honesty in comments - DPChallenge Forums

01/30/2004 10:19:38 AM · #76

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Besides, I think maybe what you mean is that some photos should not have been submitted, not that they shouldn't have been taken. Otherwise, those fashion photogs and the folks who shoot 200 rolls for National Geographic in order to get 10 dcent pictures must be REALLY bad.

No, you misunderstand. There are times when simply the right thing to do is not to take the shot. It takes a while to learn when that is. That is very different from taking a large number of shots at the right time to capture one decisive moment.

But constructive critique on many of the images I've seen would be to actually look at the picture and ask yourself is this at all interesting ? Would anyone want to see it ? Should I have bothered ? There is a level beyond that were you should question if you should keep it or not, and a level even further beyond that were you should consider if you should submit it to a contest or not.

i've taken a lot of shots that I've realised in hindsight shouldn't have been taken. I've learned a great deal from those. But if you think everything is equally good and worthy, you don't learn anything from it.

I'd also take issue at the idea that this is an 'educational site' We can all point the comment in the about box that says it was set up to learn how to be better photographers, but that doesn't in and of its self make it an educational site. I don't see a whole lot teaching going on. Challanges expose you to new concepts and are aimed at forcing you to try new things - if every week you grab a new nick-nack and reshoot it in the same trite way - you don't learn anything. The fact that the process of doing new challenges happens to be educational does not automatically make this an 'educational site' in the same way that I learn new things every day going through life, but I'm not in an 'educational institution'. You can learn a lot here. If it was an educational site someone somewhere on it would be trying to teach things - I haven't seen much of that at all. It is a contest.

01/30/2004 10:22:26 AM · #77

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I believe your data and conclusion are projections on your part, and are not completely based in fact. For example, I have marked as "helpful" a large number of rude or critical comments, if I can at least tell that the complainant is talking about MY picture and not "bad" pictures in general.

the conclusions I've drawn are from the various people who've given bad feedback being publically torn appart or asked to leave the site for telling the truth. The various responses here also seem to indicate people don't want comments that are honest. And yes it is the truth - in my opinion. Not gods, not some other deity. Just my honest opinion. That's why it would have my name beside it. Fluffy phrasing or not.

I don't think you should have bothered.

You shouldn't have bothered.

I really dont see much difference between those two statements - they will both get written off as pompous conceit or arrogance.

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

01/30/2004 10:25:07 AM · #78

Originally posted by jonpink:

So remember some people on here are very new to photography and may be at a different stage to you. I am sure Gordon that you have taken some stinkers in your time - only to realise afterwards that you shouldn't have taken it?

YES absolutely - that's the point. If everyone told me that oh it was really good, if I'd just changed the light a little bit or upped the exposure, I'd have learned nothing. I'd think I was doing pretty good and kept shooting the same crap.

But people didn't do that - they told me that it sucked. I realised that it shouldn't have been taken. I learned from that understanding. I started to learn what are the things that make good photographs and bad photographs. (and yes there are things that can be called a bad photograph! It isn't a crime against humanity to acknowledge that some pictures are crap. In fact its the first step to learning!)

geewhy

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

01/30/2004 10:30:10 AM · #79

[quote=jonpink]
I think even a 'you shouldn't have bothered' is better than giving a 1 and running away without explanation.

I don`t think we`re in total disagreement on this..I just think that if you prefer to give an explanation for your 1 then why not be as positive as possible. Personally, I would rather give the 1 and run away, than be rude, totally negative or as in some cases.. abusive.

Just to clarify things..I am not saying that you should not criticise..after all that`s why the majority of us are submitting images on this site and it is the only way to learn.
Gordon

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/30/2004 10:44:10 AM · #80

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Besides, I think maybe what you mean is that some photos should not have been submitted, not that they shouldn't have been taken. Otherwise, those fashion photogs and the folks who shoot 200 rolls for National Geographic in order to get 10 dcent pictures must be REALLY bad.

No, you misunderstand. There are times when simply the right thing to do is not to take the shot. It takes a while to learn when that is. That is very different from taking a large number of shots at the right time to capture one decisive moment.

Of course ... it's too early and I have to go to work and haven't had enough coffee so I'm giving you a hard time. Sorry.

Originally posted by Gordon:

... You can learn a lot here. If it was an educational site someone somewhere on it would be trying to teach things - I haven't seen much of that at all. It is a contest.

dwoolridge

01/30/2004 10:57:56 AM · #81

Yeah, maybe people should have to qualify to enter challenges. There are so many images where the photographer has admitted it to be a last minute entry, like it was some crime to not submit to a challenge.

I discovered early on that while I'm not a very good photographer and though I do enjoy it, I take absolutely awful challenge pictures.

I think part of the difficulty is that once you put in the effort to get the shot (set-up, travel, etc.), you just can't bring yourself to throw all that effort away by not submitting at all.

I'd like to see an experiment where challenges have a qualifying round. A hierarchical system (I don't mean tiered challenges) would be fairly efficient.

01/30/2004 11:29:43 AM · #82

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Of course ... it's too early and I have to go to work and haven't had enough coffee so I'm giving you a hard time. Sorry.

s'okay, I didn't have any milk to make coffee at all this morning :(

Originally posted by Gordon:

... You can learn a lot here. If it was an educational site someone somewhere on it would be trying to teach things - I haven't seen much of that at all. It is a contest.

I think it's both. I see teaching going on here all the time, just not "classes" -- although I'd make the case that every challenge is a calss or workshop or assignment. You think your recent posts on the DigiMarc system didn't "teach" something useful to a bunch of people? I think the "contest" is a tool to "make learning fun" -- a key precept in successful educational systems (IMO). [/quote]

Like I said in the bits you omited - just because participating here can be educational and you can learn things, is not the same as a site that would be considered an educational site.

not all learning opportunities happen in school. It is a matter of emphasis - is this a challenge/ contest that also happens to have a rich community that everyone has a lot to learn from, or is it a learning site that happens to use a contest as a means to make the learning fun ?

I know my bias is towards the former view and I know your bias is towards the latter.

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

01/30/2004 11:34:37 AM · #83

Originally posted by dwoolridge:

Like all scores under 4 in the first few days get kicked out ? You get voted off the island if you don't garner enough respect from your peer group early on ?

From a contest perspective this makes great sense.

From a learning site perspective it would be wrong, as there should be a 'no photograph left behind' policy to ensure every image gets a fair chance at a comment. However, the practical reality is that the 3 and under or 4 and under pictures don't often get useful comments anyway (I still think a link to amazon, to buy the 'kodak guide to great photographs' would be a better and more valuable solution.

Sure there are one or two great images that float to the bottom of the pile, usually for being massively off topic for the challenge, but in general having a cut-off point would be a great feature.

It would reduce the amount of bad images that people have to wade through to see the 'good stuff' (if you wait until after the cut-off period.

It would mean the better images might get more consideration and more comments.

It would give another level of achievement for those who are scoring at the lower levels - the sense of 'I survived the cut' I'm getting better would be reinforced.

The actual threshold can be varied obviously - it doesn't have to be '4'

it could be drop the bottom 25% on the second day, the next quarter on the fourth day and down to the last 25% of the original entries by the last couple of days, or similar.

Message edited by author 2004-01-30 11:35:32.

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

01/30/2004 11:40:02 AM · #84

Originally posted by Gordon:

it could be drop the bottom 25% on the second day, the next quarter on the fourth day and down to the last 25% of the original entries by the last couple of days, or similar.

That's quite a nice idea. I am sure it will also gain interest and more comments as it progresses through the 'rounds'.

BurgyBoy

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

01/30/2004 11:50:09 AM · #85

I think what most people want is CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I don't think that 'try reading an introductory photography book' or 'try looking at your pictures - really looking' qualifies as constructive.

You might as well just say "You suck!" and move on. Most people want tips and/or hints that might help improve their photos. The reason people ask for opinions is to attempt to draw on other's experiences and learn from them.

Try giving some helpful advice. Otherwise, to paraphrase Mom's old saying: "If you can't say something nice, or at least helpful, don't say anything at all."

Just my opinion,

Burgy.

sn4psh07

Canon EOS-10D

01/30/2004 11:56:31 AM · #86

Originally posted by jonpink:

Originally posted by Gordon:
it could be drop the bottom 25% on the second day, the next quarter on the fourth day and down to the last 25% of the original entries by the last couple of days, or similar.

That's quite a nice idea. I am sure it will also gain interest and more comments as it progresses through the 'rounds'.

Yes it is, but the critique club should then be forced to help those who get kicked so they too can improve -- else I'll never get better for one :)

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8

01/30/2004 12:07:10 PM · #87

Originally posted by BurgyBoy:

So in my experience, I improved the most by reading books and looking at pictures - really looking at them. Its all too easy to get caught up in what you think the picture looks like, without actually noticing all the really obvious things that are wrong with them.

pcody

Canon PowerShot G6

01/30/2004 12:08:19 PM · #88

But who would be voting in the first days?
What I like about this site is the mix of skill levels in all the challenges, and also the many different ways of expressing the topic.
There are some people that only want to hear good things about their picture and some that want to learn from their mistakes.
What might be interesting and would not involve any programing on the site, would be for people to add a letter code to their title. BH for "brutally honest" or TMIN for "tell me it's nice". That way, the commenter could sort out the pictures that would benefit from a critique and pass by the ones that wouldn't. And also cut down on the defensive pm's sent out by disgruntled photographers.
I'm happy to be able to read the forums and getting comments on my pictures(even ones on cats and trite figurines).

dwoolridge

01/30/2004 12:10:48 PM · #89

Originally posted by Gordon:

The actual threshold can be varied obviously - it doesn't have to be '4'

it could be drop the bottom 25% on the second day, the next quarter on the fourth day and down to the last 25% of the original entries by the last couple of days, or similar.

Yeah, it certainly subtracts from the learning aspects, but I think most learning happens as a side of effect of comments/forum posts (and plenty of motivation on the photographer's part). It's certainly not there by design.

As far as details, the "rounds of elimination" you mentioned is pretty effective, but there is the problem of enough eyes seeing each image.

Personally, I'd rather see a system whereby anyone can (anonymously?) transfer "qualifier round" votes to others (proxy vote). You'd have a big tree of proxied votes, but the voters would never really know how many votes they were casting and anyone in the tree could cast their own vote (the proxy is a default, not set in stone). This would enable a few (top-level) voters to make big sweeping cuts through the image pile, but everyone has the opportunity to be involved.

The goal is to reduce the final set of images to a handful (25 or less); these would be voted on individually.

I find that when I'm voting I end up throwing plenty of images in the "didn't make the cut" pile, which is in the 2-5 pile. I don't know about other people, but with so many images, I just don't make the effort to distinguish between a 3, a 4, or a 5. I make finer adjustments in the upper ranges, taking a much closer look at each image, and making use of the full range of points there.

Then again, it's all easy to say.

Message edited by author 2004-01-30 12:12:24.

Koriyama

Nikon D200

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

01/30/2004 09:12:35 PM · #90

I can see where Gordon is coming from. As a tough taskmaster on myself, I also would prefer to hear direct, negative comments. And, like Gordon, I've learnt far more about photography by looking at other shots critically and reading as much as I can get my hands on.

But we're all different. We all have different learning styles and learning needs. What's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander, so to speak. I've said this before and most likely I'll repeat this again: when we don't know the people we're dealing with in this anonymus internet, we need to be more careful about our actions, not less. Treating everyone the same just indicates a self-absorbed personality using the impersonality of the screen as a self-extension, rather that seeing the interlocuters as real people.

I've decided that, for a trial period, every time I vote and comment, I'll make my true feelings open.