So you want to shoot sports? - DPChallenge Forums

03/16/2010 09:44:45 PM · #51

Originally posted by MattO:

You can not use burst and any strobes that I'm aware of. Recycle time is about a second and a half from full power. I use AC power for my strobes. When I go on location with no power I use my 580EXII's.

Matt

So you've never tried something like

PhotoDave suggests here?

ETA: I should clarify that full power isn't a necessity... I'm curious to see what the HIGHEST power with a very high recycle speed would be.

Message edited by author 2010-03-16 21:45:39.

03/16/2010 09:49:28 PM · #52

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by MattO:

You can not use burst and any strobes that I'm aware of. Recycle time is about a second and a half from full power. I use AC power for my strobes. When I go on location with no power I use my 580EXII's.

Matt

So you've never tried something like PhotoDave suggests here?

ETA: I should clarify that full power isn't a necessity... I'm curious to see what the HIGHEST power with a very high recycle speed would be.

No I never have and have never found myself in the sort of situation where I shoot as to where I would need to try.

Matt

03/16/2010 10:03:48 PM · #53

Thanks for the answers! Very helpful.

03/17/2010 12:02:57 AM · #54

Originally posted by MattO:

No I never have and have never found myself in the sort of situation where I shoot as to where I would need to try.

Matt

The specific application I'm considering is for bmx street/skatepark photography. To properly capture tricks, it's often necessary for sequences. The sun here is very harsh during the day and there are typically zero clouds for diffusion, so a fill is necessary. I've tried using my SB900's, with limited success. I've considered maybe using a Quantum pack to speed up my recycle time, but I'm looking at what my other options might be.
I've done very little so far, but it's something of interest for me.
Do you know of any other possible solutions for lighting? Portability is preferred but not a necessity (obviously, since I've considered the Vagabond/AB approach).
I shot this one in the morning, when the sun was in an appropriate spot, but I'd really prefer to not be at the whim of the sun if at all possible.

03/17/2010 12:09:45 AM · #55

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by MattO:

No I never have and have never found myself in the sort of situation where I shoot as to where I would need to try.

Matt

The specific application I'm considering is for bmx street/skatepark photography. To properly capture tricks, it's often necessary for sequences. The sun here is very harsh during the day and there are typically zero clouds for diffusion, so a fill is necessary. I've tried using my SB900's, with limited success. I've considered maybe using a Quantum pack to speed up my recycle time, but I'm looking at what my other options might be.
I've done very little so far, but it's something of interest for me.
Do you know of any other possible solutions for lighting? Portability is preferred but not a necessity (obviously, since I've considered the Vagabond/AB approach).
I shot this one in the morning, when the sun was in an appropriate spot, but I'd really prefer to not be at the whim of the sun if at all possible.

You realize anything off camera is going to keep your shutter speed down right? I'm not sure what the sync speed of off camera flash is on the D300. Faster action will require you to overpower ambient by two stops to allow the light to stop the action. If all you are looking for is fill then you could do on camera with a battery pack, rather then iTTL or whatever Nikon calls it, meter it manually to prevent the pre-flash from firing and just fire it in full manual mode at whatever it needs. iTTL pre-flash actually takes more power and slows down recycle times.

Matt

03/17/2010 12:53:41 AM · #56

I'm interested in Alienbees precisely because they would afford me the power to overpower the sun so I could avoid the issue of the sync speed. I'd like the light to be more dynamic than just on axis. With my two SB900's, I can provide enough light to kill the ambient but they're firing at very high power and cannot recycle (and realistically may hit thermal cutoff even if they could), so sequences are not an option. Because the AB's provide so much more power, I'm hoping to be able to overpower things without firing at full power, keeping recycle time up. If I can determine what power setting the AB's can sustain such lighting, I can determine if they provide enough light for my needs.

ETA: Another thing is that I've read conflicting reports on if AB's duration is even fast enough in the first place... some say "definitely" some say "no way." What have your experiences been for duration/freezing action?

Message edited by author 2010-03-17 01:07:29.

03/17/2010 06:46:04 AM · #57

Here is a good article on this subject, Spiritualspatula. Zack Arias compares the possible options in portable battery powered strobes. The max strobe sync on the Canon 5D Mk 1 is 1/160 (claimed 1/200 but there is evidence this is not so) and the Nikon is 1/250.

03/17/2010 09:11:23 AM · #58

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

I think you are going to be disappointed in the answers. You will def have to have a couple of AB800 to overpower ambient and have any kind of recycle time. Stopping the action is not an issue with AB's as long as you over power ambient by 2 stops. the problem is you are trying to overpower one big ambient light with them in the sun. The AB800 are 320ws strobes that from full power will recharge in 1 second. the AB400 will recharge in .5 seconds but are in no way able to overpower ambient without using multiples of them. The most powerful AB1600 will overpower ambient on even the brightest days with a single unit, however their recycle time is longest of any AB at 2 full seconds from full discharge to ready, the AB800s also have the fastest "on time" of any AB, which is the reason they are the choice of most sports photographers who strobe. I had 1600's to start and while power they are slower to recycle and also have a longer "on time" then the 800's

Matt

03/17/2010 10:31:40 AM · #59

matt, could you detail some of the specs for your strobing?

what are the watt-second specs for the various AB units?

can you adjust the watt-seconds, or is it fixed?

are there alternative portable power sources than just the vagabonds?

do the ABs come with any type of bulb guard to catch the glass if one blows?

have you ever had to show proof of insurance before setting up your strobes?

have you considered getting a few more strobes and setting up one unit in each corner?

what type of remotes are you using?

what's the maximum distance you can get, line of site, from your units?

are you eye-fi-ing?

if so, what's the maximum distance you can get, line of site, from your laptop?

if so, are you using eye-fi with LR?

thanks!

Message edited by author 2010-03-17 10:32:48.

03/17/2010 11:11:37 AM · #60

Here is a good article and video on shooting bursts with strobes by Chase Jarvis. Not something for the basketball court though ;-)

Skip, if you check the link I put in my post above, you would see a good article on the various possibilities for strobe shooting with portable power, apart from the AB Vagabond option.

Message edited by author 2010-03-17 11:17:41.

03/17/2010 11:25:13 AM · #61

Originally posted by pineapple:

The huge difference in what you see in those video's is they are shooting in near dark conditions, hardly any ambient to overcome. you could light them at 1/32 or 1/16th power. You can't do that in a gym where ambient is much higher, and certainly not where you are overpowering the sun.

Matt

03/17/2010 11:26:02 AM · #62

Originally posted by Skip:

Skip lots of questions here and I'll go through them one at a time and answer them tonight when I can sit down uninterrupted by this thing I hate called a day job that pays most of my bills. :D

Matt

03/17/2010 11:32:01 AM · #63

True about lighting in high ambient sunny conditions, Matt. Just chucking in some added detail that might be of use since it is a wide subject this one.

Also worth considering are the Radio Poppers, though I use Pocket Wizards myself.

Here is an article about high speed sync using Radio Poppers an AlienBee light and a Canon camera.

Message edited by author 2010-03-17 11:32:17.

03/17/2010 11:54:07 AM · #64

Originally posted by pineapple:

I don't mean to sound as though I don't appreciate the input, I'm certainly not the end all source for information, far from it. I just want to make sure that Spiritspatula doesn't think buying that setup will get him what he wants, when the enviroments are so far apart. Any input in this thread is good.

BTW I use AlienBee Cybersyncs to fire both my remote 580EXII's and my AB and have never had a misfire even at great distances.

Matt

03/17/2010 08:45:12 PM · #65

Originally posted by Skip:

matt, could you detail some of the specs for your strobing?

I use two AB800's at one location. Two 580EXII's at another, and all three 580EXII's at
another location. Depending on the size of the gym, the type of ceiling it has, and what type
of ambient lighting I am dealing with.

Originally posted by Skip:

what are the watt-second specs for the various AB units?

At the risk of copy and pasting information. That information can be found here

Originally posted by Skip:

can you adjust the watt-seconds, or is it fixed?

They are uber adjustable. 6 full stops from full down to 1/32 power.

Originally posted by Skip:

are there alternative portable power sources than just the vagabonds?

Yes there are, however I'm not using any power sources besides A/C when I go to locations that
I don't have access to power I use my 580EXII's

Originally posted by Skip:

do the ABs come with any type of bulb guard to catch the glass if one blows?

No but you can easily make one out of thin lexan and install it yourself.

Originally posted by Skip:

have you ever had to show proof of insurance before setting up your strobes?

Yes the local JUCO requires that I keep a current proof of liability coverage(2 Million min) on file with the SID
And every high school AD that I have shot in has asked that question when I've approached them seeking permission
to mount my strobes. BTW this is done ahead of time and not on game day. I even was asked at one school to come on
a different day and demonstrate what I would be doing so they could see it.

Originally posted by Skip:

have you considered getting a few more strobes and setting up one unit in each corner?

Yes however you run the risk of having one of them in your photo which I don't really like.

Originally posted by Skip:

what type of remotes are you using?

AB Cybersyncs and they are amazingly reliable, never a misfire while shooting. And only had one case of channel
interference

Originally posted by Skip:

what's the maximum distance you can get, line of site, from your units?

At the largest gym I shoot at my strobes are 120 feet or so from me, but I have tested distance and have fired them from
300 foot consistently

Originally posted by Skip:

are you eye-fi-ing?

Originally posted by Skip:

if so, what's the maximum distance you can get, line of site, from your laptop?

see above

Originally posted by Skip:

if so, are you using eye-fi with LR?

again no

Originally posted by Skip:

thanks!

You are welcome. It seems odd to answer questions from someone I look up to in the sports photography world.
Please join in when you can, I know I learned a lot from your knowledge when I started up.

Matt

Message edited by author 2010-03-17 20:46:52.

03/17/2010 08:56:35 PM · #66

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by pineapple:
True about lighting in high ambient sunny conditions, Matt. Just chucking in some added detail that might be of use since it is a wide subject this one.

Also worth considering are the Radio Poppers, though I use Pocket Wizards myself.

Here is an article about high speed sync using Radio Poppers an AlienBee light and a Canon camera.

I don't mean to sound as though I don't appreciate the input, I'm certainly not the end all source for information, far from it. I just want to make sure that Spiritspatula doesn't think buying that setup will get him what he wants, when the enviroments are so far apart. Any input in this thread is good.

BTW I use AlienBee Cybersyncs to fire both my remote 580EXII's and my AB and have never had a misfire even at great distances.

Matt

Thanks both of you for the info and links. I had seen the Jarvis one already, but not that Arias link. I believe I have an understanding of WHAT I need to do... it's just a question of how or if I can do it without selling my soul (the answer is looking like no). Up until now, I've been doing some poking around trying to find people doing what I'm talking about and trying to figure out what they're using based on equipment that's visible in videos and other shots, and it's been an obviously difficult task to determine what exactly they were using. Thanks again for all the insight.

03/17/2010 09:29:44 PM · #67

Thanks, Matt!

Originally posted by MattO:

It seems odd to answer questions from someone I look up to in the sports photography world.

Crack me up, dude...I really *don't* know it all ;-) And the handful of times of used a strobe in a gym didn't really thrill me.

However, this is something I'm looking into for the future. The main thing for me is being NCAA compliant:

Originally posted by NCAA Strobe Policy:

Strobe lights for a conventional (non-dome) arena must not exceed 2400 watt-seconds for each power pack, and the flash duration should be less than 1/1000-second. A typical approved installation consists of four power packs with four-tube heads on each pack. In the instance of unusually high-ceilinged buildings or domes, additional power units and strobe heads may be used if they produce equivalent light on the court and the flash duration meets the criteria.

How do you think the ABs marry up to the above? Can you control the duration?

03/17/2010 09:37:02 PM · #68

Originally posted by Skip:

Thanks, Matt!
Originally posted by MattO:
It seems odd to answer questions from someone I look up to in the sports photography world.

Crack me up, dude...I really *don't* know it all ;-) And the handful of times of used a strobe in a gym didn't really thrill me.

However, this is something I'm looking into for the future. The main thing for me is being NCAA compliant:
Originally posted by NCAA Strobe Policy:
Strobe lights for a conventional (non-dome) arena must not exceed 2400 watt-seconds for each power pack, and the flash duration should be less than 1/1000-second. A typical approved installation consists of four power packs with four-tube heads on each pack. In the instance of unusually high-ceilinged buildings or domes, additional power units and strobe heads may be used if they produce equivalent light on the court and the flash duration meets the criteria.

How do you think the ABs marry up to the above? Can you control the duration?

According to this page all but the AB1600's meet that spec. Spec page with power and duration

Matt

Edit to say the AB400 would not be powerful enough. four AB800's set in the rafters at a game one in each quadrant of the court would give you awesome coverage and DOF to spare. I'd love to ceiling mount them. But you would def. need to invest in some covers to point them down.

Message edited by author 2010-03-17 21:40:55.

03/17/2010 09:59:57 PM · #69

Originally posted by MattO:

According to this page all but the AB1600's meet that spec. Spec page with power and duration

pardon my illiteracy, but i'm not quite sure where to read the 'flash duration' on that chart. i'm really curious about how you go about controlling that, especially on ABs...

Originally posted by MattO:

Edit to say the AB400 would not be powerful enough. four AB800's set in the rafters at a game one in each quadrant of the court would give you awesome coverage and DOF to spare. I'd love to ceiling mount them. But you would def. need to invest in some covers to point them down.

i'll give you some good scoop on this tomorrow ;-)

03/17/2010 10:04:42 PM · #70

Originally posted by Skip:

Originally posted by MattO:
According to this page all but the AB1600's meet that spec. Spec page with power and duration

pardon my illiteracy, but i'm not quite sure where to read the 'flash duration' on that chart. i'm really curious about how you go about controlling that, especially on ABs...

Originally posted by MattO:
Edit to say the AB400 would not be powerful enough. four AB800's set in the rafters at a game one in each quadrant of the court would give you awesome coverage and DOF to spare. I'd love to ceiling mount them. But you would def. need to invest in some covers to point them down.

i'll give you some good scoop on this tomorrow ;-)

Here is an explanation of the Flash duration specs Flash duration explained
........................................... t.5 duration...................... t1 duration
..........................................full power-1/32 power..................full power-1/32 power
AB800 B800 (320Ws) 1/3300 second 1/1650 sec. 1/1100 sec. 1/550 sec.

Duration is controlled by raising or lowering the power setting on the strobe. Not adjustable by itself it goes up or down based on the power setting.

The AB800 actually gets faster at the more power you use odd for strobes, and opposite of what normal flash units for hotshoes do.

Matt

Message edited by author 2010-03-17 22:07:46.

MinsoPhoto

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

03/18/2010 07:13:54 PM · #71

Hi Matt. I have a question that I posted elsewhere but got referred to this thread. Basically I am going to pursue sports photography (large emphasis on baseball and soccer) and as such will be purchasing a new lens, one more suited for that style. So my choices now are the Canon 70-200mm L lenses. Either the f4L IS lens or the F2,8L (non IS) Lens. My thinking on this is that since it will be mainly used for sports and I will be using higher shutter speeds the IS is not nearly as important as the extra light with the 2.8

So would you suggest going IS with the f4 or sacraficing the IS for the f2.8? Right now the 2.8L IS is not an option.

kleski

Canon EOS-7D

03/18/2010 07:16:45 PM · #72

Originally posted by jminso:

Just looking at his profile, I'd think he'd be in agreement with Alan...all Matt has is f2.8!

03/18/2010 07:37:48 PM · #73

Between the two I would def say the 2.8 lens. However for field sports 200mm is quite short. I use my 300 with a 1.4 on my main body while the 70-200 stays on my second body while shooting baseball and soccer. When the game goes to night I just use the 300 and 70-200 both wide open.

Originally posted by jminso:

MinsoPhoto

Canon EOS-7D

03/18/2010 07:43:55 PM · #74

Thanks Matt. Yeah I realize the 200 may be a bit short but I am hoping since I will be starting with little league type stuff that will be ok to start with. Then if it starts to pan out I can get a longer lens and still have the 70-200 on a second body. Trying to start off without breaking the bank. Plus the 70-200 will be useful for other stuff as well.