So you want to shoot sports? - DPChallenge Forums

04/05/2010 09:21:28 PM · #126

Ok sorry for the delay.

Here is the gym...

as you can see on this night they have the gym turned sideways and have two basketball courts side by side to play rather then going long ways and having the college floor which I normally work on. This created a new situation for me as I've never strobed this direction, I was running late and had to do a quick guess as to what I would be needing. I used three 580EXII's fired with cybersyncs two direct and one bounced.

bounced flash at half power with battery pack to keep recycle times up.

closer look

Then I have two of these

pointed at the players. These are way up on the balcony as you can see. One on each side of the gym pointed towards the top of the key and the other bounced off the ceiling just to help fill in a bit with softer light. I ended up with too much power and the shots from the night are a bit too flashed for my taste. I prefer to not have such dark backgrounds. But as I said first night in this configuration, running late, both together make me hesitant to show these, except they are good to show you that doing it wrong you can still get shots. I should have backed my direct flashes down another 1/8 power.

Matt

04/05/2010 11:13:29 PM · #127

Many thanks for the information Matt. This thread is a great help and I really appreciate the effort you are putting into this.

Hope your dad is ok.

04/05/2010 11:19:48 PM · #128

Originally posted by MattO:

I ended up with too much power and the shots from the night are a bit too flashed for my taste. I prefer to not have such dark backgrounds. But as I said first night in this configuration, running late, both together make me hesitant to show these, except they are good to show you that doing it wrong you can still get shots. I should have backed my direct flashes down another 1/8 power.

Matt

Do you look at the histogram to gauge the amount of flash and if so do you control the flash output from the back of your camera?

Also, do you ever have any feedback from either the players or coaches that the flash output is too distracting?

04/05/2010 11:26:20 PM · #129

Originally posted by Hifi:

Originally posted by MattO:
I ended up with too much power and the shots from the night are a bit too flashed for my taste. I prefer to not have such dark backgrounds. But as I said first night in this configuration, running late, both together make me hesitant to show these, except they are good to show you that doing it wrong you can still get shots. I should have backed my direct flashes down another 1/8 power.

Matt

Do you look at the histogram to gauge the amount of flash and if so do you control the flash output from the back of your camera?

Also, do you ever have any feedback from either the players or coaches that the flash output is too distracting?

All of the off camera flashes are controlled manually, set at the flash itself. So you can see my issue with running late and not getting to use my flashmeter to check the settings, there are three flights of stairs to get to my flashes once set up. I have had one college coach in three years complain about the flash, not the players but the coach! I was later told by the SID of the college that when the team is losing, he always finds a way to stop the action and complain about something, apparently that was day in the barrel.

When I look at the back of the camera I generally look at the image then the histogram and decide if I like what I see or not. I will post a couple of the earlier shots before I backed the power the first time, the backgrounds were near black with proper exposure on the players. Some people prefer the darker backgrounds as it keeps the clutter down, I prefer to have the backgrounds more natural while still using the flashes to stop the action.

BTW Ambient in this gym is 8000ISO F2.2 and 1/400, which is the reason I use strobes in it.

Matt

04/05/2010 11:41:58 PM · #130

Originally posted by MattO:

BTW Ambient in this gym is 8000ISO F2.2 and 1/400, which is the reason I use strobes in it.

Matt

Really silly question to ask but.... - how are you checking the ambient light? I can understand that with a reading like this you would need the strobes. Are you using your flashmeter for this or through your camera? Is it a matter of pressing a button on a flash meter and getting a reading or do you need to start with a point either Aperture, ISO or Shutter and then get a reading from your starting point? Sorry about the back to basics question but I have never been able to understand this one properly.

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

04/05/2010 11:45:30 PM · #131

Originally posted by Hifi:

Originally posted by MattO:

BTW Ambient in this gym is 8000ISO F2.2 and 1/400, which is the reason I use strobes in it.

Matt

Really silly question to ask but.... - how are you checking the ambient light? I can understand that with a reading like this you would need the strobes. Are you using your flashmeter for this or through your camera? Is it a matter of pressing a button on a flash meter and getting a reading or do you need to start with a point either Aperture, ISO or Shutter and then get a reading from your starting point? Sorry about the back to basics question but I have never been able to understand this one properly.

I carry a flashmeter with me all the time I'm on assignment, as I have a habit of shooting manual all the time since backgrounds can really fool your in camera meter. I have checked it with my in camera meter and also my ambient light meter on the flashmeter. I set an ISO and shutter speed on my camera and it gives me the aperture. I'll post an ambient shot from that gym as well.

Matt

This is one of the early shots before I ran back up and turned them down a bit. You can see how dark the background is to get proper exposure on the players. The hardest thing about using strobes is placement, aiming, and adjusting them to balance your tastes out.

This is an ambient shot from that gym. ISO 6400 F2 and 1/500 and brought back a bit.

Message edited by author 2010-04-05 23:54:12.

spiritualspatula

04/05/2010 11:54:05 PM · #132

Any zoom on the direct flashes or wide open?

04/05/2010 11:54:56 PM · #133

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Hifi:

Originally posted by MattO:

BTW Ambient in this gym is 8000ISO F2.2 and 1/400, which is the reason I use strobes in it.

Matt

Really silly question to ask but.... - how are you checking the ambient light? I can understand that with a reading like this you would need the strobes. Are you using your flashmeter for this or through your camera? Is it a matter of pressing a button on a flash meter and getting a reading or do you need to start with a point either Aperture, ISO or Shutter and then get a reading from your starting point? Sorry about the back to basics question but I have never been able to understand this one properly.

I carry a flashmeter with me all the time I'm on assignment, as I have a habit of shooting manual all the time since backgrounds can really fool your in camera meter. I have checked it with my in camera meter and also my ambient light meter on the flashmeter. I set an ISO and shutter speed on my camera and it gives me the aperture. I'll post an ambient shot from that gym as well.

Matt

04/05/2010 11:56:32 PM · #134

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Any zoom on the direct flashes or wide open?

That is something else I work with on the flashes. I try to zoom them to optimize the area I intend on shooting. The directs on these were set at 50MM at the beginning and I backed them back to 35MM when I lowered the power on them. Going back the next time I'd probably lower the power 1/8 from when I left and zoom them back to 24MM and work on my aiming a bit more as I had a dark spot in the near court to my right where the bounce wasn't filling in.

Matt

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 XR DI-II VC LD Aspherical (IF) Zoom Lens for Canon

04/06/2010 12:00:23 AM · #135

[quote=MattO]

This is one of the early shots before I ran back up and turned them down a bit. You can see how dark the background is to get proper exposure on the players. The hardest thing about using strobes is placement, aiming, and adjusting them to balance your tastes out.

Am I correct in that by turning down the strobes the ambient light then plays a bigger part in the exposure because the shutter speed isn't as fast. Or am I totally confusing the issue now?

Eagle40Fox2

Canon EOS-7D

04/06/2010 12:02:48 AM · #136

First time doing action shots. How well did I do? Water sports count right?

Message edited by author 2010-04-06 00:03:20.

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

04/06/2010 12:05:12 AM · #137

Originally posted by Hifi:

Many thanks for that Matt - I was in the right direction on how I would do it. Do you use this meter for outdoor sports as well? I have often gone to do this but have hesitated at the last moment and relied on shooting in AV and watching my shutter speeds and adjusting accordingly as required to remain at a shutter speed fast enough to capture the action I require. [/quote]

I do use my flash meter outdoors on occasion as well. Especially when I'm shooting field sports where the background might be a dark shaded area with a bright field in front of it where I'm shooting. Enough of those shadows in the back and you blow out your players faces really easy. Also with several of our schools using those bright silver bleachers the sun shining on them will really make you underexpose your players with all of that bright reflective surfaces going towards your meter at times. I have tried to avoid AV as much as possible due to that.

The biggest thing I use now though is the histogram and my LCD on the back and judge based on what I know the differences between my LCD brightness and what I see on my monitor. I've shot 6100 images with my new 1DMKIV since Jan 30th when I got it and another 3000 or so with my 1DMKIII backup camera. So you get to know what you see and how it will look on the monitor. I would NEVER rely just on what I see on the camera LCD without knowing in my mind what it will look like on the monitor of the PC.

Matt

spiritualspatula

04/06/2010 12:13:11 AM · #138

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Any zoom on the direct flashes or wide open?

That is something else I work with on the flashes. I try to zoom them to optimize the area I intend on shooting. The directs on these were set at 50MM at the beginning and I backed them back to 35MM when I lowered the power on them. Going back the next time I'd probably lower the power 1/8 from when I left and zoom them back to 24MM and work on my aiming a bit more as I had a dark spot in the near court to my right where the bounce wasn't filling in.

Matt

Sweet- thanks, I was wondering what sort of coverage you'd get at that distance since I've never done it that far off. Do you just prefer the look of the two direct + 1 bounce 580's? What applications have you used your AB800 for (and do you use any modifiers on it?)? Were you using Quantum packs or other?

04/06/2010 12:13:21 AM · #139

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Hifi:

I carry a flashmeter with me all the time I'm on assignment, as I have a habit of shooting manual all the time since backgrounds can really fool your in camera meter. I have checked it with my in camera meter and also my ambient light meter on the flashmeter. I set an ISO and shutter speed on my camera and it gives me the aperture. I'll post an ambient shot from that gym as well.

Matt

Many thanks for that Matt - I was in the right direction on how I would do it. Do you use this meter for outdoor sports as well? I have often gone to do this but have hesitated at the last moment and relied on shooting in AV and watching my shutter speeds and adjusting accordingly as required to remain at a shutter speed fast enough to capture the action I require.

I do use my flash meter outdoors on occasion as well. Especially when I'm shooting field sports where the background might be a dark shaded area with a bright field in front of it where I'm shooting. Enough of those shadows in the back and you blow out your players faces really easy. Also with several of our schools using those bright silver bleachers the sun shining on them will really make you underexpose your players with all of that bright reflective surfaces going towards your meter at times. I have tried to avoid AV as much as possible due to that.

The biggest thing I use now though is the histogram and my LCD on the back and judge based on what I know the differences between my LCD brightness and what I see on my monitor. I've shot 6100 images with my new 1DMKIV since Jan 30th when I got it and another 3000 or so with my 1DMKIII backup camera. So you get to know what you see and how it will look on the monitor. I would NEVER rely just on what I see on the camera LCD without knowing in my mind what it will look like on the monitor of the PC.

Matt [/quote]

You have put a few thousand more clicks on your camera than I have. Our winter season is only just starting again this weekend so I hopefully will soon catch up with the clicks. We don't have the issue with bleachers here, mostly the games we shoot it is a matter of bring your own chair or sit on the ground. The dark backgrounds are my main issue along with shadows across the fields. I have been wanting to move over to manual shooting but have been uncertain until now. I will give it a go with weekend and see what the results are.

Once again many thanks for your very thorough input into this thread. It is greatly appreciated.

04/06/2010 12:16:19 AM · #140

Originally posted by Hifi:

Originally posted by MattO:

This is one of the early shots before I ran back up and turned them down a bit. You can see how dark the background is to get proper exposure on the players. The hardest thing about using strobes is placement, aiming, and adjusting them to balance your tastes out.

Am I correct in that by turning down the strobes the ambient light then plays a bigger part in the exposure because the shutter speed isn't as fast. Or am I totally confusing the issue now?

I never change my shutter speed. When using strobes the flash stops the action because of its ability to go on and off so fast. If you slow your shutter speed down you will allow more ambient in, but also possibly get some motion blur in the hands and feet which are the fastest moving parts of the body.

When I shoot sports I try to stay 2 stops above ambient, that stops the action prevents motion blur, but also allows a bit more natural look of the rest as it fades, rather then having so much light on the subjects that the background doesn't have enough to let it be seen.

With your external flash on your camera set it to 1/2 power and take a photo of something 5 foot from you changing your aperture until you get proper exposure on it, your background likely went very dark that didn't get lite up by the flash, now turn it down to 1/8 power and set your aperture to get proper exposure on the subject subject then see how the background is lighter. And the only thing you did was dial up your flash and use a smaller aperture and dial down your flash and use a larger aperture. Once you see it in an example like that it will click I'm sure.

Matt

04/06/2010 12:20:41 AM · #141

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Any zoom on the direct flashes or wide open?

That is something else I work with on the flashes. I try to zoom them to optimize the area I intend on shooting. The directs on these were set at 50MM at the beginning and I backed them back to 35MM when I lowered the power on them. Going back the next time I'd probably lower the power 1/8 from when I left and zoom them back to 24MM and work on my aiming a bit more as I had a dark spot in the near court to my right where the bounce wasn't filling in.

Matt

Sweet- thanks, I was wondering what sort of coverage you'd get at that distance since I've never done it that far off. Do you just prefer the look of the two direct + 1 bounce 580's? What applications have you used your AB800 for (and do you use any modifiers on it?)? Were you using Quantum packs or other?

I get much better coverage with my AB800's then I do with my flashes, however portability is more of an issue. As I said earlier I have three flights of stairs to climb to get up to set them up and again to take them down. Each time carrying strobes, cords, mounts, safety cables, and remote systems. i am learning to give away a little image quality to make it easier on me physically. For the big games I will still bring out the AB800's just for image quality, but for quickie assignments like this I'll compromise a bit. If these were being shot for parents rather then for the paper, image quality would take precedents.

Matt

Edit to add I use just the standard 7" reflectors and bounce them off the ceiling and I cheat a bit of direct in as well since that ceiling is super busy and "eats" a stop or so of light. I used to light the entire place with a couple of AB1600's and I could bounce and shoot both ends at the same time, but the recycle time on those strobes are a bit long in the tooth for sports.

Message edited by author 2010-04-06 00:22:58.

04/06/2010 12:35:09 AM · #142

Originally posted by Eagle40Fox2:

First time doing action shots. How well did I do? Water sports count right?

I'll assume based on the EXIF that is attached to the images that you used a 70-300 consumer lens right? I much prefer the middle image and would have preferred to have the same framing/zoom on the other shots as well. The background becomes too in focus and distracts from the subject. I really prefer if at all possible to shoot tight and blow out the background. And even at F5.6 on the middle image you can see how much more aesthetic the background is on that image then on the other two. While the others show a bit more of what is happening, there isn't that much that those backgrounds and wider views show me about what is happening then the middle one. If I were to go wide on that, I'd want to know what is pulling him? I still don't know, from the angle it looks like a low flying plane might be and maybe it is, but since it doesn't tell me, I'd probably just shoot real tight on the others to showcase the subject.

Matt

04/06/2010 09:00:16 PM · #143

So today I was back outside, in the "Hold on to your hat" wind gusts of 30MPH so a great day to be on the golf course right? Well you don't get to choose your weather when the assignments fall. So here are a few from today. I'll add the exif to them in a bit.

Some things to keep in mind while viewing these images. Look at the backgrounds and the foregrounds. Look at the angle of the sun and the clothes they are wearing. Think about how your camera might meter these in the mode you normally shoot. Would it be fooled to overexpose? Underexpose? would it nail exposure. Notice the different angles that I shot at, does it help or hurt the image? Would or could you do anything to make it better without putting yourself or your equipment in harms way, or impede the game that is being played.

Granted these are high school kids and I have open access unlike the big boys shooting the pros, so consider the level you would be shooting in all of this as well. Also there were 4 levels of players in the varsity kids I covered today. I can take more chances with where I position myself with the 1 and 2 level players as compared to the 3-4 level players since they are generally more in control of their placement.

Matt

04/07/2010 11:54:13 PM · #144

Today's assignment brings you to a lower level of competition. This is Junior high Track. I see very little of it, once or twice a year we shoot "the little kiddies" as my editor says. So you have to lower your expectations on the amount of action you will get. At this age they are usually more worried about what the boys/girls are doing then actually competing. So be on the look out for real action, sometimes it will surprise you!

I specifically shot the last two to show you how the difference in the angle you shoot can make things more dramatic. Both of these girls are clearing the same height bar(which isn't all that high in reality), both of these shots are full frame shots with no crop. Image 945 to me gives a greater sense of height with the kid out of the background and nothing to give it a sense of how high it is.

Matt

Dudski

Nikon D700

07/26/2010 03:44:03 PM · #145

Originally posted by MattO:

You realize anything off camera is going to keep your shutter speed down right? I'm not sure what the sync speed of off camera flash is on the D300. Faster action will require you to overpower ambient by two stops to allow the light to stop the action. If all you are looking for is fill then you could do on camera with a battery pack, rather then iTTL or whatever Nikon calls it, meter it manually to prevent the pre-flash from firing and just fire it in full manual mode at whatever it needs. iTTL pre-flash actually takes more power and slows down recycle times.

Matt

Hi Matt (and others!),

Time to revive this thread with some photos and questions.

I've got a small project going where a friend has asked me to help him out with getting photos for a bike catalogue. We're both into all types of biking (from road to dirt jumping to downhill) and so we've got some good opportunities and locations to shoot. This isn't a one-shot deal, fortunately, so we always have the opportunity to go back and re-shoot spots, etc.

Before we start, I have very little experience shooting sports and so all comments, good and bad, are welcome! (note that the edits are a little kooky for the moment, I was just kinda playing around).
Other than the lenses I own, I've got 2 SB-600 flashes which I can fire remotely with the D200.

My main question, for the moment, is the following: how in the heck do I work around this 1/250s sync shutter speed?! Off-camera flash is gives a much better effect and even at full power on the SB-600, shutter speeds faster than 1/250 are useless (forget this high-speed sync mumbo jumbo!) I'm finding that for the shots I was doing yesterday, I need around 1/1000s to freeze all motion. From what I understand from your post above, there isn't much I can do..

Thanks!

Message edited by author 2010-07-26 15:45:14.

Dudski

Nikon D700

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

07/26/2010 07:42:30 PM · #146

badump

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

07/26/2010 09:49:28 PM · #147

Originally posted by Dudski:

My main question, for the moment, is the following: how in the heck do I work around this 1/250s sync shutter speed?! Off-camera flash is gives a much better effect and even at full power on the SB-600, shutter speeds faster than 1/250 are useless ...

I say ditch the strobes, get a set or two of 500W or 1000W halogen worklights from your nearest discount building supply shop, and shoot at 1/1000 under constant lighting. Then carefully plan your setups and shoot one stunt at a time. Perhaps think of it more like shooting a movie ...

jmsetzler

Sony Alpha a6000

Sony 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 E-mount

07/26/2010 09:53:50 PM · #148

Originally posted by Dudski:

(forget this high-speed sync mumbo jumbo!)

Why? It's a quite effective way to use your speedlights.

spiritualspatula

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

07/27/2010 03:00:46 AM · #149

Originally posted by jmsetzler:

Originally posted by Dudski:
(forget this high-speed sync mumbo jumbo!)

Why? It's a quite effective way to use your speedlights.

It is and it isn't. My experience trying to shoot similar scenes has been that once you get up to around 1/1000 your power has diminished hugely so you either need to be very, very close or have multiple strobes (and you can't use high speed sync off camera unless you use either an SB900/800 as commander or an SU800...in camera commander doesn't support it)

GeneralE's idea isn't bad, but your portability goes right out the window once you add in the giant battery pack you'll be lugging.
How remote are your shooting areas? What sort of access do they have? Will you be packing/riding gear in, or does it all have road access? These are important questions before you look into any other solutions.
Here are your options- use high speed sync with many flashes. This means you can only use Nikon SB600/800/900's for your flashes, and they are rather pricey You can keep your shutter where you want it though. Also consider using some friends as assistants to hold reflectors. You can get those car window reflectors real cheap and use a couple people aiming them to help things a lot (depends on your light... your shots look cloudy so not sure if this is feasible for you). You should be able to fire both SB600's off camera + add some power from your on camera flash and I'd venture to guess that's enough to overpower your ambient. You'd need two people aiming them, of course. If it isn't powerful enough, try changing the time of day.
Or you can do as Matt noted- underexpose the ambient by throwing tons of light and syncing at 1/250. Two ways I've considered doing this- getting several LP160's in addition to my SB900's in order to cut cost. This system would be very portable and relatively cost effective.
The ultimate setup that I've looked into is two Paul Buff Einstein's w/ vagabond to compliment my 900's. But then, that's a good deal of money.
Regarding your actual shots posted- I think your jumping ones are decent, but the ones carving through the berms are shot from way too high of a perspective, and it makes them look small and flat. Getting right on the rim of the berm or on the inside of it with him carving through would make for a more interesting shot. One flash firing from ahead of him, one from the side. And with that 17-55, get as close to the action as you dare. Busting out the fisheye on some of these and getting really close might make for some pretty cool shots too.

Dudski

Nikon D700