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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Anybody notice this or is it just me.
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 03/19/2004 10:59:13 AM · #1
Having submitted in well over 100 contests I have come to have a feeling for how my pictures will do in the challenges. Usually I am within a 1/2 a point of guessing my final score. I usually know when I have submitted a below or above average picture and I understand why they have scored the way they do. In the present "Parallel Lines" challenge as well as a few of the preceding contests I have been totally surprised by the lower than expected scores. I am not complaining, I am just wondering if anyone else has noticed the same. I know there are many new members and I was thinking that maybe the criteria for scores was tracking lower.
 03/19/2004 11:04:57 AM · #2
Originally posted by lnede:
Having submitted in well over 100 contests I have come to have a feeling for how my pictures will do in the challenges. Usually I am within a 1/2 a point of guessing my final score. I usually know when I have submitted a below or above average picture and I understand why they have scored the way they do. In the present "Parallel Lines" challenge as well as a few of the preceding contests I have been totally surprised by the lower than expected scores. I am not complaining, I am just wondering if anyone else has noticed the same. I know there are many new members and I was thinking that maybe the criteria for scores was tracking lower.

You would score much better if you did photo of the fence arround house!
 03/19/2004 11:07:59 AM · #3
Bill Gates recently made a large donation of computers to the mentally challenged, and the new braille monitors have made the vision impaired folk able to vote now.

LOL

chris
 03/19/2004 11:12:33 AM · #4

Originally posted by bestagents:
Bill Gates recently made a large donation of computers to the mentally challenged, and the new braille monitors have made the vision impaired folk able to vote now.

LOL

chris


Funny! I knew there had to be a reason.
 03/19/2004 11:15:57 AM · #5
In off screen challenge first two photos are technical failures and first silence photo also! No rule of thirds,subjects centered and bad cropping,makes me wonder who is voting here!
 03/19/2004 11:59:42 AM · #6
For example, My entry in the "Off Screen Expectations challenge although not one of my better efforts scored in the 50% range but only got a score of 4.79. Normally, a score in this range would be about a 5.1.
 03/19/2004 12:10:50 PM · #7
I find my scores are more fair in the member challenges than the open challenges. I think that's just the way it is. I sometimes wonder if voters who have an image submitted int he open challenge mark down really good images so theirs will score higher. This is just a guess though. I'm still new to some of this and my scores are always all over the map and never predictable. I find the member challenge comments and voting is more in line with my own feeling about my image.

Also, I noticed one comment about the rule of thirds. I think there are a few forums about this. While I do agree that the rule of thirds is a good "rule of thumb," - it's just that. My art and photography teachers always say it's the balance that's important and rule of thirds will help you get to that balance. Sometimes negative space is just as important as positive space in an image and the rule of thirds rule may apply to the negative space even more than the positive space. It all depends. THat's just the nature of art.
 03/19/2004 12:16:25 PM · #8
Originally posted by pitsaman:
You would score much better if you did photo of the fence arround house!


Done that already!


03/19/2004 12:29:54 PM · #9
Originally posted by lnede:
Having submitted in well over 100 contests I have come to have a feeling for how my pictures will do in the challenges. Usually I am within a 1/2 a point of guessing my final score. I usually know when I have submitted a below or above average picture and I understand why they have scored the way they do. In the present "Parallel Lines" challenge as well as a few of the preceding contests I have been totally surprised by the lower than expected scores. I am not complaining, I am just wondering if anyone else has noticed the same. I know there are many new members and I was thinking that maybe the criteria for scores was tracking lower.


I am a new member, but I have been monitoring the site for quite sometime now. I would agree that scores are becoming lower with time. I also find it interesting that if you view most photographers profiles, you will find that the avg. vote cast is usually lower than the avg. vote recieved. This gap is also becoming larger with time. Is this odd to anyone else?
 03/19/2004 12:42:32 PM · #10
I notice this but didn't give it much thought. I usually look at a members profile after seeing one of their pictures. When I see a photograph I like I'm interested in seeing who took it and what other pictures they have published. Usually I find several other interesting pictures when I do this. Because of this process I think I usually look at profiles of better than average photographers. I would expect their grading average to be less than their scoring average. I guess this is all subject to taste.

Message edited by author 2004-03-19 12:44:48.
 03/19/2004 12:46:39 PM · #11
I did notice the weirdest thing these days wich I'm not even sure it's mathematicaly possible. Score whas something like 5.7... something I was browsing the site and every few minutes went and clicked "update".
I noticed number of votes increasing 3 times without the score changing at all. Weird huh? Anyone better than me in math could probably tell if that's even possible, but really what are the ods of that?
 03/19/2004 12:49:58 PM · #12
It's more complicated than that. A member can also change his vote so your score could go up or down while the number of votes stay the same.
 03/19/2004 12:52:57 PM · #13
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
I did notice the weirdest thing these days wich I'm not even sure it's mathematicaly possible. Score whas something like 5.7... something I was browsing the site and every few minutes went and clicked "update".
I noticed number of votes increasing 3 times without the score changing at all. Weird huh? Anyone better than me in math could probably tell if that's even possible, but really what are the ods of that?


If my interpretation of how the scoring works is correct then it could be that the number of votes is so large, and the score recieved by the previous 3 voters was so close to the total average, that that overall score(running average) was virtually unaffected. Sort of like 1000 + 1 is approximately 1000. Please note that I am an engineer, for all of you mathematicians that are going to scold me for saying that.
 03/19/2004 12:58:49 PM · #14
Originally posted by insteps:
I notice this but didn't give it much thought. I usually look at a members profile after seeing one of their pictures. When I see a photograph I like I'm interested in seeing who took it and what other pictures they have published. Usually I find several other interesting pictures when I do this. Because of this process I think I usually look at profiles of better than average photographers. I would expect their grading average to be less than their scoring average. I guess this is all subject to taste.


Good point, but subject to taste is correct. I have found photograpers that I find are very skilled that have a higher votes cast avg. than votes recieved avg. I guess my only point is that some photographers should be aware of this when they go to vote on others photographs. Low scores = low morale, and when the photographers have low morale they probably tend to vote everyone down and then it becomes like a chain reaction. This is probably my perspective because I am going to end up in the middle or bottom on most of my entries. We are all just trying to be better photographers.
 03/19/2004 01:07:31 PM · #15
Some people are more generous with their votes than others. Last I checked I had a 6 avg receive score and a 5.1 avg vote score. I vote on almost every image, and when you have 400 photographs you'll only find a handful of very good images that rate very highly. The others that are either average or below average brings down your voting average overall as there are more of them. Not talking about me specifically, but a photographer with a high average receive likely enters consistently above average submissions and so therefore it makes more sense for them to receive the higher average as opposed to the consistently average shots in the 300+ challenges.

Or something like that..
 03/19/2004 01:15:47 PM · #16
The only thing that really bothers me is when I see a score of 1 given for a photograph that meets challenge requirements and is in focus. I don't understand how a person who is interested in photography could cast that vote.
 03/19/2004 01:16:27 PM · #17
Originally posted by moodville:
Some people are more generous with their votes than others. Last I checked I had a 6 avg receive score and a 5.1 avg vote score. I vote on almost every image, and when you have 400 photographs you'll only find a handful of very good images that rate very highly. The others that are either average or below average brings down your voting average overall as there are more of them. Not talking about me specifically, but a photographer with a high average receive likely enters consistently above average submissions and so therefore it makes more sense for them to receive the higher average as opposed to the consistently average shots in the 300+ challenges.

Or something like that..


Good Point, thank you for the clarification.
 03/19/2004 01:17:56 PM · #18
Originally posted by pitsaman:
In off screen challenge first two photos are technical failures and first silence photo also! No rule of thirds,subjects centered and bad cropping,makes me wonder who is voting here!


Are you serious, or just kidding ?

Does every picture have to adhere to strict rules, for example rules of third ? Well, I hope not. Sometimes centering a subject can be very effective.

03/19/2004 01:22:56 PM · #19
Originally posted by insteps:
The only thing that really bothers me is when I see a score of 1 given for a photograph that meets challenge requirements and is in focus. I don't understand how a person who is interested in photography could cast that vote.


I totally agree, a score of 1 can siginificantly lower an average because on a 1-10 scale it carries significan weight. However, 1's can also represent an emotional vote. Someone could be trying to lower the averages. See my previous posts for further discussion.
03/19/2004 02:49:20 PM · #20
I don't see any evidence of people voting extremely low to improve their ranking. My entry for the last challenge is an average shot and clearly in the area where people may be tempted to lower the score to improve the standing of their average shot.



However, looking at the score breakdown, no 1's, a single 2, three 3's, and the rest followed a nice curve. So at worst, 4 people out of 150 intentially voted low on my entry, and that's if I take the pompous attitude that my photo was too good to merit those scores. Fact is, some people just flat out may not have liked it. Maybe a loved one of theirs commited suicide by jumping off of a suspension bridge and my photo kindled negative emotions. Maybe some people just don't like the color red. Who know. But overall, the voting appeared quite fair. At best, everyone is hindered equally by negative votes so in the end, it works out. Well, except for the poor soul who may have gotten a ribbon by slamming other photos. I would hate to see that ribbon every time I viewed my profile and know that I had to cheat to get it. Kind of takes the wind out of the sails considering the award is strictly honorary. Then again, if you are good enough to score in the top 10, you really shouldn't feel a need to cheat.
 03/19/2004 03:00:49 PM · #21
Low scores = low morale, and when the photographers have low morale they probably tend to vote everyone down and then it becomes like a chain reaction.
I agree with this statement. I notice that some people seem to like to leave rather un necessary comments as well. That's why I don't really read them anymore I just have fun doing the challenge and then it's over and on to the next. I am making it a habit to not look at my score..I figure as long as I am happy with the image that's what counts.
 03/19/2004 03:03:46 PM · #22
I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's just you. :)

If you browse the midrange scores on the Challenge History page, you'll see dips like this going back for some time. You are right that there have been some low midrange scores the last month or so, but then they were all above 5 for the 2 months prior to that. Go back through the older challenges and you'll see dips ever couple of months. I think its just a natural occurance. Maybe the group just gets uninspired for a few challenges (and sidetracked by flaming rant threads), then come back strong.
 03/19/2004 03:09:46 PM · #23
Originally posted by ScottK:
I think its just a natural occurance. Maybe the group just gets uninspired for a few challenges (and sidetracked by flaming rant threads), then come back strong.


Could be also the nature of the challenges, some are easier to aproach, others some a magnet for clichees others are not, some are more exposed to interpretation (lots of does not meet challenge) then others.
 03/19/2004 03:45:31 PM · #24
Originally posted by pitsaman:
In off screen challenge first two photos are technical failures and first silence photo also! No rule of thirds,subjects centered and bad cropping,makes me wonder who is voting here!


The rule of thirds is supposed to have its roots in the human brain - it is not artificially created by superior photographers.

Thus - a photograph adhereing to aesthetic 'rules' will, so the theories go, appeal to most people, regardless of their artistic training.

What fascinates me about photography is its accessibility. A good photograph will grip anyone who can see, not just anyone who knows the rules that have gone into its composition. It's an incredibly populist artform.

And so: if people like a photograph, it's a good photograph - the second prize in off-screen expectation was a fantastically striking shot, by far the best in my view, regardless of its adherence to rules.

It sounds cheesy but isn't the first rule simply to try and make your audience stop and look harder?
 03/19/2004 03:53:08 PM · #25
Originally posted by pitsaman:
In off screen challenge first two photos are technical failures and first silence photo also! No rule of thirds,subjects centered and bad cropping,makes me wonder who is voting here!


As all my photography teachers have said, rules are made to be broken. You start by following them, then you get away from them, and do what you want, as long as you know the rules.
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