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02/08/2013 05:47:23 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
That doesn't make DPC "irrelevant" though; it's still a useful school, community, whatever, in which to acquire craft as you grow. |
Maybe it came off a little strong, but a number of members tout DPC like it's the greatest bastion of learning out there. There are definitely useful aspects, but if you want to grow as a photographer, you only need the will to learn. |
Not necessarily true. The problem is, many times we don't know our own limitations. We have a tendency to shoot what we like, what we know, and even when we try to explore, we don't exactly know what's out there. I've read many books, and I've tried to challenge myself, but before I found DPC I felt that I was missing quite a bit, but I didn't know what it was. I knew I needed to branch out.
That's how I found DPC. I tried to make a list of things to shoot -- things I never thought of shooting before. Ways to "challenge" myself. And then I figured that someone must have had the same idea, so I searched for photography and challenge.
voila!
Anyway, it's truly amazing the things that I've learned from this site. That's why I don't cherry pick the challenges. If I just shot for the challenges that interested me, I would be in the same rut that I was in when I first joined -- shooting the things that interest me. I've actually learned the most from some of the most irritating challenges. You get out of it what you put into it.
By the way, I whole-heartedly disagree with #3. Do I think there are people who vote others down to increase their own chances? Probably. Is that why the participant vs non-participant is so incredibly different? Not necessarily. I'm curious the number of photographers vs non-photographers in the participants vs non participants. I know there are a number of people who just watch and don't do. It's completely possible that the participants are not as easily impressed and a little more critical.
Also, I'd never vote someone down. There have been a few times where I was too excited about an entry, and I found myself comparing other people's entries to mine, which isn't the way to go, so I skipped voting on those challenges. But otherwise, I think it's fun seeing what people come up with, and I have no problem giving out high scores to deserving photos. It's just a game, people! I'll whine and moan the first day or two about a low score, but that's part of the game. Then you suck it up and move on. Enjoy, explore, grow, and have fun. That's what it's all about.
Message edited by author 2013-02-08 05:49:23. |
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02/08/2013 06:20:38 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
snip...
Voting. I used to be a teacher. If I wanted students to receive harsh score/criticism, I would always turn them on each other. Students grade each other very harshly because they are a participant, they have put in the work, they are quick to spot a lack of effort from a peer & are likely to not sugarcoat their evaluation. And because they are students, they don't yet see the big picture. So it does not surprise me that participants give lower scores. I don't think it's because participants are hoping to bump up their own score by voting everyone else down, that's so stupid. |
Yep. Definitely. |
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02/08/2013 08:54:34 AM · #53 |
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point.
It is important to take the opinion of the DPC collective with a grain of salt (maybe as much as a tablespoon). I had originally edited this photo for the freestudy last January, but decided it was a little on the over-processed side for this place, and perhaps a little static, so I entered something else. Then it won the grand prize in a city photo contest over the summer. Well, maybe I was wrong and it was better than I thought. So I put it in the "best of" to see.
Well, I was right about it's DPC appeal, as it pulled a mere 5.44, which says "Just ok, but nothing special". It got a lot of "ooh's" and "ahh's" when it won that contest however.
My thoughts on why it was much better received elsewhere?
-Context. In the city photo contest, the judges (which included the Mayor) and audience were all local, and this was a photo of a major local event, the midway at the stock show & rodeo, with downtown behind it. Lots of local appeal. For DPC, it's just a fairground.
-Perhaps a little too heavy on the tonemapping for the DPC crowd.
-A bit static, not any dramatic action going on.
-On DPC, especially in any freestudy, you often have to have to totally blow people away just to get them to say "yeah, I guess it's ok".
Message edited by author 2013-02-08 08:58:09.
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02/08/2013 09:55:46 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point. |
An interesting experiment. Thanks for posting this, Spiff. There are several local photography groups here in Chicago, but to date I have not really checked them out. Reading this makes me realize that my perspective on photography has probably been shaped a bit too heavily by a single source -- DPC. What I think helps a photograph connect with the viewer has been largely formed by the small group that has voted on my 217 challenges, and that group may have it's own uniquely warped sense of things. This makes me think I should broaden my photography landscape and collect some new perspectives.
Unfortunately for me, I am not what you would call an extroverted photographer. I am much more comfortable wondering the city alone taking pictures and then sharing them with you guys from the cocoon of my living room via the internet than actually meeting up with a bunch of live strangers and and having to interact with them face-to-face. Perhaps this is an issue I need to work on.
p.s., Big congratulations on your grand prize winning photo. That is excellent. |
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02/08/2013 10:27:09 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point.... |
Congrats on your well deserved grand prize award. Don't underestimate the difference in display medium. Just a guess, but the photo you entered into the city contest was probably bigger than 620x800 pixels. The 800 pixel size constraint at DPC dramatically affects subjects and their complexity. Your image has many interesting details.... in focus throughout the scene. This type of image comes alive at a larger size. It's overlooked at DPC. The postage stamp size constraint at DPC nudges people to dumb down their images to simple and few subjects. |
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02/08/2013 10:34:33 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point.... |
Congrats on your well deserved grand prize award. Don't underestimate the difference in display medium. Just a guess, but the photo you entered into the city contest was probably bigger than 620x800 pixels. The 800 pixel size constraint at DPC dramatically affects subjects and their complexity. Your image has many interesting details.... in focus throughout the scene. This type of image comes alive at a larger size. It's overlooked at DPC. The postage stamp size constraint at DPC nudges people to dumb down their images to simple and few subjects. |
ditto. also some images simply look better as a print. |
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02/08/2013 11:27:37 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by markwiley:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point. |
An interesting experiment. Thanks for posting this, Spiff. There are several local photography groups here in Chicago, but to date I have not really checked them out. Reading this makes me realize that my perspective on photography has probably been shaped a bit too heavily by a single source -- DPC. What I think helps a photograph connect with the viewer has been largely formed by the small group that has voted on my 217 challenges, and that group may have it's own uniquely warped sense of things. This makes me think I should broaden my photography landscape and collect some new perspectives.
Unfortunately for me, I am not what you would call an extroverted photographer. I am much more comfortable wondering the city alone taking pictures and then sharing them with you guys from the cocoon of my living room via the internet than actually meeting up with a bunch of live strangers and and having to interact with them face-to-face. Perhaps this is an issue I need to work on.
p.s., Big congratulations on your grand prize winning photo. That is excellent. |
Mark, I understand exactly what your saying. I have a similar approach and attitude towards photography. |
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02/08/2013 12:04:40 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point.
It is important to take the opinion of the DPC collective with a grain of salt (maybe as much as a tablespoon). I had originally edited this photo for the freestudy last January, but decided it was a little on the over-processed side for this place, and perhaps a little static, so I entered something else. Then it won the grand prize in a city photo contest over the summer. Well, maybe I was wrong and it was better than I thought. So I put it in the "best of" to see.
Well, I was right about it's DPC appeal, as it pulled a mere 5.44, which says "Just ok, but nothing special". It got a lot of "ooh's" and "ahh's" when it won that contest however.
My thoughts on why it was much better received elsewhere?
-Context. In the city photo contest, the judges (which included the Mayor) and audience were all local, and this was a photo of a major local event, the midway at the stock show & rodeo, with downtown behind it. Lots of local appeal. For DPC, it's just a fairground.
-Perhaps a little too heavy on the tonemapping for the DPC crowd.
-A bit static, not any dramatic action going on.
-On DPC, especially in any freestudy, you often have to have to totally blow people away just to get them to say "yeah, I guess it's ok". |
Likewise, I've won a couple contests in my local photography group with photos that did hohum at best here. It's interesting to see the contrast...
It's also that it's such a big, diverse pool, so the diversity of entries we see makes us more critical because we've literally seen more before. |
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02/08/2013 12:42:06 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point.
It is important to take the opinion of the DPC collective with a grain of salt (maybe as much as a tablespoon). I had originally edited this photo for the freestudy last January, but decided it was a little on the over-processed side for this place, and perhaps a little static, so I entered something else. Then it won the grand prize in a city photo contest over the summer. Well, maybe I was wrong and it was better than I thought. So I put it in the "best of" to see.
Well, I was right about it's DPC appeal, as it pulled a mere 5.44, which says "Just ok, but nothing special". It got a lot of "ooh's" and "ahh's" when it won that contest however.
My thoughts on why it was much better received elsewhere?
-Context. In the city photo contest, the judges (which included the Mayor) and audience were all local, and this was a photo of a major local event, the midway at the stock show & rodeo, with downtown behind it. Lots of local appeal. For DPC, it's just a fairground.
-Perhaps a little too heavy on the tonemapping for the DPC crowd.
-A bit static, not any dramatic action going on.
-On DPC, especially in any freestudy, you often have to have to totally blow people away just to get them to say "yeah, I guess it's ok". |
ditto on the size thing.......I'm sure that looks fantastic printed big. I have a shot that's my wallpaper on my 25" widescreen monitor of Niagara falls at night. It's freakin' spectacular! It positively sucks at 800 px wide. LOL!!!
Also, I have actually found in some of the local venues that I'm considerably better, and have more working knowledge than a lot of the photographers in the art community here.
Not that I'm any great shakes, but it's a decided tribute to the extraordinary knowledge base that is the DPC community.
Having utilized this site to educate myself, with y'all's help every step of the way, I also came to realize that I am not only not professional photographer material, I don't have the desire to commit the way that people here have shown me that you need to in order to survive as a pro photog, much less succeed.
So I'm a happy amateur hack, who loves what he does. It's funny.......sometimes somebody will be looking at my work and give me the old, "You're *SO* good! You need to be a pro!". I simply smile and tell them I'm just an amateur hack, and I know better!
Wouldn't be right not to throw in a thanks to a whole bunch of people who have been very good to me here.
You know who you are........thanks!
Message edited by author 2013-02-08 12:42:51.
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02/08/2013 01:24:55 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's funny.......sometimes somebody will be looking at my work and give me the old, "You're *SO* good! You need to be a pro!". I simply smile and tell them I'm just an amateur hack, and I know better! |
What would you do if someone offered payment for your services? Would you turn them away because you're an amateur hack? |
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02/08/2013 02:13:04 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I was going to make a separate thread for this, however this one seems appropriate for my point.... |
Congrats on your well deserved grand prize award. Don't underestimate the difference in display medium. Just a guess, but the photo you entered into the city contest was probably bigger than 620x800 pixels. The 800 pixel size constraint at DPC dramatically affects subjects and their complexity. Your image has many interesting details.... in focus throughout the scene. This type of image comes alive at a larger size. It's overlooked at DPC. The postage stamp size constraint at DPC nudges people to dumb down their images to simple and few subjects. |
Exactly. This one got a 5.8 on DPC. Most of the comments were that it was way too busy, and the comments are absolutely correct. But when people see the large print hanging on a wall, they stop and look. Print sales of this one image paid for all of my gear in 2008 and 2009. (I consider myself an amateur, and I don't spend much time chasing money, but it's nice to be able to pay for my habithobby with a few sales.)
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02/08/2013 04:35:33 PM · #62 |
&
I never considered this before, but it must be irritating to be able to get shots like this, which are at their best in print, in a large size, hanging on a wall & then have to watch them suffer lower scores here at DPC where size & format restrictions force them to look less than their best. Especially if you're enjoying commercial success with it.
Someday, maybe before I die, digital technology will allow us to zoom in & read the time on someone's digital wristwatch who is standing on one of those boats. The thumb will link to an offsite portfolio, maybe. |
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02/08/2013 04:53:04 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
&
I never considered this before, but it must be irritating to be able to get shots like this, which are at their best in print, in a large size, hanging on a wall & then have to watch them suffer lower scores here at DPC where size & format restrictions force them to look less than their best. Especially if you're enjoying commercial success with it.
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At the time, it was really annoying, because when I looked at the image, I saw the big picture. When others looked at the small version, they went "meh..." Now that I have more perspective, however, I recognize that part of the challenge is fitting an effective message into 800 pixels.
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Someday, maybe before I die, digital technology will allow us to zoom in & read the time on someone's digital wristwatch who is standing on one of those boats. The thumb will link to an offsite portfolio, maybe. |
I think my D800 could do that already.
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02/08/2013 05:23:56 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Ann:
Originally posted by pixelpig:
&
I never considered this before, but it must be irritating to be able to get shots like this, which are at their best in print, in a large size, hanging on a wall & then have to watch them suffer lower scores here at DPC where size & format restrictions force them to look less than their best. Especially if you're enjoying commercial success with it.
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At the time, it was really annoying, because when I looked at the image, I saw the big picture. When others looked at the small version, they went "meh..." Now that I have more perspective, however, I recognize that part of the challenge is fitting an effective message into 800 pixels. |
Which, of course, is the main thing people miss when they bitch about "needing" file size increases. It's always about the challenge conforming to them, instead of understanding that they should be conforming to the challenge.
Actually, come to think of it, 99% of the complaining is about not wanting to be challenged by the challenge in some form or another.
Message edited by author 2013-02-08 17:24:25. |
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02/08/2013 05:24:45 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by Ann:
Now that I have more perspective, however, I recognize that part of the challenge is fitting an effective message into 800 pixels. |
Not only that, but given that "cherry-picking" entries to vote on still occurs it helps to have an image which looks catchy at thumbail size as well ...
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Actually, come to think of it, 99% of the complaining is about not wanting to be challenged by the challenge in some form or another. |
When I started out here, I took the challenge to be to come up with something every week, more than to come up with the "best" picture entering every once in a while.
Message edited by author 2013-02-08 17:29:06. |
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02/08/2013 05:42:44 PM · #66 |
| One of the fun aspects of the challenges is to find a comp that goes well at the required size, but also makes a clean impact at thumbnail size. Something about the thumbnail has to invite that click, so I can get a vote or a comment. Sometimes I feel that is much more difficult than getting a good shot in the first place. |
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02/08/2013 05:55:34 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
When I started out here, I took the challenge to be to come up with something every week, more than to come up with the "best" picture entering every once in a while. |
Ditto. I don't miss very many of 'em for that reason. |
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02/08/2013 07:07:49 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Well, I was right about it's DPC appeal, as it pulled a mere 5.44, which says "Just ok, but nothing special". It got a lot of "ooh's" and "ahh's" when it won that contest however. |
I'm with you on this. My "Best of" entry gets all kinds of comments. It looks great enlarged and framed and I gave a copy to friend. But the masses here did not like it. I've said it before, but I do not let this site determine my skill or worth as a photographer. I just haven't cracked this nut, yet. That's all. I've sold pictures and made some money. Not enough to retire on, though. Did a bunch of senior pictures, and actor head shots. I was even lucky enough to do some pictures for a nice young lady, she then used those pictures for her audition and has now been a Bronco Cheerleader for a couple of years. So I do alright. It's just not my career choice. It's more of a hobby. |
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02/09/2013 10:19:13 AM · #69 |
Dang! Late to the party again....
#3 I respectfully disagree.... While our equipment back then is "poor" by today's standards, it was state of the art at the time. Our cameras were capable of as good an image one could make, with a digital camera.
I, and many others, have noticed for a long time the difference in voting between participants and non-participants. There may be some strategic voting. At the same time, an entrant is likely to have more of a preconceived notion of what is and isn't DNMC.
Lastly, high scores are harder to get. As we improve, well some of us, we expect more of others. I invite you to look at my top scoring images. Would you really vote them that high today? I wouldn't. |
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02/09/2013 11:20:01 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's funny.......sometimes somebody will be looking at my work and give me the old, "You're *SO* good! You need to be a pro!". I simply smile and tell them I'm just an amateur hack, and I know better! |
Originally posted by Venser:
What would you do if someone offered payment for your services? Would you turn them away because you're an amateur hack? |
Did I say that? No. This was the line in my post right before this one you cherry-picked for whatever odd reason.....
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Having utilized this site to educate myself, with y'all's help every step of the way, I also came to realize that I am not only not professional photographer material, I don't have the desire to commit the way that people here have shown me that you need to in order to survive as a pro photog, much less succeed. |
That simply means that I know what it takes to be a pro, and I'm not interested. I will, and have sold my work in the past. That doesn't make me a pro. Just mercenary when the opportunity comes along.
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02/09/2013 11:40:15 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That simply means that I know what it takes to be a pro, and I'm not interested. |
Know what you mean. I'm going out to take some pics of a friend's marriage proposal to his girlfriend this afternoon. It's fun and casual, but I'm worried that he may ask me to photograph the wedding. I have zero experience with that and don't think I would do a worthy job. If he asks, I'll be telling him he needs to find a professional to do that job.
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02/09/2013 12:25:22 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That simply means that I know what it takes to be a pro, and I'm not interested. |
Know what you mean. I'm going out to take some pics of a friend's marriage proposal to his girlfriend this afternoon. It's fun and casual, but I'm worried that he may ask me to photograph the wedding. I have zero experience with that and don't think I would do a worthy job. If he asks, I'll be telling him he needs to find a professional to do that job. |
Happens to me all the time. I do a couple weddings per year. I hate them. My price should be $5000+, but I usually get arm twisted to do it for a lot less. And, It's always a mistake for me because of the time and energy needed to do it right. My daughter helps as cameraperson #2, but here's the issue. People don't want to spend the big bucks for the pro wedding photography. So, they ask their friend, who happens to be a photographer. Expectations for a full blown wedding package will still be in place. I have to learn to say "no!". Dedicated wedding photographers deserve every penny they get for their craft. |
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02/09/2013 12:40:59 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Happens to me all the time. I do a couple weddings per year. I hate them. My price should be $5000+, but I usually get arm twisted to do it for a lot less. And, It's always a mistake for me because of the time and energy needed to do it right. My daughter helps as cameraperson #2, but here's the issue. People don't want to spend the big bucks for the pro wedding photography. So, they ask their friend, who happens to be a photographer. Expectations for a full blown wedding package will still be in place. I have to learn to say "no!". Dedicated wedding photographers deserve every penny they get for their craft. |
I agree 100% on this. Years ago a friend asked me to do his wedding. At first I said no and that I wouldn't know where to begin. But he was persistent and I finally caved in and did it for him. Since I had no clue how to photograph a wedding, the pictures were crap. And his wife complained. My reply was "I told you to hire a pro" and that they get what they paid for. They paid me a big whopping' $0. Never again. Wedding photographers earn every dollar they make. |
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02/09/2013 12:55:31 PM · #74 |
Ok, Iâll jump in late too with my exceptions to #3
Originally posted by mikeee:
In the Road Signs challenge the scores ranged from 6.9291 to 3.7333 (ignoring Venser's thrust for brown) meaning that only a third of the scoring range was used
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Saying that average scores from 3.7 to 6.9 indicates only a third of the range was used is just not true. A quick scan of the voting breakdowns of the individual images shows that the entire range of voting, (1-10) was used on most images in the challenge. Even the last place entry in the Road Signs challenge had at least one vote in every category of the scoring range. It actually takes more voter uniformity, using less of the voting scale, to average a really high or really low score. For example, there are many distributions that can result in an average score of 5.5, such as 100 votes clustered narrowly around 5.5 or 100 votes spanning the entire scale with an equal number of votes in each bucket. However, with very extreme average scores, say greater than 8 and less than 2, you have to have most of the votes in a narrow band using less of the scale at one end of the scale.. This is why we will probably never see a score greater than 9 and even the worst average score in DPC history was a 1.8. If we accept the premise that itâs very rare to average over 8 or under 3 your logic would indicate we only use 60% of the scale at best.
Personally I think the âlowâ range of averages in the Road Sign challenge was because with the exception of a few pictures with a clever use of a road sign, the subject matter was rather average. 6.9 is a relatively low blue score but it doesn't seem to have been affected by any anonymous low voters; it has no 1 or 2 votes and only one 3 vote.
I donât see any indication that there was a group of anonymous low voters attacking your image. The vote distribution appears to be very normal. It received three 3 scores that you take exception with. Iâm curious if you have the same concern with the three 10 scores it received? Could anybody than has a DPC account give that image a 10?
84% of the voters scored your image between 4 and 7, 14% scored it between 8 and 9, only 2% scored it below 4. Do you take exception with all of the less than 4 scores but with none with the greater than 7?
If your 3 votes were generously increased to 7, the score would increase 0.863. You would jump from 6th to 3rd place, but then again, we have to move the unfair 3 scores from the images above you too. That would leave you back in 6th place again. But the scores would all increase an average of 0.07 making everybody feel much better about their images.
Do intentional low voters exist? - probably
Do intentional low votes affect scores and placements? - yes, but very rarely
Do we make much too big a deal about intentional low voters? - YES
Some of the previous discussions on this...
Voting Stats Discussions |
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02/09/2013 01:05:02 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That simply means that I know what it takes to be a pro, and I'm not interested. |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Know what you mean. I'm going out to take some pics of a friend's marriage proposal to his girlfriend this afternoon. It's fun and casual, but I'm worried that he may ask me to photograph the wedding. I have zero experience with that and don't think I would do a worthy job. If he asks, I'll be telling him he needs to find a professional to do that job. |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Happens to me all the time. I do a couple weddings per year. I hate them. My price should be $5000+, but I usually get arm twisted to do it for a lot less. And, It's always a mistake for me because of the time and energy needed to do it right. My daughter helps as cameraperson #2, but here's the issue. People don't want to spend the big bucks for the pro wedding photography. So, they ask their friend, who happens to be a photographer. Expectations for a full blown wedding package will still be in place. I have to learn to say "no!". Dedicated wedding photographers deserve every penny they get for their craft. |
I've done a couple......they've turned out okay, but I kept my price very low and been adamant about the fact that I'm NOT a wedding photog. I pretty much only shoot for people I know as well. I will always get a handful of truly nice shots as an "extra", and of course I can never know beforehand what they'll be.
I gave the groom a copy of this as a Christmas present that was 17x24.......again, here at DPC it did not fare well, but at that size with the tremendous resolution this D600 I have renders, it's pretty nice.
 Click on "View full-size" then click again on the image.....
I had asked her to stand in that iron gateway, and as she turned around, the bottom of her dress swirled just so, and I had been framing the shot anyway, so I shot her and this was what I got.......look how in focus the hem of the dress is even though it was swirling. Turquoise toes, too! LOL!!! I could not have been luckier!
So I have fun as a second, and don't have big expectations put on me for weddings where I'm the primary. I don't do them or portraits more than once or twice a year.
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