Post Election Collective Thread - DPChallenge Forums

11/03/2004 10:48:04 PM · #76

Im reading that "morals" and "values" were a big factor in the election. 2008 should be the same. Cant campaign on it if you dont have it.

Madmordegon, I like the Jesusland map :)

frychikn

Olympus C-5050Z

11/03/2004 11:25:31 PM · #77

Originally posted by Riggs:

Originally posted by EddyG:
What's really cool is how many red counties there are across the U.S.

Square miles of counties won:
Bush = 3.28 million
Kerry = 741,000

I wonder if this spanking will be a wake-up call to the Democratic party to quit putting wackos like Michael Moore next to Jimmy Carter at their convention...

It sure feels good to be on the right side of history...

That is so true. If the Democrats have any chance of taking 2008 they have to distance themselves from the far left wing fringe. It may work on in NY or SF but it does not play in the heartland.

I am open minded, I would like to see a moderate candidate in 2008 for the Democrats. But if they nominate someone as liberal as Kerry, well the election will go again to the Repulicans.

/Independent that voted for Bush.

You know who I think could win for the democrats in 2008, but he probably wouldn't even consider it nor would the party consider him. Current Chicago mayor Richard M. Daley.

The Museum of the Middle Class, featuring historical and anthropological exhibits addressing the socioeconomic category that once existed between the upper and lower classes, opened to the public Monday

11/03/2004 11:50:19 PM · #78

MadMordegon

11/03/2004 11:58:16 PM · #79

Originally posted by pitsaman:

Wow.

dsmboostaholic

Canon EOS-40D

11/04/2004 12:02:17 AM · #80

Originally posted by pitsaman:

got to love The Onion....

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM II

11/04/2004 12:49:42 PM · #81

I think Dems got hurt very much by pro-gay ,anti-gun and anti-smoking waste of time talk/legislations.
To became more main-stream (American) party they should stay clear from extremists in the party !

giega

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

11/04/2004 02:06:06 PM · #82

Is UKs Daily Mirror a respectable newspaper? Just wondering, since I saw this

11/04/2004 02:21:01 PM · #83

Originally posted by giega:

Is UKs Daily Mirror a respectable newspaper? Just wondering, since I saw this

Some excerpts from Daily Mirror :

U.S. ELECTION DISASTER: THE WORLD MOURNS.. Nov 4 2004

"I'm not sure in the light of the last four years whether the Bush team have got the skills to heal a divided America.

"Not only do we have a divided America but also we have a president who is highly polarising in his approach to world politics"

FORMER FOREIGN SECRETARY, ROBIN COOK

__________

"Almost all nations, with about three or four exceptions wanted a change.

"There is a basic lack of understanding, which is lasting and deep, between the American people and the rest of the world and it goes in both directions. The world no longer understands very well what America is."

FORMER FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER, HUBERT VEDRINE

__________

"The Americans have voted for a militarised Rambo rather than someone who appeals to their reason"

FORMER NIGERIAN FOREIGN MINISTER BOLAJI AKINYEMI

__________

"Sweden and Europe will continue to criticise Bush the same way as earlier.

"But I do not believe that he will be more willing to listen to it during the second period than during the first."

SWEDISH PRIME MINISTER GOERAN PERSSON

__________

"It is a bad day for the environment."

TONY JUNIPER, FRIENDS OF THE EARTH

__________

"I think that people in the United States still don't understand how much Bush is hated all around the world"

SHIN HO-YUN, A 30-YEAR-OLD OFFICE WORKER IN SEOUL

__________

"We are going to see more extremism come out of the U.S. We are going to see even more isolation where Americans will not bother about the United Nations. To me that is a very sad affair."

KENYAN VICE PRESIDENT MOODY AWORI

__________

"Bush is the most hated man in the region. His mentality is naturally against Islam and Muslims. Kerry would have been better for the plain reason that he is not Bush."

HEAD OF NASSERIST PARTY IN EGYPT DIA EL-DIN DAWOUD

__________

"The temptation for Europe to define itself as 'Not America' will be increased."

TIMOTHY GARTON ASH PROFESSOR OF EUROPEAN STUDIES AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY

__________

"Bush will interpret victory as a validation of his policies. I don't expect a second term to be any more moderate - on the contrary."

RAFAEL BARDAJI, ADVISER TO FORMER SPANISH PRIME MINISTER JOSE MARIA AZNAR

__________

"We have a dangerous killer on the loose with a mandate to mount further wars. He has threatened Syria, Iran, North Korea and Cuba. Many people will feel that his re-election will make the world a more dangerous place."

STOP THE WAR COALITION CONVENOR LINDSAY GERMAN

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

11/04/2004 02:24:15 PM · #84

God bless Bush for this :

Athens irked by Macedonia recognition
by
Thursday 04 November 2004 10:42 AM GMT

Greek Foreign Minister Petros Molyviatis said the United States has decided to recognise the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) as the 'Republic of Macedonia'.

Molyviatis cancelled his trip to the EU summit in Brussels on news the US is considering giving official recognition to Macedonia.

The foreign minister summoned US Ambassdor to Greece Thomas Miller to clarify whether the US was set to recognise the government in Skopje as Macedonia, said foreign ministry spokesman Georges Koumoutsakos in a statement on Thursday.

Greece objects to the fact that the former Yugoslav republic, which gained independence in 1991, took the name of Macedonia.

The name, Macedonia is also that of a northern Greek province and viewed by Athens as part of Greek heritage.

The Greek government has insisted that Macedonia be known officially as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia," or FYROM for short.

It was under that name that the new country was admitted to the United Nations in 1993.

Macedonian officials confirmed on Thursday that the US officially recognised their country as the Republic of Macedonia.

AFP

bdobe

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/04/2004 02:31:00 PM · #85

Originally posted by pitsaman:

How disappointing... this sort of analysis is precisely what many are afraid of in the progressive/Democratic wing of the Democratic party. I did not expect this sort of capitulation from, what I suspect are core Democratic supporters, which I believe you to be, Pitsman.

Here's what we do know from this past election: all of the following self-identified ideological groups, liberals, moderates, independents and progressives, voted for Kerry in greater numbers then they voted for Bush. The only ideological group that voted for Bush in much greater numbers were ideological conservatives. Now, here's one more thing that we know, in 2000 conservatives/Evangelical Christians composed about 20-25% of voters, in 2004 conservatives/Evangelical Christians represented about 30-35% of voters. Conclusion, Bush carried only one ideological group, conservatives/Evangelical Christians, and more of them came out to vote in 2004. Now, how one can jump to the conclusion that They (Republicans) somehow represent the "mainstream," I frankly don't know. Clearly Bush received nearly 4 million votes more than Kerry; however, in a nation with 217,767,000 citizens of voting age, and where 114,324,228 (52.5%) turned out to vote, I think it's defeatist for Democratic supporters to conclude: Oh, we got to be more like Republicans if we want to win. No, that's the wrong conclusion, and the sort of thinking that does not earn respect from anybody. We, Democrats, liberals, progressives, moderates, independents (whatever you want to call yourself), have got to be more like Us and less like Them, and make sure that We present clear distinctions between Us and Them.

Here's something I presented elsewhere, which I'll post again, because it's something that We have to keep in mind as We build up to for the next fight:

"In 1964, Lyndon Johnson (Democrat) beat Barry Goldwater (Republican) by 23% points. Goldwater managed to carry just 6 states and Johnson won the electoral college 486-52. But the conservatives didn't give up. They didn't spend a lot of time wringing their hands. They regrouped and fought back. By 1968, Nixon (Republican) crushed Humphrey (Democrat) in the electoral college 301-191 and won the popular vote by a million votes. If you oppose Bush, now isn't the time to feel sorry for yourself. Now is the time to get to work."

It took the Right wing 30+ years to get to where they are -- We've taken the first step, and We must now follow up with action. Please, if you support Democratic/Progressive values, find local groups that will point in the right direction.

I'd recommend to start here:

//www.democracyforamerica.com/

And don't compromise your core convictions and moral values of Hope over Fear, and of Tolerance as a Family Value.

-----------------------------------------------------

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!"
- William Shakespeare, Henry V

mrorange002

Canon EOS-5D

11/04/2004 02:39:57 PM · #86

A very interesting post election TIME cover:

TIME Magazine election cover

Judith Polakoff

Nikon D7000

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

11/04/2004 02:40:13 PM · #87

Another article you may find of interest, from today's New York Times:

---------------------------------------------------

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
The Day the Enlightenment Went Out
By GARRY WILLS

Published: November 4, 2004
Evanston, Ill.

This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they could be turned out, would be the deciding factor. The success of the plan was registered not only in the presidential results but also in all 11 of the state votes to ban same-sex marriage. Mr. Rove understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution.

This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in which William Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept of evolution was discredited. Disillusionment with that decision led many evangelicals to withdraw from direct engagement in politics. But they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, now, gay marriage. Mr. Rove felt that the appeal to this large bloc was worth getting President Bush to endorse a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage (though he had opposed it earlier).

The results bring to mind a visit the Dalai Lama made to Chicago not long ago. I was one of the people deputized to ask him questions on the stage at the Field Museum. He met with the interrogators beforehand and asked us to give him challenging questions, since he is too often greeted with deference or flattery.

The only one I could think of was: "If you could return to your country, what would you do to change it?" He said that he would disestablish his religion, since "America is the proper model." I later asked him if a pluralist society were possible without the Enlightenment. "Ah," he said. "That's the problem." He seemed to envy America its Enlightenment heritage.

Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation?

America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of Enlightenment values - critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. Though the founders differed on many things, they shared these values of what was then modernity. They addressed "a candid world," as they wrote in the Declaration of Independence, out of "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind." Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11.

The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble those nations less than we do our putative enemies.

Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. We find it in the Muslim world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. Americans wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so single-minded, so impervious to international appeals. They fear jihad, no matter whose zeal is being expressed.

It is often observed that enemies come to resemble each other. We torture the torturers, we call our God better than theirs - as one American general put it, in words that the president has not repudiated.

President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and abroad, with real respect.

In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. His helpers are also his keepers.

The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment.

Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion."

Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f2.8D

11/04/2004 02:45:59 PM · #88

Originally posted by bdobe:

Originally posted by pitsaman:
I think Dems got hurt very much by pro-gay ,anti-gun and anti-smoking waste of time talk/legislations.
To became more main-stream (American) party they should stay clear from extremists in the party !

How disappointing... this sort of analysis is precisely what many are afraid of in the progressive/Democratic wing of the Democratic party. I did not expect this sort of capitulation from, what I suspect are core Democratic supporters, which I believe you to be, Pitsman.

-----------------------------------------------------

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!"
- William Shakespeare, Henry V

I'm neither Republican or Democrat,I'm realist .....

bdobe

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/04/2004 02:48:44 PM · #89

Originally posted by pitsaman:

Originally posted by bdobe:

Originally posted by pitsaman:
I think Dems got hurt very much by pro-gay ,anti-gun and anti-smoking waste of time talk/legislations.
To became more main-stream (American) party they should stay clear from extremists in the party !

How disappointing... this sort of analysis is precisely what many are afraid of in the progressive/Democratic wing of the Democratic party. I did not expect this sort of capitulation from, what I suspect are core Democratic supporters, which I believe you to be, Pitsman.

-----------------------------------------------------

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more!"
- William Shakespeare, Henry V

I'm neither Republican or Democrat,I'm realist .....

Then look at the numbers I provided as a reality... the numbers do not suggest that Republicans represent the mainstream. What we do know is that Republicans did a much better job of getting their supporters (Conservatives/Evangelical Christians) out -- that is not the same as presenting a message that's "mainstream."

Message edited by author 2004-11-04 15:13:20.

David Ey

Nikon D80

11/04/2004 03:07:45 PM · #90

At last,Macedonia nuts will get their deserved respect.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/04/2004 03:15:16 PM · #91

Bdobe, MadMordegan, Olyuzi, Ericlimon, et al:

Face it. You're on the fringe of not only your nation, but your party - or at least the party you supported this time around. I'm hopeful that some progress can be made in bringing the majority of the nation at least back to the table and move forward together. You've shown you want no part of that, but want to minimize and riducule anyone with a differing opinion or viewpoint. You've poisoned any hope of rational political discourse, and by the reaction of your fringe element, show no intention of backing off from the attacks and polarizing rhetoric. If the core of the democratic party is smart, it will cast your lot off to wallow in third party anonymity, perhaps with Michael Moore as your candidate and figurehead.

BTW, I hear Canada has issued a statement that they will be happy to take Americans disheartened by the election result. Sadly, they will expect you to get in line and wait your turn - for a year or more. Canada: Get ready for your own flood of illegal immigrants...

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

11/04/2004 03:23:23 PM · #92

Probably a hoax, but maybe not...

Election results by IQ

EDIT- fixed link

Message edited by author 2004-11-04 15:24:50.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/04/2004 03:24:12 PM · #93

Originally posted by ScottK:

...BTW, I hear Canada has issued a statement that they will be happy to take Americans disheartened by the election result. Sadly, they will expect you to get in line and wait your turn - for a year or more. Canada: Get ready for your own flood of illegal immigrants...

that would the map my uncle just sent me, delineating the new political landscape ...

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/04/2004 03:28:49 PM · #94

Originally posted by Judith Polakoff:

Another article you may find of interest, from today's New York Times:

---------------------------------------------------

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
The Day the Enlightenment Went Out
By GARRY WILLS

Published: November 4, 2004
Evanston, Ill.

... The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble those nations less than we do our putative enemies. ...

Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion."

Far from exporting democracy to the middle east, I believe the current rulers are actually bent on re-establishing feudalism -- their decisions and values sure seem to point that way.

Of course, It's pretty easy to predict who will end up as the barons and who the serfs ...

Message edited by author 2004-11-04 15:29:14.

mrorange002

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

11/04/2004 03:30:37 PM · #95

scottk Isn't what your posting an attack? minimizing ridiculing people with a different opinion? your just doing what you accuse others of.

Message edited by author 2004-11-04 15:34:51.

mrorange002

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

11/04/2004 03:44:00 PM · #96

ScottK, RonB, davidEy, etc...

Tell me whats wrong with not agreeing with a stupid war?

whats wrong with not agreeing to endless civilian bloodshed?

whats wrong with believing in health care for everyone?

whats wrong with me thinking the president is a moron?

whats wrong with believing in the womans right to chose?

whats wrong with believing in investing in education instead of guns?

whats wrong with believing in joining the entire world at the table instead of pushing them away?

whats wrong with believing in gay rights?

whats wrong with believing in basic civil liberties?

whats wrong with believing in taking care of the enviroment?

whats wrong with believing in keeping American jobs in America?

whats wrong with believing in keeping a seperation of church and state?

tell me. what is wrong with that?

Message edited by author 2004-11-04 15:46:52.

bdobe

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

11/04/2004 03:47:03 PM · #97

Scott,

I am not going away, to Canada or anywhere else -- and over the next couple of years we will see a struggle in both parties. There'll be purges in the Republican party, as well as in the Democratic party; and at the end of that period, the Right will have a firmer grip on the Republican party and moderates and independents will flood into the Democratic party. The numbers bare this out. More moderates, independents voted for Kerry then voted for Bush. The only group that voted for Bush in greater numbers are Conservative/Evangelical Christians for whom issues of "morality" (abortion and homosexuality) were more important than the economy, Iraq, health care, social security, etc. -- all of the actual "rational" issues. The only reason why these people voted for Bush is because they firmly believe that, as I've personally heard, Bush is "touched by the hand of god," and because they could not vote for a candidate that did not share their "morals." Moreover, Republicans -- those your faction of the Republican party refer to as RINOs* -- have already warned Bush to stick to a moderate agenda. Clearly, Bush will not stick to a "moderate" agenda, since's his vice-president has claimed a "moral mandate." Accordingly, like in 2000, I expect that there'll be defections in the Senate from RINOs -- especially if Bush is called to make a Supreme Court appointment. Scott, you're absolutely right, rational discourse has been poisoned, but it has not been by my side that did this; after all, it's those on your side that continue to believe that Iraq had WMDs, that Hussein collaborated with Bin Laden, inspite of rational facts on the ground proving otherwise.

Finally, now more than ever, I will hold on to my core values and seek like-minded individuals, and we will rebuild the Democratic party, as the Right has done and taken over the Republican party. The elected leadership of the Democratic party may go forward and speak in conciliatory tones; but the activists grassroots is now more united, and we do recognize that there'll be many hard fought battles ahead. We will do exactly what the Right did, but we will just have to do it more rapidly. Finally, the good thing that will come from this is that Bush (and the group he represents) will clearly be responsible for whatever happens over the next couple of years: no more blaming the slow growth in the economy on Clinton, no more blaming terrorism on previous administrations -- Bush and his group will own these issues, for better or for worst.

--------------------------------------

* Republicans In Name Only

Message edited by author 2004-11-04 17:51:15.

ScottK

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT