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06/04/2010 01:01:09 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Yes...it would be nice to have sweet green energy that supplied all of our power...that also put people to work. |
How about we attach generators to all the exercise bikes and treadmills in gyms around the country?
BTW: Care to explain how the US can issue a lease for property not in its territorial waters?
Message edited by author 2010-06-04 13:03:13. |
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06/04/2010 01:17:45 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by signal2noise:
The anger and frustration that people feel on all sides of this issue are understandable, but all the speculation of "doing this vs. this" and that it's anyone's fault beyond the lease holder/operator is completely misplaced.
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I would beg to differ, it is the fault of we, the voting public.
Both BP and Transocean are corporations, and as such they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits while staying within the law. If they cut margins of safety to zero in order to increase profits, that is only based on the probability of greater profits.
You can no more blame them than you can blame a dog for getting into the garbage when you left a steak in there. Dogs seek food. Corporations seek profit.
We the public have encouraged and allowed the governmental oversight to slacken to the point where safety margins had to slip below zero, somewhere, sometime. Deepwater Horizon was flagged in the Marshall Islands, hence it was never inspected by its national safety inspectors. Minerals Management Service is the very model of a revolving door oversight agency, where people go in and out from those overseeing an industry to those in the industry, so that oversight begins to be seen as a cumbersome and pointless exercise.
If the government had required blowout preventers, regular inspections, real safety oversight, thicker riser sidewalls, and anything else you might think of to prevent this situation, it still could have happened. But if we continue to elect representatives who believe that government is in the way of industry, and allow corporations to operate with only actuarial tables to guide them, they must seek out maximum profits, and such events will continue to happen, as long as the costs of failure are lower than the costs of prevention. |
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06/04/2010 01:24:14 PM · #53 |
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06/04/2010 01:26:58 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
Not sure if this was posted elsewhere but here are some images from The Big Picture. I'm afraid this is only the beginning.
//www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/06/caught_in_the_oil.html
Workers clean off the birds. The birds goes back into the water. Tough battle to be fighting. |
Holy crap - I havent seen anything like this before. as a nature lover this made me feel physically sick.
Thanks for posting - I guess :(
Message edited by author 2010-06-04 13:28:24. |
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06/04/2010 01:33:58 PM · #55 |
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06/04/2010 01:36:53 PM · #56 |
Editorial Cartoon
One of the things I find most interesting during this crisis is that it seems that those railing the loudest for the Obama administration to "do more" are the same ones who, as (I think) Mr. Cheney put it, want to "starve the Federal Government until it's small enough to drown in a bathtub," and who also sent most of the National Guard (and their equipment) to the Middle East so they can't be cleaning oily birds and beaches.
I mean, either you're for a big, powerful, responsible National Government or not -- you want private companies to take care of us, and the only Earth we have to live on. I wish these so-called conservatives would make up their minds ... and that they'd want to conserve more than their own wealth. It's amazing that, in the political world, "conservative" and "conservationist" are polar opposites ... :-( |
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06/04/2010 01:48:26 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by kenskid:
Thanks for all the input...interesting stuff..
On this one though..
So the exec's control the money...which means most of the government..(I'm not sure how but maybe through political contributions?)...which means most of PRIVATE and PUBLIC funding....so my idea wouldn't make it that far (to mass production).
Is this really going on? Are there ideas and inventions like my "made-up" one being squashed like you say? If this is the case we're in bad shape. What happens when they can't get funding because of what you say is happening? Do the inventors just shelve their inventions? It seems like in this age of the internet with youtube and such, the news of government squashing funding for potential energy saving/green energy devices would be all over the place.
Surely if someone had such a machine as mine, they could get it to someone like Al Gore or Kevin Costner and let them get the word out for funding from their end.
I remember a man from Mississippi in the mid 70's said he invented an energy machine that would produce more energy than it used. About two years ago he actually trucked out the machine.(it is huge). I saw it on youtube but can't seem to find it now. It looked like a big turbine. He had several small 9volt batteries hooked to it. (the smoke detector type). When he closed the circuit, the "turbine" started turning. He had guages on it that showed if was outputting more power/energy than the 9volt batteries could possible be putting out.
However, he would not let anyone see the inside to examine the process. Is this guy still around? I wonder if his machine really worked and he couldn't get funding...that would be a shame.
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I'm afraid this kind of stuff happens all the time. A friend of mine back in England in the '60s new a guy who invented a new filament for a lightbulb that basically didn't burn out. The company he worked for bought it from him and shelved it because it's more profitable to sell more bulbs. After the EV1 shutdown because of purposefully horrific marketing and denial of demand (another example of profits before innovation) Texaco I think it was bought the patent for NMh batteries and made it illegal to manufacture them in large enough bricks for electric vehicle use.
Just look at the fuel efficiency of our cars...! there has been no change since directly after the "fuel crisis" of the '70s.
When patents were first introduced the idea was to spur innovation by rewarding it but to make sure it wouldn't stagnate there was like a 5 year period before they would expire, thus forcing more innovation. Now patents don't have a limit and big business can just buy and shelve anything legally keeping stuff off the market that is competing or would make less money. Look at our disposable society... why do we throw so much out? because then we have to BUY more.
Have you seen the film "Who Killed the Electric Car"? it's VERY interesting. |
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06/04/2010 01:51:32 PM · #58 |
I echo Paul. Wasn't the mantra of the 2008 Republican election "Drill! Baby! Drill!"? Politicians across the spectrum are utterly hopeless in their willingness to be blown by the political winds.
Of course, in a way, we are ALL on the hook for this disaster. I'm sure every single person reading this post uses petroleum products in large quantities. We can certainly grieve such a disaster, but oil isn't going away anytime soon and we all have ourselves to thank for it.
Personally I'm a bit opitmistic that the final damage tally will not be the worst case scenario being presented in the media. We may dodge a big bullet if the majority of the oil stays in the oceanic abyss where little life lives. For the huge quantity of oil released so far, the damage has been, to this point, light. (That can always change.)
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06/04/2010 01:54:53 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I echo Paul. |
OMG! ;-) |
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06/04/2010 01:59:27 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
Not sure if this was posted elsewhere but here are some images from The Big Picture. I'm afraid this is only the beginning.
//www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/06/caught_in_the_oil.html
Workers clean off the birds. The birds goes back into the water. Tough battle to be fighting. |
Some more here :(
//www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/05/oil_reaches_louisiana_shores.html |
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06/04/2010 02:01:21 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I echo Paul. |
OMG! ;-) |
Hehe. Don't let it go to your head... :)
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06/04/2010 02:04:58 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by tehben:
Originally posted by kenskid:
I remember a man from Mississippi in the mid 70's said he invented an energy machine that would produce more energy than it used. About two years ago he actually trucked out the machine.(it is huge). I saw it on youtube but can't seem to find it now. It looked like a big turbine. He had several small 9volt batteries hooked to it. (the smoke detector type). When he closed the circuit, the "turbine" started turning. He had guages on it that showed if was outputting more power/energy than the 9volt batteries could possible be putting out.
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I'm afraid this kind of stuff happens all the time.
Have you seen the film "Who Killed the Electric Car"? it's VERY interesting. |
Come on guys, there is a difference between a company buying up or quashing a technology because it does not seem profitable, and an infinite energy machine.The second law of thermodynamics is not a corporate conspiracy, or just a good idea, ITS THE LAW! |
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06/04/2010 02:07:02 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by signal2noise:
The politicizing of this issue is incredibly curious. This is an industrial accident of the worst kind and with the absolute worst timing... not to say there's ever good timing for something of this nature. It's not government failure, it's not environmental activism, it's not sabotage, it's not terrorism. It's an industrial accident, the likes of which we have never seen.
As many of you know, I am a policy, government and public affairs rep a "big oil" company. Our group's president was named to Obama's investigation team and the group I represent (R&D) has several scientists and engineers seconded to the BP coordination team trying to seal this rupture. What follows is merely my opinion and not company position.
As some have said, the best and brightest people in the world (from industry, academia, national labs, military and policy makers)are working this issue, and it is consuming them. No one involved has taken a cavalier approach to finding a solution and the attention to detail has been remarkable. No one is happy this occured and no one wants it to continue. What is truly scary is that this incredibly intelligent group has yet to discover a final solution other than the relief wells. That should frighten everyone. That basis alone make the legislative action of halting all deepwater drilling until verifyable, preventable solutions are in place a very prudent action. No one wants to see anyone lose their jobs, but jobs in lieu safety and environmental concerns is incredibly short-sighted. Many argue that this spill was preventable - it was - but it also exposed numerous gaps in what we thought were full-proof and fail-safe procedures and those need to be remedied immediately. The day this happened, our company did an immediate safety stand-down to see if there was a similar potentional in our deepwater operations.
The anger and frustration that people feel on all sides of this issue are understandable, but all the speculation of "doing this vs. this" and that it's anyone's fault beyond the lease holder/operator is completely misplaced.
Today's activity seems to be helping to capture more of the release, but nothing will be final,it appears, until the relief wells hit target.
I always thought one major incident in a critical marine environment would end all offshore activity - at least deepwater activity. While I'm glad I was wrong about that, clearly we need more regulation and oversight as we venture into the exploration of more challenging reservoirs. |
To back up what Tommy is saying (I also work in the energy business), this too shall pass. We will recover from this, the question is , “How long will it take?" Alaska still feels the effects of the Exxon Valdez some 20 years ago.
What we can do as concerned citizens, while acknowledging we will not be able to rid ourselves of fossil fuels in the near term, is demand from our elected officials that modern disaster recovery plans be created, tested and implemented as soon as possible.
1. Write your elected officials, from both parties, and demand that they require the energy industry to modernize their disaster recovery plans. The current technology for cutting off a well is 30-40 years old and never designed for or tested in deep water. No one wants excessive government regulation, but this is a prime example where intelligent oversight would benefit all.
2. Don't waste your time politicizing the issue. Trying to put blame on either political party for this at this point is useless and counterproductive. This is not Obama's Katrina, no matter how bad some people want it to be.
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06/04/2010 02:19:55 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If the government had required blowout preventers, regular inspections, real safety oversight, thicker riser sidewalls, and anything else you might think of to prevent this situation, it still could have happened. But if we continue to elect representatives who believe that government is in the way of industry, and allow corporations to operate with only actuarial tables to guide them, they must seek out maximum profits, and such events will continue to happen, as long as the costs of failure are lower than the costs of prevention. |
BOP are tested and inspected regularly, riser sidewalls are determined by (FEED) front-end engineering and design specification and when done to spec are perfectly adequate. There are a myriad of other equipment safeguards and requirements: hydrostatic testing, bore pressure, mud composition, etc. The field development plans are incredibly sound and function appropriately 99.9% of the time. If this were a systemic design flaw we'd have many more instances of this. We haven't. The fault and failures in this case are operator issues either ignoring warning signs or taking procedural shortcuts. I would equate your stance to blaming the voting public for someone dying in a car wreck because that person was not wearing their seat belt because we didn't vote people in office to pass laws requiring that seatbelts be automatic - removing the responsibility of the person themselves. Again, operator error here. It will force greater regulation and oversight, which is good and necessary, but this was not "caused" by lack of oversight, it was caused by operator not following procedure. |
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06/04/2010 02:22:26 PM · #65 |
The title might as well be (BP) c(r)apping the oil. What a disaster!
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06/04/2010 02:24:09 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Very distressing. |
Very Very Sad!!! Makes me want to go beat some BP ass! |
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06/04/2010 02:27:24 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Very distressing. |
Very Very Sad!!! Makes me want to go beat some BP ass! |
Whilst I truly understand that sentiment, the reality of it is BP would not be drilling if the consumers were not buying. :( So, in a sense, we all have a part in this.
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06/04/2010 02:36:22 PM · #68 |
"The hallowed" (currency) "is a cheap substitute for cultural values lost to greed and ambivalence in post-modern" America. Economic worth has displaced traditional cultural values defining self-worth. Self-worth is gauged by buying power. The acts of buying and owning reinforce self-worth within consumer society. You can see it in the haughty and demanding attitude of the consumer as he stands before the cashier. No longer does the purchase have to be justified by purpose."
Unfortunately this is growing worldwide, not just in the Americas:-(
Originally posted by karmat:
Whilst I truly understand that sentiment, the reality of it is BP would not be drilling if the consumers were not buying. :( So, in a sense, we all have a part in this. |
Message edited by author 2010-06-04 14:36:50.
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06/04/2010 02:37:25 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by signal2noise:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If the government had required blowout preventers, regular inspections, real safety oversight, thicker riser sidewalls, and anything else you might think of to prevent this situation, it still could have happened. But if we continue to elect representatives who believe that government is in the way of industry, and allow corporations to operate with only actuarial tables to guide them, they must seek out maximum profits, and such events will continue to happen, as long as the costs of failure are lower than the costs of prevention. |
BOP are tested and inspected regularly, riser sidewalls are determined by (FEED) front-end engineering and design specification and when done to spec are perfectly adequate. There are a myriad of other equipment safeguards and requirements: hydrostatic testing, bore pressure, mud composition, etc. The field development plans are incredibly sound and function appropriately 99.9% of the time. If this were a systemic design flaw we'd have many more instances of this. We haven't. The fault and failures in this case are operator issues either ignoring warning signs or taking procedural shortcuts. I would equate your stance to blaming the voting public for someone dying in a car wreck because that person was not wearing their seat belt because we didn't vote people in office to pass laws requiring that seatbelts be automatic - removing the responsibility of the person themselves. Again, operator error here. It will force greater regulation and oversight, which is good and necessary, but this was not "caused" by lack of oversight, it was caused by operator not following procedure. |
Accidents and human error can always happen, regardless of the regulations and oversite. The key is a proven disaster recovery plan for when these things do happen, and that is what is tragically lacking in the case. |
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06/04/2010 02:39:46 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Very distressing. |
Very Very Sad!!! Makes me want to go beat some BP ass! |
Whilst I truly understand that sentiment, the reality of it is BP would not be drilling if the consumers were not buying. :( So, in a sense, we all have a part in this. |
True we as consumers do but I did not have a part in the spill. I also did not design the auto and the fuel that is used. I had no control over drilling and I am not responsible for the leak. The residual death of flora, fauna and human life in this disaster is disgusting and I hope things will get better and the process changed but I know this won't happen. It will be a bunch of hearings and lip service but payola will keep the status quo. And in my mind my "sentiment" stands, someone at BP needs an ass whippin'!
Message edited by author 2010-06-04 14:57:37. |
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06/04/2010 02:49:12 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by signal2noise:
Again, operator error here. It will force greater regulation and oversight, which is good and necessary, but this was not "caused" by lack of oversight, it was caused by operator not following procedure. |
You know more of this situation than I do, and your facts and reasoning seem sound. However, despite BPs bad actions here, the blame can not be set squarely on them and not be shared by the system that failed to stop those actions. BP accounted for 829 of the 851 willful violations among all refiners cited by OSHA between June 2007 and February 2010. When an operator is allowed to pile up violation after violation, outstripping the others it could be compared to, by orders of magnitude, and it is allowed to continue to behave this way, then oversight has been ineffective in stopping the inevitable catastrophe.
If the only lesson we learn form this sad state of affairs are applied to individuals and not systems, if we continue to believe that government is too large and only individual choice can be relied upon to follow procedure then we had better get better at cleaning up the messes, because be it blowups on Wall Street, or blowouts in the gulf, we are going to have more of them. |
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06/04/2010 02:50:01 PM · #72 |
I think karmat just yanko'd me! I'm not sure I've ever been yanko'd before.
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06/04/2010 03:04:23 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If the only lesson we learn form this sad state of affairs are applied to individuals and not systems, if we continue to believe that government is too large and only individual choice can be relied upon to follow procedure then we had better get better at cleaning up the messes, because be it blowups on Wall Street, or blowouts in the gulf, we are going to have more of them. |
Can't really address your point on government being too large, as I don't see how that pertains to the spill, but I believe that the magnitude, fallout, cost and ramifications of this spill will all but guarantee that it doesn't happen again and the additional oversight and regulation to follow will be applied to all exploration activity - onshore, offshore, shallow, deep and ultradeep... and probably not just in the US, but globally. When other E&P companies see the cost in fines & damages, lost production and lost leasing opportunities, etc. beyond the increase in standard operational costs, we'll see a focus on personnel safety and equipment reliability and environmental impact increase exponentially. To an extent, that would happen without additional regulation, but with it, virtually guaranteed. |
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06/04/2010 03:11:03 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by signal2noise:
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
If the only lesson we learn form this sad state of affairs are applied to individuals and not systems, if we continue to believe that government is too large and only individual choice can be relied upon to follow procedure then we had better get better at cleaning up the messes, because be it blowups on Wall Street, or blowouts in the gulf, we are going to have more of them. |
Can't really address your point on government being too large, as I don't see how that pertains to the spill, but I believe that the magnitude, fallout, cost and ramifications of this spill will all but guarantee that it doesn't happen again and the additional oversight and regulation to follow will be applied to all exploration activity - onshore, offshore, shallow, deep and ultradeep... and probably not just in the US, but globally. When other E&P companies see the cost in fines & damages, lost production and lost leasing opportunities, etc. beyond the increase in standard operational costs, we'll see a focus on personnel safety and equipment reliability and environmental impact increase exponentially. To an extent, that would happen without additional regulation, but with it, virtually guaranteed. |
I still remember Valdez though. So all we will really guarantee is we won't have a spill in exactly this way again. We'll likely have another, but it will be due to something else unforseen or deemed unimportant or too onerous to regulate.
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06/04/2010 03:14:50 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Very distressing. |
Very Very Sad!!! Makes me want to go beat some BP ass! |
makes me want to go help the bird from drowning in a shallow grave it can't fly out of rather than take pictures and video... |
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