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06/06/2010 03:07:18 PM · #1 |
So, on the heels of this thread I would like to announce to DPC that I am a recently reformed voter.. I used to regularly give 3's and even 1's semi regularly, thinking that it was "all a part of the curve".. And indeed, that is OK if you choose to do so, but I have recently examined my beliefs about my voting habits, and I have found that I do not believe I was correct in my voting before.
If you should "join" me, the details are entirely up to you, but the idea is that I'm pledging to really attempt to appreciate every photo, and to assume that in almost every case the photo is what the person felt was their best. Through this appreciation, I expect that I will give a higher average than I have been giving before.
Essentially the quality of the 'average' work here is far above average, and as such, I would like to very publicly announce that I am intending on raising my voting average to a 6.5, and I will do so through the means listed below, this list is not meant to be specific to anyone but myself, this is only my pledge, you may however adapt it to your taste and preferences if you should deem it to be a worthy starting point.
1. I will vote 6 for images I consider 'average' or 'plain'.. And this means a even reasonably decent snapshot will get a 5...
2. I will only give out scores below a 5 for truly horrible work, and I will comment on those entries - even if only to congratulate you on your attempt for the brown...
3. I will give out at least one 10 in every challenge, and there will be a collection of 9's as well.
4. I will gladly distribute 7's, and if you impress me you can have an 8..
5. I will vote 100% in any challenge I vote in, since, because I am voting higher, partial voting would penalize those who didn't get a score.
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I do this because it's fun for me (I like making people feel good), and the highest score on any photograph here, ever, was an 8.5... That was long, long ago, and we almost never see an 8 now. The photography on this site is wonderful, and frankly, I would like to see the average score of winning photographs rank as an 8.5 regularly, and I would love to see extraordinary photos approach the 10 that they really deserve.
I know there will be the detractors, they will say this will skew the curve, etc. etc. etc.. Sure it will, and why shouldn't the curve be skewed? I know that most of us are not so inept as to enter what should be given a 4 or below.. So, really, IMHO, the curve should start at 3 and peak at 7, dropping again to 10.. Now the curve is actually skewed (when we look at final results) to the center of the 10 scale, which actually doesn't represent the quality of the work being submitted here.
So, if you choose to, you are most welcome to join me in rewarding everyone's excellent work, as they/we really do deserve it, and I think you'll likely find it personally satisfying as well. Wouldn't it be amazing to see the winning photos approach a score of 10? Although I don't really think that will ever happen, I know I think that would be superb..
If you prefer not to do this, that's absolutely great, but I would ask you to take a few hours and really question your voting beliefs, and if you feel that you have any insight that you would like to share, please do!
Cheers everyone,
Cory B
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 16:04:02. |
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06/06/2010 03:08:40 PM · #2 |
**Changed my pledge after thinking about it**
I promise to vote on the quality of the photo and the creativity the photographer used. I promise to keep my "bad day mojo" out of my scoring. I have a scale that I use and it seems to be very fair... but I also can not say that I will not give a 1 2 or 3 for stuff that I find to be horrible in quality or just plain ick. However I do not give 1s or 2s if it just comes across as a snapshot.
The way I vote is I do a quick vote... split everything into 3 catogories... 1 5 and 10... then I go back thru and slowly filter them and move them to where I feel they should be. This is when I comment and take a more detailed look. It works for me... and I think its fair.
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 17:45:37.
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06/06/2010 03:47:29 PM · #3 |
| I'm not going to adjust my voting, but at an average cast of a little over 6, I'm not far off from what you are suggesting. I do however, normally give out a handful of 4's in most challenges and the occasional 3. |
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06/06/2010 03:58:59 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I'm not going to adjust my voting, but at an average cast of a little over 6, I'm not far off from what you are suggesting. I do however, normally give out a handful of 4's in most challenges and the occasional 3. |
I could see how easy this might be to misuderstand..
The pledge isn't to do as I'm doing, just to examine your voting, and truly consider what the photo deserves.
I think your average and method is great, you were actually a bit of the inspiration for me to do this... You and  Bear_Music.
So, I'm going to go edit that first post a bit to make this clearer, but if you're "joining" me, all you're doing is making a pledge to show appreciation through a system of regularly voting higher than the dismal '5' that is now seen as average by so many (me included until very recently..)..
Oh, and let's be clear, you have no need to reform, you're doing great in my opinion... As a matter of a fact, I've noticed that you've gotten a mention over in the extraordinary outreach award thread..-- well done..
As for giving out the handful of 4's? Sure, I understand that... There's always a few pieces of egregious crap in every challenge.. Reward them too, for some have tried hard to achieve that look.. :)
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 16:05:49. |
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06/06/2010 04:11:24 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I'm not going to adjust my voting, but at an average cast of a little over 6, I'm not far off from what you are suggesting. I do however, normally give out a handful of 4's in most challenges and the occasional 3. |
My average is 6.23 and I'm not afraid to use the whole scale....including 1's. |
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06/06/2010 04:13:11 PM · #6 |
Nice idea, but I don't think your suggestion is going to make much difference, as most folks feel their voting is already appropriate.
The only ones that I have any real issue with are the folks that cast an extremely low average (In the low 4's or less) and then complain in the scores thread about their entry doing poorly at a 5.8. By their own standards that is well above average and they should be pleased.
I have found that my own average vote has gone up over time, as I have learned to appreciate other genres of photography and learned to understand to see what the photographer was trying to accomplish or convey.
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 16:14:30. |
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06/06/2010 04:19:02 PM · #7 |
I totally second that.
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I have found that my own average vote has gone up over time, as I have learned to appreciate other genres of photography and learned to understand to see what the photographer was trying to accomplish or convey. |
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06/06/2010 04:33:08 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Nice idea, but I don't think your suggestion is going to make much difference, as most folks feel their voting is already appropriate.
The only ones that I have any real issue with are the folks that cast an extremely low average (In the low 4's or less) and then complain in the scores thread about their entry doing poorly at a 5.8. By their own standards that is well above average and they should be pleased.
I have found that my own average vote has gone up over time, as I have learned to appreciate other genres of photography and learned to understand to see what the photographer was trying to accomplish or convey. |
Probably true... However, the only difference I need to be worried about is me... And I promise, it's going to make a difference, if only a little one..
FWIW, this thread is as much about keeping me honest with myself, and everyone else, so keep an eye on my average, as it's going up baby! |
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06/06/2010 04:50:27 PM · #9 |
1) I pledge to look at a photo for a minimum of 5 seconds before jumping to a vote
2) I pledge to allow my emotions to have a greater say in my votes, rather that just voting high on technically perfect, or pretty photos
3) I pledge to make 1000 comments this year (I have around 300 so far, so I have some catching up to do).
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06/06/2010 04:52:59 PM · #10 |
This thread has the feel of calling out low voters, or accusing people of "not appreciating" photos by low voting. Yes, I read the part where you said this was an effort only at reforming yourself, but you are asking people to "join" you, so I feel it appropriate to say that I think your idea is wrong-headed. I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
Asking people to join you in rewarding mediocrity with an above-average vote of 6 is counter productive, it dilutes the quality of submissions further, and it does a disservice to people trying to learn from their poor scores.
So, that's the other side. |
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06/06/2010 04:53:34 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by JustCaree:
2. I will only give out scores below a 5 for truly horrible work, and I will comment on those entries - even if only to congratulate you on your attempt for the brown...
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This possibly could be that person's best work, if it were mine and I got a comment saying I was going for a the brown, I would have been offended.
This could differ from person to person...to one person horrible, to another..beautiful. That's what makes this all so fun.
anyway..
I don't see how its possible to say what you'll be voting before a challenge is presented. There has been many challenges where almost all entries were so great, it was hard to vote below a 7, and then, I've seen just the opposite..to where it was almost impossible to vote 6.
It really varies from challenge to challenge, from topic to topic, and from person to person.
Now, getting off my butt..going for a shoot... :)
Message edited by author 2010-06-06 16:55:52. |
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06/06/2010 04:59:46 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
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I respectfully disagree. The photos here only compete with each other, not the photos outside of this site. Being given a specific challenge, having restraints on the edits allowed, and a relatively short time frame in which to produce a photo are restraints not placed on all of the 'above average' shots outside of DPC.
When I vote, I vote on the merits of the photos on this site, without making comparisons to artwork presented elsewhere. |
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06/06/2010 05:06:58 PM · #13 |
Sorry, but I vote fairly on technical, content and appeal. There are many photos that are not perfect, but they capture the challenge. Do I vote them down? Nope. My criteria is they must meet the challenge first and foremost, then they must have an impact factor that makes me smile, frown, cry or gasp. Then, technicals crop up and I expect a good quality photo, well focused, composed and of a good size. I hate thumbnails of thumbnails!
Get your sizing right, do your best with PP and try your hardest to pick an interesting subject, then you get a good, above average vote from me. Fail on any of these and your score goes down. But, I rarely vote anyone below 4, cos that means you are completely out of the loop. Even a mediocre effect merits a 5.
But, judging by the Family Challenge, no-one was at home! It really is the worst crop of photos I have voted on. There were good shots, but there were many that belong in the garbage bin! |
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06/06/2010 05:08:20 PM · #14 |
This is a good reminder for newbies (like me) to get us to think a bit deeper about voting. It is all to easy to get more strict after a few weeks/months in DPC, as one thinks of oneself as an expert voter/scorer, as one is definitely not becoming an expert photographer so soon! I have not been giving out 10's. I have (just now) given it a bit of thought, and came to the conclusion that I have been thinking that only the best picture in the whole world should get a 10. I will adjust this silly thought-process to the more appropriate one of giving a 10 to the exceptional photo(s) in every challenge.
I went through the challenges that I voted on, when the winners were announced. I compared my score with the average given by commenters to the top and bottom finishers, where my score was more than 3 points different from theirs. I then decided for myself, if I think I made a mistake in giving my vote, and if I can undestand why the commenters would have given theirs. I quickly came to see that I vote "arty" photo's higher, and they vote photo's with good (appropriate) PP higher than me. More than half the time I didn't even know that PP was done/was available. So I'm happy with my average (5.94) but will give more 10's from now on. |
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06/06/2010 05:13:45 PM · #15 |
I promise to continue to vote in the same manner as I have for a while based on what I think is honest and fair.
I also promise not to try to project my feelings on the subject onto others as everyone has the right to vote as they see fit.
I will comment based on my impressions and whether or not the images conveys having met the challenge, I will not suggest to the photog how to "fix" their image simply because they presented it in a different manner than I might have....
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06/06/2010 05:19:09 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
FWIW, this thread is as much about keeping me honest with myself, and everyone else, so keep an eye on my average, as it's going up baby! |
So, even if the quality goes down you're telling us that your average vote given will go up. That tells me you don't know what a good photograph is, sorry. You're going to vote just to get your average up, hmm, that just sounds wrong, again, sorry.
This thread is just plain silly. :) |
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06/06/2010 05:22:06 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
1. I will vote 6 for images I consider 'average' or 'plain'.
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Ok, I just did. I like my voting scale, but for the sake of this experiment, I just finished voting in the freestudy. I bumped everyone up one point from my typical voting scale. An average image was given a six. My stats for the freestudy are this:
You have given an average score of 6.5132.
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06/06/2010 05:23:38 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
FWIW, this thread is as much about keeping me honest with myself, and everyone else, so keep an eye on my average, as it's going up baby! |
So, even if the quality goes down you're telling us that your average vote given will go up. That tells me you don't know what a good photograph is, sorry. You're going to vote just to get your average up, hmm, that just sounds wrong, again, sorry.
This thread is just plain silly. :) |
That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it... However, I see no problem at all with moving my scale up a number... (which is effectively what I'm doing), and not being a dick and giving out 1's for photos that aren't really the worst thing I've ever seen...
I won't just be randomly throwing out high votes.. I'm voting higher.. Not stupid.. |
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06/06/2010 05:25:17 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by njsabs:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
1. I will vote 6 for images I consider 'average' or 'plain'.
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Ok, I just did. I like my voting scale, but for the sake of this experiment, I just finished voting in the freestudy. I bumped everyone up one point from my typical voting scale. An average image was given a six. My stats for the freestudy are this:
You have given an average score of 6.5132. |
Cool! That's the spirit I'm looking for.. I do wonder, did it feel good to you? I know I enjoyed voting a bit higher... |
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06/06/2010 05:25:53 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I promise to continue to vote in the same manner as I have for a while based on what I think is honest and fair.
I also promise not to try to project my feelings on the subject onto others as everyone has the right to vote as they see fit.
I will comment based on my impressions and whether or not the images conveys having met the challenge, I will not suggest to the photog how to "fix" their image simply because they presented it in a different manner than I might have.... |
Superb!
{since it wasn't obvious enough for Jeb... I figured I should note here that I chose to ignore his first insult, it was not missed or disregarded..}
Message edited by author 2010-06-07 23:42:07. |
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06/06/2010 05:27:06 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by SteveJ:
Sorry, but I vote fairly on technical, content and appeal. There are many photos that are not perfect, but they capture the challenge. Do I vote them down? Nope. My criteria is they must meet the challenge first and foremost, then they must have an impact factor that makes me smile, frown, cry or gasp. Then, technicals crop up and I expect a good quality photo, well focused, composed and of a good size. I hate thumbnails of thumbnails!
Get your sizing right, do your best with PP and try your hardest to pick an interesting subject, then you get a good, above average vote from me. Fail on any of these and your score goes down. But, I rarely vote anyone below 4, cos that means you are completely out of the loop. Even a mediocre effect merits a 5.
But, judging by the Family Challenge, no-one was at home! It really is the worst crop of photos I have voted on. There were good shots, but there were many that belong in the garbage bin! |
No sorry at all... That seems perfect fair! |
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06/06/2010 05:30:38 PM · #22 |
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06/06/2010 05:34:40 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Louis:
This thread has the feel of calling out low voters, or accusing people of "not appreciating" photos by low voting. Yes, I read the part where you said this was an effort only at reforming yourself, but you are asking people to "join" you, so I feel it appropriate to say that I think your idea is wrong-headed. I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
Asking people to join you in rewarding mediocrity with an above-average vote of 6 is counter productive, it dilutes the quality of submissions further, and it does a disservice to people trying to learn from their poor scores.
So, that's the other side. |
Louis... -- Certainly not at all intended to call out low voters... You're welcome to vote an average of 3 if you please.. I would, admittedly, see an average of 3 on a profile and think "hmm, what a dick..".. But you are certainly welcome to vote as you see fit.
This is actually intended to call out those who haven't examined their voting, and is only meant to apply to those who have interest in being the change they wish to see here at DPC.. I guess you don't fall into this category, or at least the change you would like to see is different from my vision.. So, cool.. Vote your way.. I still have the right to encourage others to examine what they are doing.
As per your suggestion that giving an average photo a vote of 6 being counter productive- I ask you to really examine your beliefs on this, as I think they are "wrongheaded".. Assuming that my thread had a much larger effect than it ever will, let's pretend the average of a winning shot does go up to 9.2 or so... Would you feel great about that 7.1 of yours then? Of course you wouldn't... So as long as I vote higher across the entire challenge, there will be an equal net effect, and although someone may score a small bit higher because of me, I assure you that when they are still 3 points behind the winner, they won't feel great about it, or feel like they have accomplished something great... Remember it's all relative..
Cheers. |
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06/06/2010 05:35:43 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I don't believe that the photos here are generally above average. I actually believe the opposite. Out of any challenge, only a few are above average, and sometimes none.
Asking people to join you in rewarding mediocrity with an above-average vote of 6 is counter productive, it dilutes the quality of submissions further, and it does a disservice to people trying to learn from their poor scores. |
Louis, your very high average certainly establishes you as one of the better photographers on this site. You have the right to call them as you see fit. However, it would be awesome if you could offer insight and suggestions to help the rest of us improve, instead of just telling everyone else what mediocre crap our stuff is. That is probably not your reason for being on DPC, however. |
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06/06/2010 05:36:18 PM · #25 |
LOL, thanks I think.. ;)..
Effectively, you're exactly right - there is no real difference.. The only person this really makes much difference to is the person who is voting... And hell yes, absolutely, crank it up to 11 man.. :) |
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