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03/06/2011 10:50:23 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by alohadave:
wow... I'm a little floored by the people who are so cavalier about the holocaust.
Is it really any worse than trying to use it in an online photo contest? |
I thought about that, as well, when I was considering the shoes in the holocaust museum. My reason was because they made such an incredible impact on me, I wanted to show people who perhaps hadn't had a chance to see it.
It's an interesting question, but when you read the photographer's comments on the picture in question, it sounds like it was also the case  cnovack being deeply moved by something, and wanting to move other people as well. When history is forgotten, it tends to be repeated. It is repeated. Genocide is still a problem. There's nothing wrong with trying to make people remember and care. |
Yes, it could be interpreted as riding the coattails of emotion and trying to get votes from that angle - BUT was the composition strong enough to carry over the message? For some yes, for others it failed because the elements within did not 'leap off the page'; they were not seen or it was too harsh on the eyes and of course - voter fatique. And as discussion shows the technicals did have a significant roll in voting. As I mentioned earlier, I only had hopes that it would be in the 5.6 to 5.7 range and was a bit disheartened on where it fell - at least it did finish over a 5 for it was in the 4.7- 4.9 in early voting which left me thinking that to many, the subject matter was lost.
Well I knew that the discussion would turn to the emotion. Wendy, yes, I did want to share...and yes, there is a personal connection too. Wendy you also saliently put it - When history is forgotten, it tends to be repeated. Genocide is still a problem. Hate does not disappear.:
The Holocaust (and ALL it's victims)
Darfur
Armenian Genocide, 1915–1917
Sarajevo
Hutu mass killings of Tutsi in the Rwandan Genocide of 1994
and the list can go on and on. Human history is a rather bloody one.
I do appreciate the honesty of those who expressed that the image held no emotion for them because they could not relate. ......thinking long and hard about a respectful response that is not an attack nor heavy handed preaching....well there is no infallible balanced response. And truthfully, without a little passion in a declaration it is doomed to be forgotten yes?. Compassion need not be limited to just one group of people or fixed in the present that we forget the past. Compassion for others enriches us and ennobles us.
Message edited by author 2011-03-06 22:55:41. |
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03/06/2011 10:51:27 PM · #27 |
I think a subject like this is very difficult to avoid heavy handedness. I didn't vote on it, but my sense is it may suffer a bit from this aspect. I've sat here for two minutes trying to explain what I mean, but I'm not sure I can. The subject matter may have a hundred different approaches, but it's possible only one or two capture that impact.
I dunno. I'm probably wrong. It sounds like most people didn't even see the Auswitz so I guess for them it wasn't heavy handed enough... :) |
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03/06/2011 10:58:24 PM · #28 |
I think the technicals hurt it, but sadly, I also have to say that I think many don't care.
That was my conclusion after talking to many people about my entry in Why (I'm not arguing it's a phenomenal photo or that the score should've been higher):
I had a multi-email discussion with someone who just didn't think it was relevant to today's world. Which flabbergasts me, but at least it was a wakeup call.
Regardless, keep entering shots with emotional impact. Even if some miss it, others get it.
Thanks for thinking about it, shooting it, and entering it.
Message edited by author 2011-03-06 23:00:49. |
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03/06/2011 11:08:26 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Here is a rough schematic of how I think you could have arranged the shadow of the gate for a more realistic/accurate effect:
I think the composition from the perspective of entering the gate is important; it yields many ironical contrasts (e.g. the opposite of the Yellow Brick Road, the light at the end of the tunnel, etc.).
The idea is really good. I often look at challenge entries -- posted for a first look under a tight deadline -- as the same "rough" or "first draft" I'd be showing a design client for feedback before creating a final version. I encourage you to consider re-doing this image under less constrained conditions. |
Thanks, I do have it on the docket to try it again and will utilize the sketch in one of the designs. I also think that the ground itself may need to be more of a compact dirt and one without so many small particles of wood chips, dirt crumbles and such - also I will add another wire around the edges of the words so that it shows up in the shadow and thus look more like the gate. Maybe I should also employ the trick of vaseloine on a glass plate in front of the lens to get softened 'vintage' feel/lensbaby type look. |
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03/06/2011 11:20:43 PM · #30 |
FWIW, there are some powerful shots that do well at DPC, but good composition and technique still matter. This one won the Hate challenge:
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03/09/2011 07:53:16 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I didn't vote, but at the same time, if I had, I wouldn't have added anything for any emotional resonance. I know my history, and I know what Auschwitz was but truthfully I don't much care. History is something to learn from for certain, but I am not jewish have no jewish connections and believe the world is beginning to move on. I have no emotional attachment outside of "It's too bad that happened", and even then it's tenuous at best.
I think that this is true for more people than not these days as well. A photo like that just makes me shrug. |
Wow.
Having spent several years in the last decade stopping people on three different continents from trying to kill their neighbours for no better reasons than the Nazis had, I find the idea that the Holocaust (as one example of genocide) is not relevant today just a little short sighted.
Nuff said.
Actually, not enough said - I don't think I have any better words than those of Pastor Niemoller, talking about the failure of the German intellectuals to stop the rise of the Nazis:
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me. |
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03/09/2011 09:27:23 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by FrankRobinson:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I didn't vote, but at the same time, if I had, I wouldn't have added anything for any emotional resonance. I know my history, and I know what Auschwitz was but truthfully I don't much care. History is something to learn from for certain, but I am not jewish have no jewish connections and believe the world is beginning to move on. I have no emotional attachment outside of "It's too bad that happened", and even then it's tenuous at best.
I think that this is true for more people than not these days as well. A photo like that just makes me shrug. |
Wow.
Having spent several years in the last decade stopping people on three different continents from trying to kill their neighbours for no better reasons than the Nazis had, I find the idea that the Holocaust (as one example of genocide) is not relevant today just a little short sighted.
Nuff said.
Actually, not enough said - I don't think I have any better words than those of Pastor Niemoller, talking about the failure of the German intellectuals to stop the rise of the Nazis:
First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me. |
If there was a like button on this forum, I'd like this post. So much really is relevant to today. |
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03/09/2011 10:39:15 AM · #33 |
The "Auschwitz" is clear enough, the Star of David visible, the connotation obvious. I agree with Jason that it's difficult to avoid being heavy-handed with this subject matter. Beyond the technical issues this photo has, perhaps its greatest limitation is cliché. For that, the responsibility is yours, not the voters.
Treating this subject photographically is very difficult, because it's been done so much before. You can't attempt journalism for the plethora of excellent photos already in existence, so a treatment of the subject matter is all that's left. Manipulation is almost inevitable. Someone mentioned the possibility of violating a Jewish person's sensibilities with such an image, and I think that's a very good point. Perhaps a Star of David shouldn't be used in this way.
How to handle such a subject? I'm very close to it -- both my grandfathers were German soldiers in WWII, and darkness comes with their pasts, and it goes all through my family. I'm sorry for pointing out my attempt to try this, but in 2007, I went to Dachau. I came away with this, this, this, this, this, and this. Not sure if they were successful, but I tried to consciously avoid the in-your-face message. |
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03/09/2011 05:08:49 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by krnlzbth:
Originally posted by FrankRobinson:
[quote=K10DGuy] I didn't vote, but at the same time, if I had, I wouldn't have added anything for any emotional resonance. I know my history, and I know what Auschwitz was but truthfully I don't much care. History is something to learn from for certain, but I am not jewish have no jewish connections and believe the world is beginning to move on. I have no emotional attachment outside of "It's too bad that happened", and even then it's tenuous at best.
I think that this is true for more people than not these days as well. A photo like that just makes me shrug. |
Wow.
Having spent several years in the last decade stopping people on three different continents from trying to kill their neighbours for no better reasons than the Nazis had, I find the idea that the Holocaust (as one example of genocide) is not relevant today just a little short sighted. |
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall anyone suggesting that the Holocaust was irrelevant.
Ray |
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03/11/2011 08:16:08 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by krnlzbth:
Originally posted by FrankRobinson:
[quote=K10DGuy] I didn't vote, but at the same time, if I had, I wouldn't have added anything for any emotional resonance. I know my history, and I know what Auschwitz was but truthfully I don't much care. History is something to learn from for certain, but I am not jewish have no jewish connections and believe the world is beginning to move on. I have no emotional attachment outside of "It's too bad that happened", and even then it's tenuous at best.
I think that this is true for more people than not these days as well. A photo like that just makes me shrug. |
Wow.
Having spent several years in the last decade stopping people on three different continents from trying to kill their neighbours for no better reasons than the Nazis had, I find the idea that the Holocaust (as one example of genocide) is not relevant today just a little short sighted. |
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall anyone suggesting that the Holocaust was irrelevant.
Ray |
Interesting - when I read K10Dguys comment, I see nothing else but that suggestion. Of course, you are both entitled to your opinions. That is what we military guys risk our lives to protect. Just a shame that so many others have died for theirs for us to 'not care' and to 'move on'. |
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03/11/2011 10:12:08 AM · #36 |
This would be true for me also....You created an emotional image that came from your emotions. Your disappointment is justified....
Originally posted by vawendy:
voter fatigue. Definitely. After looking at 191 pictures of shoes, I didn't notice the Star of David or the Auschwitz. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't spend enough time looking at it, because there were just so many pictures of shoes.
It was a lesson for me. I will not vote so quickly in the future. I gave it a 6. I would have bumped it up a point for making a statement. |
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03/11/2011 11:31:56 AM · #37 |
to use the shoa to try to win a ribbon
is utterly ......i cant find no words for this....
Message edited by author 2011-03-11 11:34:36. |
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03/11/2011 12:11:43 PM · #38 |
I think  Louis is right.
The image is too contrived, too "in your face" with its message. |
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03/11/2011 12:45:30 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by FrankRobinson:
Interesting - when I read K10Dguys comment, I see nothing else but that suggestion. Of course, you are both entitled to your opinions. That is what we military guys risk our lives to protect. Just a shame that so many others have died for theirs for us to 'not care' and to 'move on'. |
Well, I feel that we fought to give them the chance not to care as well. I just see it as a shame that they do not. Ethnic cleansing is not all that much different from before. Today's despots have simply realized that you do not have to kill everyone. Just kill some and the rest will usually flee. The real lesson should be that history does, and will, repeat itself as long as we allow it. This seems to be one lesson that is repeatedly lost on the world.
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03/15/2011 09:28:15 PM · #40 |
| First off, I now see it as very poignant and meaningful - but only after seeing this thread. Upon visual viewing only, it DID NOT catch my attention upon first viewing and it didn't add up - probably due to the upside down text. But now I see the meaning, but even at that, it seems rather contrived. |
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