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10/12/2011 01:37:07 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
First off thank you all for your input here. The first three pages were well worth the read!
I am no longer going to participate in this thread because I feel as if it has not been kept on topic. If you would like to PM me about the situation feel free to do so.
Again thank you all for your time.
Good day to all. |
I was just going to post and tell you that I hoped you were reading, as a lot of these ambiguities might help you define what to do in your delicate situation. Good luck. |
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10/12/2011 01:38:28 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
First off thank you all for your input here. The first three pages were well worth the read!
I am no longer going to participate in this thread because I feel as if it has not been kept on topic. If you would like to PM me about the situation feel free to do so.
Again thank you all for your time.
Good day to all. |
Ciao stone thrower ;-) |
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10/12/2011 02:00:44 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ya, wiki, what a bunch of garbage, eh?
So, just to be clear. You don't have hypocrisy in your own life? I don't want to put words in your mouth. |
Never said that... The point is, should I find myself being a hypocrite, I stop - either by ceasing to espouse such untruths, or by ceasing to do what I believe is wrong. Of course, I also preface a ton of stuff with - "I think it's nice when".... |
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10/12/2011 02:07:18 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ya, wiki, what a bunch of garbage, eh?
So, just to be clear. You don't have hypocrisy in your own life? I don't want to put words in your mouth. |
Never said that... The point is, should I find myself being a hypocrite, I stop - either by ceasing to espouse such untruths, or by ceasing to do what I believe is wrong. Of course, I also preface a ton of stuff with - "I think it's nice when".... |
OK. Clear enough. I didn't see you preface the stuff about Christians with "I think it's nice when..." ;) |
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10/12/2011 02:08:53 PM · #130 |
| I find it interesting how many of the most opinionated in this world, when challenged in a way they lack the ability to easily respond to, will back off rather than reflect on their own statements. |
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10/12/2011 02:30:52 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Ya, wiki, what a bunch of garbage, eh?
So, just to be clear. You don't have hypocrisy in your own life? I don't want to put words in your mouth. |
Never said that... The point is, should I find myself being a hypocrite, I stop - either by ceasing to espouse such untruths, or by ceasing to do what I believe is wrong. Of course, I also preface a ton of stuff with - "I think it's nice when".... |
OK. Clear enough. I didn't see you preface the stuff about Christians with "I think it's nice when..." ;) |
Help me out here... You're implying that I was being a hypocrite about something I said here. Please give me the exact quote you are referring to so obliquely. |
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10/12/2011 02:32:42 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
I find it interesting how many of the most opinionated in this world, when challenged in a way they lack the ability to easily respond to, will back off rather than reflect on their own statements. |
hmm... This puzzles me..
Please elaborate, so I can better understand what you are saying. |
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10/12/2011 02:34:36 PM · #133 |
It's the whole "practice what you preach" thing. Many Christians are very good at telling others how they should live their lives and then condemning them when they fail to measure up. The same ones are often very poor at doing so in their own lives.
What they say: "you must abstain from pre-marital sex, drinking, drugs and gambling"
What they do: Smoke a few blunts before picking up the hookers on the way to the casino where they can drink for free. |
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10/12/2011 02:44:30 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
It's the whole "practice what you preach" thing. Many Christians are very good at telling others how they should live their lives and then condemning them when they fail to measure up. The same ones are often very poor at doing so in their own lives.
What they say: "you must abstain from pre-marital sex, drinking, drugs and gambling"
What they do: Smoke a few blunts before picking up the hookers on the way to the casino where they can drink for free. |
Stereotype much? All of them who fail to measure up Smoke a few blunts before picking up the hookers on the way to the casino where they can drink for free?? Sounds hypocritical to me...
Edit to rephrase
Message edited by author 2011-10-12 14:50:31. |
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10/12/2011 02:55:25 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Help me out here... You're implying that I was being a hypocrite about something I said here. Please give me the exact quote you are referring to so obliquely. |
Exhibit A (The precept): "Furthermore, if you say "It is good when someone" that is fine, no hypocrisy..."
Exhibit B (The claim): "I also preface a ton of stuff with - "I think it's nice when"...."
Exhibit C (The action): 1) I don't busy myself pretending to be someone I'm not, nor do I espouse beliefs that I do not hold. Both of those are quite "Christian" behaviors in my experience... 2) Frankly, the whole "it's human to fail" is just a load of shit excusing you for not having the strength or commitment to follow through on what you pretend to believe. 3) why Christians insist on making a fight out of everything just baffles the shit out of me. 4) Especially the part that he needs to excuse himself from the university. I suggest that you tell him he has 24 hours to notify the Dean himself, and then you're going to do it for him - after all, it is only right, and you would be doing a disservice to yourself, and all of the other good students there if he were allowed to stay. Hell, I say run the place broke - since no-one is listening to the contract, then they all need to be removed from the school... When no-one is left to pay the bills I'm betting they'll fix that silly little contract thing right fast. I'd LOVE to see someone shoot this system of hypocrisy down, and I'd damn sure respect the person who did so from a position of honest indignation, as you Marko, are actually entitled to here.
All of those statement have a direct implication that something someone else (ie. Christians) is doing is wrong. It seems your precept is to allow for toleration by using the hedging "It is good when someone" or "I think it's nice when" (and implying "but this is my opinion only"). But your words betray you and reflect an attitude where you have no respect for those you disagree with and think they are wrong in no uncertain terms.
At this point we should either wiki or define "irony"...
Message edited by author 2011-10-12 14:55:41. |
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10/12/2011 02:58:21 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
Help me out here... You're implying that I was being a hypocrite about something I said here. Please give me the exact quote you are referring to so obliquely. |
Exhibit A (The precept): "Furthermore, if you say "It is good when someone" that is fine, no hypocrisy..."
Exhibit B (The claim): "I also preface a ton of stuff with - "I think it's nice when"...."
Exhibit C (The action): 1) I don't busy myself pretending to be someone I'm not, nor do I espouse beliefs that I do not hold. Both of those are quite "Christian" behaviors in my experience... 2) Frankly, the whole "it's human to fail" is just a load of shit excusing you for not having the strength or commitment to follow through on what you pretend to believe. 3) why Christians insist on making a fight out of everything just baffles the shit out of me. 4) Especially the part that he needs to excuse himself from the university. I suggest that you tell him he has 24 hours to notify the Dean himself, and then you're going to do it for him - after all, it is only right, and you would be doing a disservice to yourself, and all of the other good students there if he were allowed to stay. Hell, I say run the place broke - since no-one is listening to the contract, then they all need to be removed from the school... When no-one is left to pay the bills I'm betting they'll fix that silly little contract thing right fast. I'd LOVE to see someone shoot this system of hypocrisy down, and I'd damn sure respect the person who did so from a position of honest indignation, as you Marko, are actually entitled to here.
All of those statement have a direct implication that something someone else (ie. Christians) is doing is wrong. It seems your precept is to allow for toleration by using the hedging "It is good when someone" or "I think it's nice when" (and implying "but this is my opinion only"). But your words betray you and reflect an attitude where you have no respect for those you disagree with and think they are wrong in no uncertain terms.
At this point we should either wiki or define "irony"... |
You puzzle me again... I did preface all of those as I feel it is correct to do, or at the very least made it very obvious that I'm talking about my opinion. And yes, I feel that they are wrong... I do not tell you that you must also feel they are wrong.
Tread cautiously on irony, it's rarely used correctly.
ETA: And to be fair, I was mostly having some fun with Jeb's statement. But- honestly Doc, how long do you think that university would be in business if they performed an audit (not that they really can, but IF), and kicked out every student who had breached their contract? It's a bit like the situation in this country with pot smokers / users... If you sent them all to jail everything would simply collapse, so it's a fine balance of intimidation, action, and mostly just looking the other way. And yes, I did just equate the drug war to typical Christian behavior.. Hell, I'll just go ahead and say it - the drug was was probably inspired by Christian beliefs....
Message edited by author 2011-10-12 15:06:44. |
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10/12/2011 03:08:26 PM · #137 |
"I think it's nice when"  Cory shuts his suck.
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10/12/2011 03:13:37 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by sinistral_leo:
Originally posted by Spork99:
It's the whole "practice what you preach" thing. Many Christians are very good at telling others how they should live their lives and then condemning them when they fail to measure up. The same ones are often very poor at doing so in their own lives.
What they say: "you must abstain from pre-marital sex, drinking, drugs and gambling"
What they do: Smoke a few blunts before picking up the hookers on the way to the casino where they can drink for free. |
Stereotype much? All of them who fail to measure up Smoke a few blunts before picking up the hookers on the way to the casino where they can drink for free?? Sounds hypocritical to me...
Edit to rephrase |
It's a generalization, yes.
I didn't say that they all say one thing and do another, but enough of them do exactly that. Jimmy Swaggart and his hookers. Jim Bakker's affair with Jessica Hahn along with the fraud and conspiracy that sent him to prison. Those are just a couple of the well known examples. Sounds like Brutus' roommate is another. |
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10/12/2011 03:18:54 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by sinistral_leo:
"I think it's nice when" Cory shuts his suck. |
Hmm... Your rational and intelligent comment has left me considering your side of this very strongly... How did you learn to use such strong logic in your arguments? From whom did you learn your amazing skills of persuasion?
heheh.. Weak. At least the Doc looks like he's thinking.
Don't worry though, I understand that it's a required part of your religion - the flock must stick together and all that, even if you don't exactly agree with each other, no greater evil than an outsider :) Remember my statement about the prey not hanging about with the predators? At least I understand this logic and think it makes good sense...
Anyway, what the hell is a "suck"? That's not even a noun for crying out loud... jeez. SMH
Message edited by author 2011-10-12 15:26:21. |
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10/12/2011 03:18:58 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Hell, I'll just go ahead and say it - the drug was was probably inspired by Christian beliefs.... |
lols, there are some schools of thought that the original anointing oils had hemp in them. To add, Jesus was not a christian. lols, now thats Irony. He would be kicked out of that school in a heart beat.
Message edited by author 2011-10-12 15:21:51. |
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10/12/2011 03:28:44 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
I find it interesting how many of the most opinionated in this world, when challenged in a way they lack the ability to easily respond to, will back off rather than reflect on their own statements. |
hmm... This puzzles me..
Please elaborate, so I can better understand what you are saying. |
Originally posted by Conversation History:
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
Here is the thing though. It wouldn\'t bother me if my roommate never said he was religious or tried to be a religious person. On the contrary he is the type of person who likes to sit in the front of the church praising and \"being a good Christian\" while in church. Even sometimes bringing up religion with me and how he is very much a believer and all the things that a \"good Christian\" would normally say. |
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
You can be Christian and believe there is nothing wrong with pre-marital sex you know? There are many differing beliefs within Christianity and just because someone is Christian does not mean they hold all the same beliefs and values as you, there may even be things you do (or don\'t do) that would lead others who believe in pre-marital sex to question your Christian values - it\'s good to keep perspective and realise that your own subset of Christian beliefs is not the only one. Unless of course your room mate has told you specifically that he does not believe in pre-marital sex? I\'d ignore the fact he\'s signed a contract to that effect since you\'ve already acknowledged that the majority going to your school don\'t sign this contract because it conforms to their beliefs - which from what I can tell is your main issue here. |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
Pardon the disagreement here but I have never in my life met a true Christian who believes that premarital sex is an \"okay\" thing to practice. |
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
What by your definition is a true Christian? |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
A person who is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings. |
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
And where in non-subjective terms does Jesus condemn premarital sex? |
Originally posted by mbrutus2009:
I feel like it is starting this result in a religious debate and that is not what I intended this thread to be. I mentioned Christianity for the sole reason that I had to put it in to show the circumstance at hand.
If this does not stop I will ask to lock the thread. Please, I don\'t want this to be a debate on religion. I was asking about my and my roommate not the beliefs of everyone related to their religious views compared to the previous poster. |
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
You instigated this by stating your main objection to your room mates behaviour was that he claimed to be religious and yet participates in activities that are against his own beliefs - I\'ve simply asked for proof (of which we so far have none) that his activities are contradictory to his own held beliefs (not to yours), and this is only an issue to me because your room mate violating supposedly his own beliefs is such a major sticking point to you. If your main reservations about your room mate are that he doesn\'t conform to your beliefs, then that is a different issue entirely. |
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So to surmise:
Marko: It wouldn\'t bother me if my room mate practised what he preached instead of claiming to be Christian but engaging in premarital sex.
Me: You can be Christian without having an issue with premarital sex.
Marko: A \'true\' Christian can\'t believe in premarital sex.
Me: So what\'s your definition of a \'true\' Christian?
Marko: A person who is a believe in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
Me: And where does Jesus teach that premarital sex is wrong?
Marko: I\'m not debating religion with you.
...and so to surmise this:
Marko states he has a problem with his room mate only because his room mate claims to follow the teachings of Jesus when in fact he doesn\'t; I ask Marko which of Jesus\'s teachings his room mate isn\'t following and Marko refuses to answer while still maintaining his opinion. Hint: to the best of my knowledge nowhere in the Bible does Jesus condemn premarital sex.
My statement comes about simply from personal experience with strongly opinionated people (which to me, Marko comes across as being) in the past, when challenged with a flaw in their reasoning, they will often side step the issue rather than face it and either correct themselves, or answer the challenge. |
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10/12/2011 03:29:02 PM · #142 |
I'll just leave it at this Cory. Take it for whatever it's worth. Yesterday they had an interesting story on NPR on Justice Thomas. At one point, someone who knew him said he was increasingly spending time only with people who agreed with him and he was consequently becoming more and more marginalized as the most conservative member of the court by a long shot.
You often seem like an angry dude. This is just my observation. I don't know if it's just young, male bravado or what. Instead of viewing the world as mostly people you dislike with a few people you love, try spending more time with others to get a broader view of the world and gain understanding. In the end this may bring more joy and happiness into your own life even if it is only to lower the irritant factor of those around you.
Ponder as you wish. |
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10/12/2011 03:34:27 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
My statement comes about simply from personal experience with strongly opinionated people (which to me, Marko comes across as being) in the past, when challenged with a flaw in their reasoning, they will often side step the issue rather than face it and either correct themselves, or answer the challenge. |
That is why the Romans were so cool. If they could not kill it, they adopted it. Saul was ahead of the curve. |
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10/12/2011 03:52:05 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'll just leave it at this Cory. Take it for whatever it's worth. Yesterday they had an interesting story on NPR on Justice Thomas. At one point, someone who knew him said he was increasingly spending time only with people who agreed with him and he was consequently becoming more and more marginalized as the most conservative member of the court by a long shot.
You often seem like an angry dude. This is just my observation. I don't know if it's just young, male bravado or what. Instead of viewing the world as mostly people you dislike with a few people you love, try spending more time with others to get a broader view of the world and gain understanding. In the end this may bring more joy and happiness into your own life even if it is only to lower the irritant factor of those around you.
Ponder as you wish. |
Never angry. Only passionate. (honestly, I really don't get angry about most things, it takes a VERY impressive event to raise my ire.)
I am, however, an aggressive person - which, mind you - has been quite a successful strategy for me.
ETA: Since we're sharing, I almost never see you argue about anything, except religion, and I don't suspect you enjoy that very much at all either. I see you as a very passive person who is perfectly content to follow the flock and graze peacefully, hoping the predators never come to call upon you or yours.
We're just different people Doc, and FWIW, I think there is a certain beauty about your worldview... It's just that living the life I have, such a worldview would have probably gotten me killed or worse. Although, you're probably right, I could relax today and just go about my business with no further worries, but it would seem that those old habits have stuck very firmly.
Message edited by author 2011-10-12 15:56:51. |
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10/12/2011 03:55:12 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
Hint: to the best of my knowledge nowhere in the Bible does Jesus condemn premarital sex. |
The best passages, if we are to limit ourself to Jesus' sayings would come in Matthew and Mark.
Matthew 5 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mark 7 And he said, "What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
The greek word in Mark 7 is "porneia" (from which we derive the word "pornography") and is different than adultery ("moicheia") which is also listed. And while you may object that you don't see any explicit use of the term "premarital", I think you'd have difficulty making the case for being able to condone premarital sex in the context of these two passages. |
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10/12/2011 03:57:03 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I am, however, an aggressive person - which, mind you - has been quite a successful strategy for me. |
I guess the next time a Christian tells you what you should do you can just understand they are aggressive as well... ;P |
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10/12/2011 04:03:14 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
Hint: to the best of my knowledge nowhere in the Bible does Jesus condemn premarital sex. |
The best passages, if we are to limit ourself to Jesus' sayings would come in Matthew and Mark.
Matthew 5 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mark 7 And he said, "What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, !!****---->sensuality<----****!!, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
The greek word in Mark 7 is "porneia" (from which we derive the word "pornography") and is different than adultery ("moicheia") which is also listed. And while you may object that you don't see any explicit use of the term "premarital", I think you'd have difficulty making the case for being able to condone premarital sex in the context of these two passages. |
Really? Sensuality? That's a sin!? How very protestant... "Ok, if you must have sex, just make sure you don't enjoy it..."
..
Wow.
BTW: Marko, not to put you on the spot buddy, but I'm betting that even with your perfect track record (virginity), you still masturbate, and have very sinful, lustful thoughts about those poor girls you wouldn't touch. Ever see any pornography? (FYI- Some groups feel that most of prime-time TV is pornography or worse)... Yeah...
Those standards you are trying so hard to adhere to? They're not fair or even possible - how can you possibly explain why you continue to do this? I'm still just puzzled as all hell why you people torture yourselves like this... Maybe that's it! Torture, it seems some Christians love that sort of thing, you know, the flagellation and the whole crucifixion thing... Hmm.... I think the church may need a good psychiatrist.. |
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10/12/2011 04:04:25 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Cory:
I am, however, an aggressive person - which, mind you - has been quite a successful strategy for me. |
I guess the next time a Christian tells you what you should do you can just understand they are aggressive as well... ;P |
I do... But they don't really usually seem to have their heart in it... Seems like often they're often only aggressive because they have to be... |
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10/12/2011 04:10:55 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Really? Sensuality? That's a sin!? How very protestant... "Ok, if you must have sex, just make sure you don't enjoy it..."
..
Wow.
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isn't that kinda like having sex after your married? |
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10/12/2011 04:11:39 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by HawkinsT:
Hint: to the best of my knowledge nowhere in the Bible does Jesus condemn premarital sex. |
The best passages, if we are to limit ourself to Jesus' sayings would come in Matthew and Mark.
Matthew 5 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mark 7 And he said, "What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
The greek word in Mark 7 is "porneia" (from which we derive the word "pornography") and is different than adultery ("moicheia") which is also listed. And while you may object that you don't see any explicit use of the term "premarital", I think you'd have difficulty making the case for being able to condone premarital sex in the context of these two passages. |
lols, Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc. |
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