Large format - 4x5 vs 8x10 same lens

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

10/06/2012 06:23:43 PM · #1

Just a quick question here, for the old timers. ;)

Assuming the same lens is being used, what differences would one see between 4x5 and 8x10 format?

My understanding is that the "look" of the photo (compression,bokeh,DOF,etc) would remain about the same, and the 4x5 format would effectively be a couple of stops faster.

Is that correct? Or is there more to this?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

10/06/2012 07:51:52 PM · #2

That's not correct. The difference is exactly the same sort of change as the difference between cropped sensors and FF sensors in the dSLR world. The 4x5 format is essentially a cropped-sensor version of the 8x10 format.

ETA: A good primer here: //www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-primer/

Message edited by author 2012-10-06 19:53:45.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

10/06/2012 08:03:33 PM · #3

Thanks Bear,

That's a great article.

I think I'll probably just end up getting a lens and building my own enclosure.

Maybe if this all works out I'll be sharing soon.

-CB

Message edited by author 2012-10-06 20:25:43.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

10/06/2012 08:31:55 PM · #4

You talking 4x5 or 8x10 here? If you had yer druthers, what would be the "35mm equivalent" for the lens? Wide/normal/tele? IN other words, you looking for the equivalent of the nifty fifty? Or what?

10/06/2012 08:45:16 PM · #5

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You talking 4x5 or 8x10 here? If you had yer druthers, what would be the "35mm equivalent" for the lens? Wide/normal/tele? IN other words, you looking for the equivalent of the nifty fifty? Or what?

Thinking I might want to go for something equivalent to about a 50..

In truth here is the real goal: Sharp details in focal plane (sharp enough anyway), and fantastic bokeh.

There are a few images that just stand out in my mind, but in the end I want something that on 8x10 just SCREAMS "Large Format", I'll deal with whatever focal length it is, but I don't think I want to go very long, nothing over say 90mm in 35mm equivalence. And I would probably like to do landscapes, but really shallow DOF landscapes, so I'm undecided on what would do well there, probably something equivalent to a 28mm or so.

.

So, if you were gonna be a cheapskate and try to buy a lens (or two) for this, what would you be looking at?

Additionally, in the housing I'm thinking of putting together, I'm thinking of foregoing the tilt/shift ability - do you think that would be a tragic mistake?

ETA: Oh- And I want to know more about the options for the ground glass too... Not guide lines and such, but rather different material choices and treatments. If such things exist.

--

This lens looks interesting. Not sure of the format though.

Message edited by author 2012-10-06 20:49:39.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/06/2012 08:56:24 PM · #6

Sounds interesting â�� what are you using to capture the image?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

10/06/2012 08:56:30 PM · #7

You're talking film here, right? If so, on a cost/benefit scale, 8x10 would be insanely expensive. Even 4x5 is nothing to sneeze at. I think you're out of your mind to try to build something, too. If you're gonna go large format, you may's well take advantage of being able to shift and tilt. You can position the plane of focus very precisely and shoot wide open, which sounds like what you need. Plus, reverse-tilting can isolate the focus to a VERY small band as well.

Sounds to me like 90mm or maybe 135 mm is right for you. Somewhere in that range. 90mm on 4x5 is about like a 28mm on FF 35mm cameras. If the former, nothing can beat a Schneider Super Angulon.

You're gonna need film holders, processing tanks, negative frames, all that hoo hah. You ready for this?

ETA: Look into old Horseman and Calumet monorail cameras. If you care less about the camera movements, you can get an old Graflex or Speed Graphic. Here's one for sale with 135mm lens and miscellaneous extras for $500, for example. The polaroid back being sold with it is a great thing to have.

//www.ebay.com/itm/Graflex-Crown-Graphic-4x5-Outfit-Lens-Rangefinder-Plates-Polaroid-Back-/280969828118?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item416b1b5716

Message edited by author 2012-10-06 21:02:09.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/06/2012 08:58:54 PM · #8

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You're gonna need film holders, processing tanks, negative frames, all that hoo hah. You ready for this?

... or an $18,000 Leaf 4x5 camera back ...

10/06/2012 08:59:14 PM · #9

:) We shall see, we shall see!

Really appreciate the advice guys!

10/06/2012 09:07:38 PM · #10

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I've been considering the 4x5 vs 8x10 thing... And I'm afraid that because of the way I'm planning on using this, it's likely I'll suffer a huge degradation in IQ, so I'm guessing the 8x10 might actually be a minimum, so much so that a larger format (think 20x30, really, honestly), might be the way to go.

Of course, I can't find any information of 20x30 format lenses, and how that whole thing would work, so unless somebody here knows something I might just have to experiment and see if I can get it to work.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/06/2012 10:21:42 PM · #11

If you're trying to go that big, perhaps make a small-scale camera obscura and eliminate the need for a lens altogether ...

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

10/06/2012 10:52:05 PM · #12

Make a 20x30 pinhole camera. :)

Think that's too big?

What are you planning that has you concluding that an 8x10 will not be enough?

Message edited by author 2012-10-06 22:52:20.

10/06/2012 11:03:55 PM · #13

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Make a 20x30 pinhole camera. :)

Think that's too big?

What are you planning that has you concluding that an 8x10 will not be enough?

Ok, I'll spill the beans.

I'm thinking of attempting to do the cheapest possible build of a digital large format that I can imagine.

I don't want to do pinhole, as that doesn't give me that "look" I'm after.

So, the "plan" (test) that I want to do is to attempt to shoot a ground glass plate and see what sort of results I get.

I'm afraid that I may need to go stupid big to get any real performance, as I think it's possible that 8x10 isn't going to have enough detail to even make my 8mp 20D happy. I've considered some other materials, like vellum paper, and doing a custom etch on some museum grade display glass using weak hydrofluoric acid on one side.

Bear thinks I'm pretty much crazy, but has offered some excellent advice, both on lenses and on exactly why I'm probably going to need a fresnel lens in front the GG.

Alternatively, I'm thinking about doing a camera obscura hybrid of sorts, using a lens, but putting a digital cam in the box too, and projecting the image onto a white plate, then shooting an image of that plate digitally - I should be able to put the camera at least somewhat close to the lens, minimizing distortion.

Thoughts?

Any help here is more than welcome. Just remember my goal is that "large format look", and my constraint is "cheap as hell".

:)

Message edited by author 2012-10-06 23:10:39.

10/06/2012 11:06:20 PM · #14

You know, if I do the camera obscura route, and shoot the image off a white plate, I think I could even tilt that plate a little, and use the tilt function of the large format lens to project the plane onto a tilted "film" plane, thereby allowing me to angle the digital camera towards the focal plane, and avoiding the need for a $2000 T/S lens.

Again, any thoughts.. I'm open to hearing that I'm just crazy, but it may or may not stop me. ;)

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

10/06/2012 11:26:07 PM · #15

Crazy is a given. ;)

Brian

bvy is the DIY man.

The Impossible Project is doing something similar with instant film and an iPhone as the digital device.

So you are planning on putting the 20D in the box? Like a giant TLR except you will need two taking lenses. The 20D to capture the projected image from the lens directly above. Correct?

Sounds fun, but if you want that "look" just shoot LF film and then scan the neg.

Message edited by author 2012-10-06 23:31:17.

bspurgeon

Fujifilm x100

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

10/06/2012 11:37:46 PM · #16

What about a scanner? You can pretend that you have a $$$$$ scanning digital back.

10/06/2012 11:41:39 PM · #17

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

Sounds fun, but if you want that "look" just shoot LF film and then scan the neg.

Couldn't put that in a challenge. ;)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/07/2012 12:48:50 AM · #18

Originally posted by bspurgeon:

What about a scanner? You can pretend that you have a $$$$$ scanning digital back.

I built the main part of this image (dino, rock background, etc.) directly on the bed of a scanner. I used it as a design for printed edible frosting for his birthday cake.