Frustrated . . .8 deviation btwn non-part & part

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

02/23/2022 01:30:50 AM · #1

I was a member here back in the glory days of DP . . . It was awesome. The sense of community and participation levels were phenomenal. I came back to re-energize my creativity which I will continue to do but I have to tell you my first two entries were disappointing to see the voting of participants vs non-participants. My next two that are in voting I am interested to see if it is just an image that is feared competitive to their own and perhaps garnering a higher score getting down voted or not, I entered two I know wonâ��t do well and will not be considered Top 10.

Is it that there is a person in it? I see there arenâ��t a ton of portrait images doing great any more.

At any rate, my rant is that if you are someone who downvotes, nobody likes to play a game where that happens and the site wonâ��t grow.

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

02/23/2022 01:47:37 AM · #2

Originally posted by ErinKirsten:

At any rate, my rant is that if you are someone who downvotes ...

Please elaborate. What does this mean?
Votes lower than you would have?
Someone who votes then later returns and lowers some images?

Tiberius

Samsung Galaxy S22, S22+, S22 Ultra

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

02/23/2022 02:52:11 AM · #3

You came back and got a top 10 and a red ribbon. That's some comeback! Well done and welcome back.

Maybe better discuss the current entries after voting is finished. I doubt that these few that we are left are downvoting, but you never know.

PennyStreet

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

02/23/2022 10:30:58 AM · #4

Congrats on your red ribbon. So long as we all continue to vote we remain a fair process.

02/23/2022 11:22:14 AM · #5

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
At any rate, my rant is that if you are someone who downvotes ...

Please elaborate. What does this mean?
Votes lower than you would have?
Someone who votes then later returns and lowers some images?

For me it is when someone votes an image lower in the hopes of raising their own collective score. Having a .8 difference between participants/non-participants is odd to me. Perhaps it is normal . . . Just doesnâ��t seem to be. I wondered if it was the use of humans that wasnâ��t a â��styleâ�� that is as welcome here as it once was.

02/23/2022 11:23:12 AM · #6

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Congrats on your red ribbon. So long as we all continue to vote we remain a fair process.

thank you - I am pleased with the red . . . Just trying to figure the new dynamics here. It has changed a lot!

02/23/2022 11:25:40 AM · #7

Originally posted by Tiberius:

I have looked at the collective entries . . . Sporadically there doesnâ��t seem to be a huge diff between part vs non-part . . . So then I wondered if it was the human element in the image as the central subject (not the gorgeous stairway (LevT) with the monk at the bottom) and noticed there arenâ��t a lot of Top 10 â��portraitâ�� images. Donâ��t know, just curious.

Fujifilm XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4 OIS

02/23/2022 12:14:36 PM · #8

I originally posted this late (for me) last night so I donâ��t know if my intent is coming across as I intended <<< wholly on me.

Yes, I am pleased with the result of my first two entries on my DPC2.0 experience. That said, I noticed my entries had a larger disparity between participants vs non-participants . . . I didnâ��t know if it was the subject matter (human) or ?? Other entries in general (not exclusively) seem to have a variance between .1 to .4

The last two (in voting), I entered images I normally would not, the scores reflect that, I knew the quality wasnâ��t there or â��on-topicâ�� for the contest and for that reason in hindsight I donâ��t think it is a good comparative tool. I think I am going to effort to enter a higher quality image without a human and that would be a better way to see if perhaps it was the human aspect that was perhaps the reason for voting it lower . . . Of course 2 is not a great sample pool so I will continue to post and update . . . I am a total dork about data and the why . . .

I remember 10+ years ago there being a discussion about whether some images were garnering high votes because the subject was gorgeous and there was a bump in voting because of the â��attractivenessâ�� of the subject . . .so in the Art challenge I purposefully chose an image without a face but my variance went from .7x to .82 (or something like that)

Again, just trying to figure out this new DP world. . .

JustinM

Fujifilm X-T30

02/23/2022 12:29:19 PM · #9

My Art entry was voted 0.7 higher by participants than non participants so anecdotally it doesn't seem like people are downvoting images they think will win just to increase their comparative score.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

02/23/2022 12:37:55 PM · #10

I was surprised to see your finish - I had you in my top . . . I gave you a 9 . . . . It is a stunning image! Makes me wonder if non-human images are received better (?) hmmmm again, I am here to challenge myself, learn a new camera body, and spark my creative process.

Originally posted by JustinM:

My Art entry was voted 0.7 higher by participants than non participants so anecdotally it doesn't seem like people are downvoting images they think will win just to increase their comparative score.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

02/23/2022 12:47:45 PM · #11

I've often heard that thought and I'm sure there are some who might behave that way, but I have also noticed a few challenges where the participant score for my entry was higher. In fact, my Art of '21 entry had an average .18 higher for participants than non-participants.

I always go into a challenge expecting a mid pack performance, so perhaps I don't get disappointed as much?

Message edited by author 2022-02-23 12:50:00.

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

02/23/2022 01:25:47 PM · #12

I never expect to finish well and I am not disappointed, as I was surprised by the difference of participants to non . .. just trying to find the â��whyâ�� . . . Perhaps there is none. Just realized I started with DPC 15 years ago - MASSIVE break - but shockingly, my cat Scooter is still with me . . . He is getting so old (not me though!) Seriously where does the time go!

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Message edited by author 2022-02-23 13:26:47.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

02/23/2022 01:27:23 PM · #13

Ubique. Someone who I greatly admire. When asking about one of my bird photos that I thought was the most amazing thing I had ever taken. But to him, it was like a million other bird photos. It just wasn't memorable or special to him.
3. The biggest problem is that a few people can make a huge difference in a score now that attendence is down so far. It's not because anyone is trying to submarine me, vote me down just to raise their own scores, etc. People haven't changed how they vote. There's just fewer people voting.

So even though there's a much larger dichotomy, it gives me more satisfaction looking at the numbers. Instead of everything evening out because of 100 voters -- I can see what photos are universally praised, ones that are really not appreciated, and it's another piece of the puzzle.

Please realize that this is the same place you left -- it's just that our differences are more noticeable now. It's not a negative -- it just is.

There is still so much to be gained here. I understand the frustration. But once you get used to that, you realize that there's still so much to be found here.

Message edited by author 2022-02-23 13:28:29.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

02/23/2022 01:52:28 PM · #14

I think I miscategorized (and titled) my rant as frustration . . . It isnâ��t as much frustration as wanting to understand. I absolutely agree that for many it is just a â��niceâ�� XYZ - by NO means do I think my images are great or worthy of any accolade at all. I was just surprised at the variance and why some have that (mine or anyoneâ��s) and otherâ��s donâ��t. I actually donâ��t think it is a quality of the image as much as having a human as the primary subject . . . But time will tell, and I will likely change my view on that too LOL.

ETA: I think you are right the few who may do this type of voting stands out more because of the volume of voting. So on that note, off to vote!

Originally posted by vawendy:

oops -- wrote this before updating to see all the responses. But leaving my whole message anyway. :)

Good to see you back!!!

I really do understand your frustration -- I've seen the same thing many, many times.

However -- a couple of things that I like to remember:

1. Remember some of the high quality photographers that play in this playground. What I consider to be an incredible photo, is probably just a very nice photo to some of the experts out there.
2. More importantly -- I remember Ubique. Someone who I greatly admire. When asking about one of my bird photos that I thought was the most amazing thing I had ever taken. But to him, it was like a million other bird photos. It just wasn't memorable or special to him.
3. The biggest problem is that a few people can make a huge difference in a score now that attendence is down so far. It's not because anyone is trying to submarine me, vote me down just to raise their own scores, etc. People haven't changed how they vote. There's just fewer people voting.

So even though there's a much larger dichotomy, it gives me more satisfaction looking at the numbers. Instead of everything evening out because of 100 voters -- I can see what photos are universally praised, ones that are really not appreciated, and it's another piece of the puzzle.

Please realize that this is the same place you left -- it's just that our differences are more noticeable now. It's not a negative -- it just is.

There is still so much to be gained here. I understand the frustration. But once you get used to that, you realize that there's still so much to be found here.

Message edited by author 2022-02-23 13:55:01.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

02/23/2022 02:41:44 PM · #15

You have a point that some folks aren't big into pictures of people they don't know, unless the subect is strikingly beautiful or presented in an unusual way. But that might not explain the differential between participants and non-particpants. In the case of high scoring pictures, I think there may be more of a variance because the really good photogs who vote and participate are more discerning. If you generally score below average, though, the difference is minimal, given that everyone pretty much agrees on the level of "blah" and "eh....". For example:

Avg (participants): 5.5610
Avg (non-participants): 5.5600

Avg (participants): 5.6667
Avg (non-participants): 5.5789

I suspect there's also a higher degree of "meets/does not meet challenge" voting by participants over non-particpants, since those playing in the challenge may have put more thought into how to meet it.

salmiakki

Sony Alpha a7R III

Sony Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA

02/23/2022 02:54:37 PM · #16

Be glad you only had a 0.8 difference. It's very small in comparison to some

This is from a challenge about 6 months ago. Now that is a significant difference. With the small number of voters & participants it's easy to have a big difference. It was a portrait

Avg (participants): 5.5263
Avg (non-participants): 7.2222

02/23/2022 03:22:31 PM · #17

I went and looked at the top 20 they were all about .3 or below . . . most being .2 or below. With a couple exceptions. I think my latest (in voting) off topic and 'blah' images will have a much more tight variation. Now, I am going to effort to shoot a very on topic and thoughtful image and see how that goes . . .

Originally posted by Melethia:

Message edited by author 2022-02-23 15:56:20.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

02/23/2022 03:23:25 PM · #18

I am sensing portraits aren't going over well, which will challenge me as I am a portrait person . . . going to have to give this thought. ETA: my whole reason for revisiting DP was to challenge myself so it is all good.

Originally posted by salmiakki:

Message edited by author 2022-02-23 15:24:11.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

02/23/2022 04:37:04 PM · #19

Do bear in mind that with relatively few votes being registered in most challenges, outlier votes have a HUGE effect, bot pro ad con. Add this to the fact that there can be a significant discrepancy between how MANY of the votes are NP vs P, and it gets even wonkier. For example, if only 4 of your votes were NP and you received 3 7's and a 3, that would be an average of 6: take out the 3-vote and the average is 7. See?

On a related front, bear in mind that outliers on both sides of the score will often relate to challenge relevance. That is to say, some voters may be paying NO attention to the challenge topic and give high scores to images that only peripherally relate to the topic, whilst others may be downvoting otherwise excellent images because they do NOT (in the voter's mind) really respond to the challenge.

It's all part of the game. Don't take it seriously :-) Back in the old days this all averaged out quite a bit, but with the smaller sampling of voters now, anything can happen.

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

02/23/2022 05:00:05 PM · #20

I agree I went back and viewed some older images circa 2011 and there was a large variation as well, but to your point, it did even out a bit better perhaps. Who knows. Oh well, it is what it is.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

02/23/2022 08:34:55 PM · #21

Itâ��s ok that it was miscategorized as frustration â�� it gives us an excuse to tell you everything we keep trying to tell ourselves , in hopes that we start believing it too. :)

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

02/23/2022 09:47:29 PM · #22

I didn't recall who you were so had to look at your profile page to see you had a name change. We both started here in 2007. I think I had about an 8 month pause once and then Wendy dragged me back.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

02/23/2022 10:15:01 PM · #23

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

I didn't recall who you were so had to look at your profile page to see you had a name change. We both started here in 2007. I think I had about an 8 month pause once and then Wendy dragged me back.

Sure - blame it all on me!! ;P