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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> New for Adobe Photoshop - DNG File Format
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 02/01/2005 05:17:46 AM · #1
Just downloaded the new Adobe Camera Raw 2.4 plug-in from Adobe that can read raw images that have been converted to a new standard file format called "digital negative" DNG. This format is designed as a standard that different camera manufacturers raw files can be converted to a common file format and still retain all or most of the raw info.

More info on the new Camera Raw plugin is here:
//www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html

More info on the Adobe DNG Converter 2.4 application is here
//www.adobe.com/products/dng/main.html

It looks like 2.4 was just added as a download yesterday January 31, 2005. Apparently DNG 2.3 was introduced in September of 2004.

Message edited by author 2005-02-01 05:25:10.
 02/01/2005 02:09:15 PM · #2
Personally I think DNG will get a lot more attention and useful when it's optional as a format right out of the camera. Otherwise who wants to convert one from one RAW to another all the time? People just won't go to the bother unless it becomes more seamless to their workflow IMO.

02/01/2005 02:52:31 PM · #3
colema19
Personally I think DNG will get a lot more attention and useful when it's optional as a format right out of the camera.

I agree about it's potential popularity. It looks like that is Adobe's goal is for the camera manufacturer's to accept this standard.

Also all the other image software programmers don't need to write separate code for every raw file from all the cameras. They most likely will support the new standard.

Users who have multiple cameras in there studio can benefit today. They can process all the image files in the same manner after the raw files are converted.
02/01/2005 04:25:21 PM · #4
Originally posted by fulgent:

Users who have multiple cameras in there studio can benefit today. They can process all the image files in the same manner after the raw files are converted.


Possibly...but I suspect that is more a hypothetical then a likely situation. If you are a studio shooter and have multiple cameras, it seems to me that you probably don't have mulitple different brand cameras. So it seems like the transfer to a common format isn't going to benefit so much because I would guess they are likely only processing one brand of camera RAW anyway. Course I could be way off there too. :)

02/02/2005 11:58:51 PM · #5
I bought Photoshop Elements 3.0 because it was a cheap way to start playing around with the Raw output of my Sony DSC-F828. I was curious if (a) Elements 3.0 could open DNG files and (b) if I could run the DNG Converter using Elements 3.0.

For (a), Elements 3.0 opens DNG files without a problem, no plugin required.

For (b), It turns out that the DNG Converter is a standalone executable (it doesn't need Photoshop to run). Although Adobe packages the Raw Camera plugin and DNG Converter in a single zip, they seem to be two separate products.

When you open up the DNG Converter, you select an input directory (which it scans for raw files) and an output directory. You can also specify formats for the output filename. It then converts them as a batch.

One interesting thing I noticed is that it seems to compress the raw files. A typical Sony DSC-F828 Raw file (SRF file) is about 17MB. The resulting DNG was about 9MB. Either DNG uses a much better method of compression, or it is stripping out some information that is in the SRF. (For comparison, the JPG produced by the camera of the same image was about 3.5MB.)

Interestingly, the DNG format allows you to include the original raw file INSIDE the DNG file if you want. (That way, you have access to the original raw file if you want, but you don't have to keep two separate files.) Not surprisingly, the file size if you do this roughly equals the sum of a DNG file and a raw file (for the file mentioned above, that would be about 26MB).

One other thing to note: Picasa handles raw files (at least the Sony SRF file), but it does not handle DNG files.

02/03/2005 02:12:05 AM · #6
I think this is a very good thing to have. The DNG specification is published with will make it easy for anyone to support it both creating DNG files and opening them.

Also keep in mind that the DNG format is likely to outlive many of the raw formats that are out there today. If you want to be able to read your raw files 20 years from now it might not be a bad idea to have them in this format.
02/03/2005 03:11:37 AM · #7
Canon have already said that they won't be changing to the DNG format. It's a shame, it'd be great to have all RAW files out of the camera the same no matter what camera you use.
 02/03/2005 03:20:34 AM · #8
Originally posted by Anjella:
Canon have already said that they won't be changing to the DNG format. It's a shame, it'd be great to have all RAW files out of the camera the same no matter what camera you use.

I fully agree, it would be great to have a common file format. Canon might change their mind if they feel they are loosing even a small part of the market by not supporting DNG.

Canon has been slow to do the right thing but eventually they seem to get there. For a long time their cameras would not save a jpeg at the same time as a raw, with the 20D they are finally doing that. Proprietary file formats tend to fail over time, if other camera manufactures all start to support DNG Canon will be force to as well.

Message edited by author 2005-02-03 03:21:09.
 02/03/2005 03:33:46 AM · #9
Originally posted by scottwilson:
Canon might change their mind if they feel they are loosing even a small part of the market by not supporting DNG.


I hope so. Does anyone know if any other camera manufacturers are considering the change to DNG?
 02/03/2005 10:48:32 AM · #10
Originally posted by scottwilson:

Also keep in mind that the DNG format is likely to outlive many of the raw formats that are out there today. If you want to be able to read your raw files 20 years from now it might not be a bad idea to have them in this format.


I think you're going a bit far with that assumption. Keep in mind that Adobe is a commercial company too, they aren't a standards organization. If they want to be sure that DNG will live that long they'd have to release it to the public domain, a move which would make manufacturers less hesitant to use it I'm sure.

I can see why Canon(or any other manufacturer) wouldn't wnat to give support to another vendors format, even if Adobe isn't a direct competitor in the market space. They probably don't want to have someone else determining the output format that they use without any input.
02/03/2005 10:58:33 AM · #11
Originally posted by colema19:
Originally posted by scottwilson:

Also keep in mind that the DNG format is likely to outlive many of the raw formats that are out there today. If you want to be able to read your raw files 20 years from now it might not be a bad idea to have them in this format.


I think you're going a bit far with that assumption. Keep in mind that Adobe is a commercial company too, they aren't a standards organization. If they want to be sure that DNG will live that long they'd have to release it to the public domain, a move which would make manufacturers less hesitant to use it I'm sure.

I can see why Canon(or any other manufacturer) wouldn't wnat to give support to another vendors format, even if Adobe isn't a direct competitor in the market space. They probably don't want to have someone else determining the output format that they use without any input.

DNG is going into the public domain, it is based on the tiff file format with extra tags and Adobe has said that they will turn it over to a standard committee. You can go to their web site and get the specifications for it now.
 02/03/2005 11:05:19 AM · #12
Originally posted by scottwilson:


Canon has been slow to do the right thing but eventually they seem to get there. For a long time their cameras would not save a jpeg at the same time as a raw, with the 20D they are finally doing that. Proprietary file formats tend to fail over time, if other camera manufactures all start to support DNG Canon will be force to as well.


I believe we've already had this discussion before, but there isn't actaully anything in DNG that ensures your files would be readable if for example Canon supported it.

Like TIFF, DNG defines a 'bag' that you can put stuff in. It doesn't fully define what the 'stuff' is, or what you should do with it.

It is a good step forward to have a common 'bag' (so everyone knows how to open it and rummage around inside) but it doesn't mean your digital files will be useable in 20 years time. You'll just know where the RAW data is in the file.

Also - all this is proposed by Adobe, and may or may not actually get some industry traction. If it goes nowhere, you could expect to see Adobe quietly forgetting to support it very well in a few years.
 02/03/2005 09:33:43 PM · #13
Originally posted by scottwilson:

DNG is going into the public domain, it is based on the tiff file format with extra tags and Adobe has said that they will turn it over to a standard committee. You can go to their web site and get the specifications for it now.


Well I read up at Adobe's site. This is exactly what they say:
Originally posted by Adobe:

Ultimately, it may make sense to turn over DNG to an appropriate standards body for further enhancement, so that its evolution can truly be a collaborative effort.


It doesn't say it's _going_ to, it says it _may_ make sense. I read market spin there. I suspect going in to the PD will depend on the adoption. If it becomes a key feature in the industry I have doubts that Adobe will release control of it. If on the other hand, acceptance is sluggish, and they have nothing to lose, then they will release it. I'm probably a little cynical, but that's how computer industry companies like to work in my experience.

I don't know what happened up there in the word 'collaborative', the parser seems to have freaked on my paste.

Message edited by author 2005-02-03 21:35:22.
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