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02/22/2005 08:51:03 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by jmritz:
Next theyĆ¢ll be telling us that sex is one of the causes. ;/ |
Sex leading to procreation is the primary cause ... we proably would be having this discussion if the world population hadn't increased from about one billion to over six billion in the past century or so.
And ... cow farts, like yours, release methane into the attmosphere; methane is a greenhouse gas, which allows visible light (sunlight) to pass through, but reflects back infra-red light (heat) and therefor performs exactly the same function as a blanket. The amount of bovine flatulence has increased markedly with the human population, especially in countries such as the USA, which rely on a high proportion of animal protein in the diet.
The excess carbon doesn't just come from cow butts though -- in order to raise a pound of cow, you also have to plant, irrigate, and harvest 10 pounds of grain and other vegetable matter to feed the cow. This requires the use of gas and deisel engines to plow the fields, run the irrigation pumps, and harvest and ship the grain. |
The biggest and most dangerous environmental problem we have IS overpopulation. Solve it and the other environmental problems will be much easier to manage with some of them possibly solving themselves. Of course, trying to address the current overpopulation problem is unfortunatly very politically-incorrect. Just try suggesting that groups of people such as Hindus, Muslims, Africans, Mexicans, etc. need to rein in their dangerously high birth rates and in no time at all you will be blasted for being racist, facist, bigoted, intolerant of others, etc.
Message edited by author 2005-02-22 20:52:09. |
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02/22/2005 09:13:51 PM · #27 |
I'm abstaining from sharring my comments on that one...but I will say I agree.
The world is over-populated, and the reason I'm not sharring my view is because there is no real way to come out and say it without affending someone in one way or another.
Let's just say that if 1 million people had to be burned to a crisp to make it so the world will last (and it was the only way) -- I would gladly volunteer myself in return for some sort of lasting monitary compensation for my future wife.
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02/22/2005 09:22:57 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
The biggest and most dangerous environmental problem we have IS overpopulation. Solve it and the other environmental problems will be much easier to manage with some of them possibly solving themselves. Of course, trying to address the current overpopulation problem is unfortunatly very politically-incorrect. Just try suggesting that groups of people such as Hindus, Muslims, Africans, Mexicans, etc. need to rein in their dangerously high birth rates and in no time at all you will be blasted for being racist, facist, bigoted, intolerant of others, etc. |
Just check your facts on birthrates before tossing around negative information about people. For example, Mexico ranks 99th out of some 216 on that list, and closer to the bottom than the top in terms of actual rates.
Perhaps it would also be instructive to compare the those results with these rankings of life expectancy at birth or this list of infant mortality rates.
We USAans really believe in equal opportunity for everyone, don't we : (
Message edited by author 2005-02-22 21:23:54. |
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02/22/2005 09:25:18 PM · #29 |
Why is it again that the USA refuses to fund UN family planning programs?
Message edited by author 2005-02-22 21:25:54. |
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02/22/2005 09:29:17 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
We USAans really believe in equal opportunity for everyone, don't we : ( |
Yes, but they gotta earn their own way. Shouldn't be any socialism here at all. |
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02/22/2005 09:42:23 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frychikn:
The biggest and most dangerous environmental problem we have IS overpopulation. Solve it and the other environmental problems will be much easier to manage with some of them possibly solving themselves. Of course, trying to address the current overpopulation problem is unfortunatly very politically-incorrect. Just try suggesting that groups of people such as Hindus, Muslims, Africans, Mexicans, etc. need to rein in their dangerously high birth rates and in no time at all you will be blasted for being racist, facist, bigoted, intolerant of others, etc. |
Just check your facts on birthrates before tossing around negative information about people. For example, Mexico ranks 99th out of some 216 on that list, and closer to the bottom than the top in terms of actual rates.
Perhaps it would also be instructive to compare the those results with these rankings of life expectancy at birth or this list of infant mortality rates.
We USAans really believe in equal opportunity for everyone, don't we : ( |
Thank you for reinforcing my point. I knew somebody would come through and blast me for my post. By the way, would you be so kind as to point out the "negative information" I have supposedly "tossed around" about people. |
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02/22/2005 10:04:10 PM · #32 |
Just an opinion, but he may have been alluding to your comments about Mexicans and overpopulation... he does make a direct reference to it.
Ray |
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02/22/2005 10:08:00 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Just an opinion, but he may have been alluding to your comments about Mexicans and overpopulation... he does make a direct reference to it.
Ray |
Possibly so, but nothing negative there. |
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02/22/2005 10:16:43 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why is it again that the USA refuses to fund UN family planning programs? |
My guess is that they dont want to throw their money down a black hole. That money would be sucked up and and never seen again going into the the pockets of the corrupt UN.
They may give other reasons....but thats my guess.
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02/22/2005 10:19:12 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Riggs:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why is it again that the USA refuses to fund UN family planning programs? |
My guess is that they dont want to throw their money down a black hole. That money would be sucked up and and never seen again going into the the pockets of the corrupt UN.
They may give other reasons....but thats my guess. |
Actually, that might be a valid reason ... what they usually cite is a religious or moral tenet with no basis in (our) law ... |
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02/22/2005 10:19:57 PM · #36 |
I don't think the UN is more or less corrupt than any other governing body on earth. They all are. It's in the nature of power, of politics, of being collective-human.
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02/22/2005 10:24:14 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
We USAans really believe in equal opportunity for everyone, don't we : ( |
Yes, but they gotta earn their own way. Shouldn't be any socialism here at all. |
Then what, pray tell, is the purpose of a "society?"
It seems to me that the whole point of rising above the wolfpack is the basic idea that we humans group together for our overall mutual benefit, with some sacrificing what they can spare to aid those in need.
Now, it's only a question of defining how much certain people can "spare," with billionaires apparently able to spare the least ... : ( |
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02/22/2005 10:32:19 PM · #38 |
First, I would like to present and urge everyone who has any interest into Earth and Human reality and your childrens/grandchildrens future, to read this book: The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight which I consider one of the best books on our environmental situation and overal sliver of history we currently live in, thats in peril, and how we got here.
Secondly, I present a warning from over 1,700 scientists and most living Nobel Prize winners titled "Warning To Humanity" that was written in 1992.
World Scientists' Warning To Humanity
Some 1,700 of the world's leading scientists, including the majority of Nobel laureates in the sciences, issued this appeal in November 1992.
The Warning was written and spearheaded by UCS Chair Henry Kendall.
Human beings and the natural world are on a collision course. Human activities inflict harsh and often irreversible damage on the environment and on critical resources. If not checked, many of our current practices put at serious risk the future that we wish for human society and the plant and animal kingdoms, and may so alter the living world that it will be unable to sustain life in the manner that we know. Fundamental changes are urgent if we are to avoid the collision our present course will bring about.
The Environment
The environment is suffering critical stress:
The Atmosphere
Stratospheric ozone depletion threatens us with enhanced ultraviolet radiation at the earth's surface, which can be damaging or lethal to many life forms. Air pollution near ground level, and acid precipitation, are already causing widespread injury to humans, forests and crops.
Water Resources
Heedless exploitation of depletable ground water supplies endangers food production and other essential human systems. Heavy demands on the world's surface waters have resulted in serious shortages in some 80 countries, containing 40% of the world's population. Pollution of rivers, lakes and ground water further limits the supply.
Oceans
Destructive pressure on the oceans is severe, particularly in the coastal regions which produce most of the world's food fish. The total marine catch is now at or above the estimated maximum sustainable yield. Some fisheries have already shown signs of collapse. Rivers carrying heavy burdens of eroded soil into the seas also carry industrial, municipal, agricultural, and livestock waste -- some of it toxic.
Soil
Loss of soil productivity, which is causing extensive Land abandonment, is a widespread byproduct of current practices in agriculture and animal husbandry. Since 1945, 11% of the earth's vegetated surface has been degraded -- an area larger than India and China combined -- and per capita food production in many parts of the world is decreasing.
Forests
Tropical rain forests, as well as tropical and temperate dry forests, are being destroyed rapidly. At present rates, some critical forest types will be gone in a few years and most of the tropical rain forest will be gone before the end of the next century. With them will go large numbers of plant and animal species.
Living Species
The irreversible loss of species, which by 2100 may reach one third of all species now living, is especially serious. We are losing the potential they hold for providing medicinal and other benefits, and the contribution that genetic diversity of life forms gives to the robustness of the world's biological systems and to the astonishing beauty of the earth itself.
Much of this damage is irreversible on a scale of centuries or permanent. Other processes appear to pose additional threats. Increasing levels of gases in the atmosphere from human activities, including carbon dioxide released from fossil fuel burning and from deforestation, may alter climate on a global scale. Predictions of global warming are still uncertain -- with projected effects ranging from tolerable to very severe -- but the potential risks are very great.
Our massive tampering with the world's interdependent web of life -- coupled with the environmental damage inflicted by deforestation, species loss, and climate change -- could trigger widespread adverse effects, including unpredictable collapses of critical biological systems whose interactions and dynamics we only imperfectly understand.
Uncertainty over the extent of these effects cannot excuse complacency or delay in facing the threat.
Population
The earth is finite. Its ability to absorb wastes and destructive effluent is finite. Its ability to provide food and energy is finite. Its ability to provide for growing numbers of people is finite. And we are fast approaching many of the earth's limits. Current economic practices which damage the environment, in both developed and underdeveloped nations, cannot be continued without the risk that vital global systems will be damaged beyond repair.
Pressures resulting from unrestrained population growth put demands on the natural world that can overwhelm any efforts to achieve a sustainable future. If we are to halt the destruction of our environment, we must accept limits to that growth. A World Bank estimate indicates that world population will not stabilize at less than 12.4 billion, while the United Nations concludes that the eventual total could reach 14 billion, a near tripling of today's 5.4 billion. But, even at this moment, one person in five lives in absolute poverty without enough to eat, and one in ten suffers serious malnutrition.
No more than one or a few decades remain before the chance to avert the threats we now confront will be lost and the prospects for humanity immeasurably diminished.
Warning
*We the undersigned, senior members of the world's scientific community, hereby warn all humanity of what lies ahead. A great change in our stewardship of the earth and the life on it, is required, if vast human misery is to be avoided and our global home on this planet is not to be irretrievably mutilated.*
What We Must Do
Five inextricably linked areas must be addressed simultaneously:
We must bring environmentally damaging activities under control to restore and protect the integrity of the earth's systems we depend on.
We must, for example, move away from fossil fuels to more benign, inexhaustible energy sources to cut greenhouse gas emissions and the pollution of our air and water. Priority must be given to the development of energy sources matched to third world needs -- small scale and relatively easy to implement. We must halt deforestation, injury to and loss of agricultural land, and the loss of terrestrial and marine plant and animal species.
We must manage resources crucial to human welfare more effectively. We must give high priority to efficient use of energy, water, and other materials, including expansion of conservation and recycling.
We must stabilize population. This will be possible only if all nations recognize that it requires improved social and economic conditions, and the adoption of effective, voluntary family planning.
We must reduce and eventually eliminate poverty.
We must ensure sexual equality, and guarantee women control over their own reproductive decisions.
The developed nations are the largest polluters in the world today. They must greatly reduce their over-consumption, if we are to reduce pressures on resources and the global environment. The developed nations have the obligation to provide aid and support to developing nations, because only the developed nations have the financial resources and the technical skills for these tasks.
Acting on this recognition is not altruism, but enlightened self-interest: whether industrialized or not, we all have but one lifeboat.
No nation can escape from injury when global biological systems are damaged. No nation can escape from conflicts over increasingly scarce resources. In addition, environmental and economic instabilities will cause mass migrations with incalculable consequences for developed and undeveloped nations alike.
Developing nations must realize that environmental damage is one of the gravest threats they face, and that attempts to blunt it will be overwhelmed if their populations go unchecked. The greatest peril is to become trapped in spirals of environmental decline, poverty, and unrest, leading to social, economic and environmental collapse.
Success in this global endeavor will require a great reduction in violence and war. Resources now devoted to the preparation and conduct of war -- amounting to over $1 trillion annually -- will be badly needed in the new tasks and should be diverted to the new challenges.
A new ethic is required -- a new attitude towards discharging our responsibility for caring for ourselves and for the earth. We must recognize the earth's limited capacity to provide for us. We must recognize its fragility. We must no longer allow it to be ravaged. This ethic must motivate a great movement, convince reluctant leaders and reluctant governments and reluctant peoples themselves to effect the needed changes.
The scientists issuing this warning hope that our message will reach and affect people everywhere. We need the help of many.
We require the help of the world community of scientists -- natural, social, economic, political;
We require the help of the world's business and industrial leaders;
We require the help of the worlds religious leaders; and
We require the help of the world's peoples.
We call on all to join us in this task.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROMINENT INDIVIDUALS AMONG MORE THAN 1,500 SIGNATORIES
Anatole Abragam, Physicist; Fmr. Member, Pontifical Academy of Sciences; France
Carlos Aguirre President, Academy of Sciences, Bolivia
Walter Alvarez Geologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Viqar Uddin Ammad, Chemist, Pakistani & Third World Academies, Pakistan
Claude Allegre, Geophysicist, Crafoord Prize, France
Michael Alpers Epidemiologist, Inst. of Med. Research, Papua New Guinea
Anne Anastasi, Psychologist, National Medal of Science, USA
Philip Anderson, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Christian Anfinsen, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; USA
How Ghee Ang, Chemist, Third World Academy, Singapore
Werner Arber, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Switzerland
Mary Ellen Avery, Pediatrician, National Medal of Science, USA
Julius Axelrod, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Michael Atiyah, Mathematician; President, Royal Society; Great Britain
Howard Bachrach, Biochemist, National Medal of Science, USA
John Backus, Computer Scientist, National Medal of Science, USA
Achmad Baiquni, Physicist, Indonesian & Third World Academies, Indonesia
David Baltimore, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
H. A. Barker, Biochemist, National Medal of Science, USA
Francisco J. Barrantes, Biophysicist, Third World Academy, Argentina
David Bates, Physicist, Royal Irish Academy, Ireland
Alan Battersby, Chemist, Wolf Prize in Chemistry, Great Britain
Baruj Benacerraf, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Georg Bednorz, Nobel laureate, Physics; Switzerland
Germot Bergold, Inst. Venezolano de Investigaciones Cientificas, Venezuela
Sune Bergstrom, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Sweden
Daniel Bes, Physicist, Argentinean & Third World Academies, Argentina
Hans Bethe, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Arthur Birch Chemist, Australian Academy of Science, Australia
Michael Bishop, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Konrad Bloch, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Nicholaas Bloembergen, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
David Mervyn Blow, Wolf Prize in Chemistry, Great Britain
Baruch Blumberg, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Bert Bolin, Meteorologist, Tyler Prize, Sweden
Norman Borlaug, Agricultural Scientist, Nobel laureate, Peace; USA & Mexico
Frederick Bormann, Forest Ecologist; Past President, Ecological Soc. of Amer.; USA
Raoul Bott, Mathematician, National Medal of Science, USA
Ronald Breslow, Chemist, National Medal of Science
Ricardo Bressani, Inst. of Nutrition, Guatemalan & Third World Academies, Guatemala
Hermann Bruck, Astronomer, Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Great Britain
Gerardo Budowski, Natural Resources, Univ. Para La Paz, Costa Rica
E. Margaret Burbidge, Astronomer, National Medal of Science, USA
Robert Burris, Biochemist, Wolf Prize in Agriculture, USA
Glenn Burton, Geneticist, National Medal of Science, USA
Adolph Butenandt, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Fmr. President, Max Planck Inst.; Germany
Sergio Cabrera, Biologist, Univ. de Chile, Chile
Paulo C. Campos, Medical scientist, Philippine & Third World Academies, Philippines
Ennio Candotti, Physicist; President, Brazilian Soc. Adv. of Science; Brazil
Henri Cartan, Wolf Prize in Mathematics, France
Carlos Chagas, Biologist; Univ. de Rio de Janeiro; Fmr. President, Pontifical Academy of Sciences; Brazil
Sivaramakrishna Chandrasekhar, Center for Liquid Crystal Research, India
Georges Charpak, Nobel laureate, Physics; France
Joseph Chatt, Wolf Prize in Chemistry, Great Britain
Shiing-Shen Chern, Wolf Prize in Mathematics, China & USA
Christopher Chetsanga, Biochemist, Affican & Third World Academies, Zimbabwe
Morris Cohen, Engineering, National Medal of Science, USA
Stanley Cohen, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Stanley N. Cohen, Geneticist, Wolf Prize in Medicine, USA
Mildred Cohn, Biochemist, National Medal of Science, USA
E. J. Corey, Nobel laureate, Chemistry, USA
John Cornforth, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Great Britain
Hector Croxatto, Physiologist, Pontifical & Third World Academies, Chile
Paul Crutzen, Chemist, Tyler Prize, Germany
Partha Dasgupta, Economist, Royal Society, Great Britain
Jean Dausset, Nobel laureate, Medicine; France
Ogulande Robert Davidson, Univ. Res. & Dev. Serv., African Acad., Sierra Leone
Margaret Davis, Ecologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Luis D'Croz, Limnologist, Univ. de Panama, Panama
Gerard Debreu, Nobel laureate, Economics; USA
Pierre-Gilles de Gennes, Nobel laureate, Physics; France
Johann Deisenhofer, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Germany & USA
Frederica de Laguna, Anthropologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Paul-Yves Denis, Geographer, Academy of Sciences, Canada
Pierre Deligne, Mathematician, Crafoord Prize, France
Frank Dixon, Pathologist, Lasker Award, USA
Johanna Dobereiner, Biologist, First Sec., Brazilian Academy of Sci.; Pontifical & Third World Academies, Brazil
Joseph Doob, Mathematician, National Medal of Science, USA
Renato Dulbecco, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Heneri Dzinotyiweyi, Mathematician, African & Third World Academies, Zimbabwe
Manfred Eigen, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Germany
Samuel Eilenberg, Wolf Prize in Mathematics, USA
Mahdi Elmandjra, Economist; Vice President, African Academy of Sciences; Morocco
Paul Ehrlich, Biologist, Crafoord Prize, USA
Thomas Eisner, Biologist, Tyler Prize, USA
Mohammed T. El-Ashry, Environmental scientist, Third World Academy, Egypt & USA
Gertrude Elion, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Aina Elvius, Astronomer, Royal Academy of Sciences, Sweden
K. O. Emery, Oceanographer, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Paul Erdos, Wolf Prize in Mathematics, Hungary
Richard Ernst, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Switzerland
Vittorio Ersparmer, Pharmacologist, Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy
Sandra Faber, Astronomer, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Nina Federoff, Embryologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Herman Feshbach, Physicist, National Medal of Science, USA
Inga Fischer-Hjalmars, Biologist, Royal Academy of Sciences, Sweden
Michael Ellis Fisher, Physicist, Wolf Prize in Physics, Great Britain & USA
Val Fitch, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Daflinn Follesdal, President, Norwegian Academy of Science; Norway
William Fowler, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Otto Frankel, Geneticist, Australian Academy of Sciences, Australia
Herbert Friedman, Wolf Prize in Physics, USA
Jerome Friedman, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Konstantin V. Frolov Engineer; Vice President, Russian Academy of Sciences; Russia
Kenichi Fukui, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Japan
Madhav Gadgil, Ecologist, National Science Academy, India
Mary Gaillard, Physicist, National Academy of Sciences. USA
Carleton Gajdusek, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Robert Gallo, Research Scientist, Lasker Award, USA
Rodrigo Gamez ,Instituto Nacional de Biodiversidad, Costa Rica
Antonio Garcia-Bellido, Biologist, Univ. Auto. Madrid, Royal Society, Spain
Leopoldo Garcia-Collin, Physicist, Latin American & Third World Academies, Mexico
Percy Garnham, Royal Society & Pontifical Academy, Great Britain
Richard Garwin, Physicist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Murray Gell-Mann, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Georgii Georgiev, Biologist, Lenin Prize, Russia
Humam Bishara Ghassib, Physicist, Third World Academy, Jordan
Ricardo Giacconi, Astronomer, Wolf Prize in Physics, USA
Eleanor J. Gibson, Psychologist, National Medal of Science, USA
Marvin Goldberger, Physicist; Fmr. President, Calif. Inst. of Tech., USA
Maurice Goldhaber, Wolf Prize in Physics, USA
Donald Glaser, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Sheldon Glashow, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
James Gowans, Wolf Prize in Medicine, France
Roger Green, Anthropologist, Royal Society, New Zealand
Peter Greenwood, Ichthyologist, Royal Society, Great Britain
Edward Goldberg, Chemist, Tyler Prize, USA
Coluthur Gopolan, Nutrition Foundation of India, Indian & Third World Academies, India
Stephen Jay Gould, Paleontologist, Author, Harvard Univ., USA
Roger Guillemin, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Herbert Gutowsky, Wolf Prize in Chemistry, USA
Erwin Hahn, Wolf Prize in Physics, USA
Gonzalo Halffter, Ecologist, Inst. Pol. Nac. ,Mexico
Kerstin Hall, Endocrinologist, Royal Academy of Sciences, Sweden
Mohammed Ahmed Hamdan, Mathematician, Third World, Academy, Jordan
Adnan Hamoui, Mathematician, Third World, Academy, Kuwait
A. M. Harun-ar Rashid, Physicist; Sec., Bangladesh, Academy of Sci., Bangladesh
Mohammed H. A. Hassan, Physicist; Exec. Sec., Third World Academy of Sciences; Sudan & Italy
Ahmed Hassanli, Chemist, African Academy of Sciences, Tanzania & Kenya
Herbert Hauptman, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; USA
Stephen Hawking, Mathematician, Wolf Prize in Physics, Great Britain
Elizabeth Hay, Biologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Dudley Herschbach, Nobel laureate, Chemistry, USA
Gerhard Herzberg, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Canada
Antony Hewish, Nobel laureate, Physics; Great Britain
George Hitchings, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Great Britain
Roald Hoffman, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; USA
Robert Holley, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Nick Holonyak, Electrical Engineer, National Medal of Science, USA
Lars Hormander, Wolf Prize in Mathematics, Sweden
Dorothy Horstmann, Epidemiologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
John Houghton, Meteorologist; Chairman, Science Working Group, IPCC; Great Britain
Sarah Hrdy, Anthropologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Kenneth Hsu, Geologist, Third World Academy, China & Switzerland
Kun Huang, Physicist, Chinese Academy of Sciences, China
Hiroshi Inose, Electrical Engineer; Vice President, Engineering Academy; Japan
Turner T. Isoun, Pathologist, African Academy of Sciences,
Nigeria Francois Jacob, Nobel laureate, Medicine; France
Carl-Olof Jacobson Zoologist; Sec-Gen., Royal Academy of Sciences; Sweden
Dorothea Jameson, Psychologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Daniel Janzen, Biologist, Crafoord Prize, USA
Cecilia Jarlskog, Physicist, Royal Academy of Sciences, Sweden
Louise Johnson, Biophysicist, Royal Society, Great Britain
Harold Johnston, Chemist, Tyler Prize, USA
Victor A. Kabanov, Chemist, Lenin Prize in Science, Russia
Jerome Karle, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Robert Kates, Geographer, National Medal of Science, USA
Frederick I. B. Kayanja, Vice-Chnclr., Mbarara Univ., Third World Academy, Uganda
Joseph Keller, Mathematician, National Medal of Science, USA
Henry Kendall, Nobel laureate, Physics; Chairman, Union of Concerned Scientists; USA
John Kendrew, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Great Britain
Elisabeth Kessler, Royal Academy of Sciences, Sweden
Maung-U Khin, Pediatrician, Third World Academy, Myamnar & USA
Gurdev Khush, Agronomist, International Rice Institute, Indian Natl. Sci. Academy, India & Philippines
Susan Kieffer, Geologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Klaus von Klitzing, Nobel laureate, Physics; Germany
Aaron Klug, Nobel laureate, Chemistry, Great Britain
E. F. Knipling, Agricultural Researcher, National Medal of Science, USA
Walter Kohn, Physicist, National Medal of Science, USA
Janos Kornai, Economist, Hungarian Academy of Science, Hungary
Aderemi Kuku, Mathematician, African & Third World Acads., Nigeria
Ikuo Kushiro, Geologist, Japan Academy, Japan
Devendra Lal, Geophysicist, National Science Academy, India
Gerardo Lamas-Muller, Biologist, Museo de Historia Natural, Peru
Torvard Laurent, Physiological chemist; President, Royal Academy of Sciences; Sweden
Leon Lederman, Nobel laureate, Physics; Chr., Amer. Assn. Adv. Sci.; USA
Sang Soo Lee, Physicist, Korean & Third World Academies, Rep. of Korea
Yuan T. Lee, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; USA
Susan Leeman PharmacologistX National Academy of Sciences, USA
Jean Marie Lehn, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; France
Wassily Leontief, Nobel laureate, Economics; USA
Luna Leopold, Geologist, National Medal of Science, USA
Louis Leprince-Ringuet, Physicist, French & Pontifical Academies, France
Vladilen Letokhov, Physicist, Lenin Prize in Science, Russia
Rita Levi-Montalcini, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA & Italy
Li Chang-lin, Environmental Sciences, Fudan University, China
Shan Tao Liao, Mathematician, Chinese & Third World Academies, China
William Lipscomb, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Jane Lubchenco, Zoologist; President-Elect, Ecological Soc. of Amer.; USA
Christopher Magazda, Limnologist, African Academy of Sciences, Zimbabwe
Lydia Phindile Makhubu, Chemist, Third World & African Academies, Swaziland
Khursheed Ahmad Malik, Microbiologist, Pakistan & Third World Academies, Pakistan & Germany
Lynn Margulis, Biologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Paul Marks, Oncologist, National Medal of Science, USA
George Martine, Inst. for Study of Society, Population, & Nature; Brazil
Frederico Mayor, Biochemist; Dir. Gen., UNESCO, Spain & France Ernst Mayr, Zoologist, National Medal of Science, USA
Maclyn McCarty, Wolf Prize in Medicine, USA
James McConnell, Physicist, Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Ireland
Digby McLaren, Past President, Royal Society of Canada; Canada
James Meade, Nobel laureate, Economics; Great Britain
Jerrold Meinwald, Chemistry, Tyler Prize, USA
M. G. K Menon, Physicist; President, International Council of Scientific Unions; India
Gennady Mesiatz, Physicist; Vice President, Russian Academy of Sciences; Russia
Jan Michalski, Biologist, Polish Academy of Science, Poland
Hartmut Michel, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Germany
Brenda Milner, Neurologist, Academy of Sciences, Canada
Cesar Milstein, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Argentina & Great Britain
Franco Modigliani, Nobel laureate, Economics; USA
Andrei Monin, Oceanologist, State Prize, Russia
Marcos Moshinsky, Physicist, Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Mexico
Nevill Mott, Nobel laureate, Physics; Great Britain
Teruaki Mukaiyama, Chemist, Japan Academy, Japan
Walter Munk, Geophysicist, National Medal of Science, USA
Anne Murray, Ethnographer, Royal Academy of Sciences, Sweden
Joseph Murray, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Noreen Murray, Biologist, Royal Society, Great Britain
Lawrence Mysak, Meteorologist; Vice President, Academy of Science, Royal Society of Canada; Canada
Jayant Vishnu Narlikar, Astrophysicist, Indian & Third World Academies, India
Anwar Nasim, Biologist, Third World Academy, Saudi Arabia
Kim Nasmyth, Biologist, Royal Society, Great Britain & Austria
James Neel, Geneticist, National Medal of Science, USA
Louis Neel, Nobel laureate, Physics; France
Yuval Ne'eman, Physicist, Natl. Acad. of Sci. & Humanities, Israel
Oleg M. Nefedov, Chemist; Vice President, Russian Academy of Sciences; Russia
Erwin Neher, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Germany
Marshall Nirenberg, Biochemist; Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Yasutomi Nishizuka, Biochemist, Lasker Award, Japan
John S. Nkoma, Physicist, Third World Academy, Botswana
Paul Nchoji Nkvvi, Anthropologist, African Academy, Cameroon
Howard Odum, Ecologist, Crafoord Prize, USA
Bede Nwoye Okigbo, Agricultural Scientist; Dir., U.N. Unv. Pgm. Natrl. Res. in Afr.; Nigeria & Kenya
Ayub Khan Ommaya, Neurobiologist, Third World Academy, Pakistan & USA
Cyril Agodi Onwumechili, Physicist, Fmr. Pres., Nigerian Acad. of Sciences, Nigeria & Great Britain
Mary Jane Osborn, Microbiologist, National Academy of Scientists, USA
Yuri Ossipyan, Physicist; Vice President, Russian Academy of Sciences; Russia
Autzr Singh Paintal, Physiologist, Fmr. President, Indian National Science Academy, India
George Pake, Physicist, National Medal of Science, USA
George Palade, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Mary Lou Pardue, Biologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Linus Pauling, Nobel laureate, Chemistry & Pence, USA
Barbara Pearse, Molecular Biologist, Royal Society, Great Britain
Muhammed Abed Peerally, Biologist, Third World Academy, Mauritius
Manuel Peimbert, Astronomer, Univ. Nac. Aut. de Mexico, Mexico
Roger Penrose, Mathematician, Wolf Prize in Physics, Great Britain
John Philip, Agricultural Science, Australian Academy of Science, Australia
Lilian Pickford, Physiologist, Royal Society, Great Britain
John R. Pierce, Electrical Engineer, National Medal of Science, USA
John Polanyi, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Canada
George Porter, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Great Britain
Ilya Prigogine, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Belgium
Giampietro Puppi, Physicist, Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Italy
Edward Purcell, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Atta ur-Rahman, Chemist, Pakistani & Third World Academies, Pakistan
G. N. Ramachandran, Mathematician, Inst. of Science, India
Tiruppattur Ramakrishnan, Physicist, Indian & Third World Academies, India
Chintamani Rao, Inst. of Science, Indian and Pontifical Academies, India
Eduardo Rapoport, Ecologist, Third World Academy, Argentina
Marianne Rasmuson, Geneticist, Royal Academy of Sciences, Sweden
Peter Raven, Director, Missouri Botanical Garden; National Academy of Sciences, USA
Martin Rees, Astronomer, Royal Society & Pontifical Academy, Great Britain
Gerardo Reichel-Dolmatoff, Anthropologist, Columbian & Third World Academies, Columbia
Tadeus Reichstein, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Switzerland
Frederick Reines, Physicist, National Medal of Science, USA
Alexander Rich, Biologist, National & Pontifical Academies, USA
Burton Richter, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Ralph Riley, Wolf Prize in Agriculture, Great Britain
Claude Rimington, Inst. for Cancer Research, Norwegian Academy of Science, Norway
Gustavo Rivas Mijares, Engineer; Fmr. President, Academy of Sciences, Venezuela
Frederick Robbins, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Wendell Roelofs, Entomologist, National Medal of Science, USA
Betty Roots, Zoologist, Academy of Sciences, Canada
Miriam Rothschild, Biologist, Royal Society, Great Britain
Sherwood Rowland, Chemist; President, American Association for the Advancement of Science; USA
Janet Rowley, Physician, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Carlo Rubbia, Nobel laureate, Physics, Italy & Switzerland
Vera Rubin, Physicist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Yuri Rudenko, Energy Research Inst., State Prize laureate, Russia
Elizabeth Russell, Jackson Laboratory, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Albert Sabin, Virologist, National Medal of Science, USA
Carl Sagan, Astrophysicist & Author, USA
Roald Sagdeev, Physicist, Russian & Pontifical Academies, Russia & USA
Ruth Sager, Geneticist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Farrokh Saidi, Surgeon, Third World Academy, Iran
Abdus Salam, Nobel laureate, Physics; President, Third World Academy of Sciences, Pakistan & Italy
Frederick Sanger, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Great Britain
Jose Sarukhan, Biologist, Third World Academy, Mexico
Berta Scharrer,Neuroscientist, National Medal of Science, USA
Richard Schultes, Botanist, Tyler Prize, USA
Melvin Schwartz, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Julian Schwinger, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Glenn Seaborg, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
Michael Sela, Weizmann Inst., Pontifical Academy of Science, Israel
Arne Semb-Johansson, Entomologist, Norwegian Academy of Science, Norway
Salimuzzaman Siddiqui, Chemist, Pontifical & Third World Academies, Pakistan
Kai Siegbahn, Nobel laureate, Physics; Sweden
Thomas Silou, Biochemist, African Academy of Sciences, Congo
Herbert Simon, Nobel laureate, Economics; USA
Alexej Sitenko, Physicist, Ukrainian Academy of Sciences, Ukraine
Jens Skou, Biophysicist, Royal Academy of Sciences, Denmark
Charles Slack, Agricultural Science, Royal Society, New Zealand
George Snell, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Roger Sperry, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Alexander Spirin, Biologistn Lenin Prize, Russia
Earl Stadtman, Biochemist, National Medal of Science, USA
Thressa Stadtman, Biochemist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Ledyard Stebbins, Geneticist, National Medal of Science, USA
Jack Steinberger, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA & Switzerland
Janos Szentgothai, Fmr. President, Hungarian Academy of Sciences; Hungary
Tan Jia-zhen, Geneticist, Shanghai Univ., China
Andrezej Tarkowski, Embryologist, Polish [text missing]
Valentine Telegdi, Wolf Prize in Physics, Switzerland
Kirthi Tennakone, Physicist, Third World Academy, Sri Lanka
Walter Thirring, Physicist, Austrian & Pontifical Academies, Austria
Donnall Thomas, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Jan Tinbergen, Nobel laureate, Economics; Netherlands
Samuel C. C. Ting, Nobel laureate, Physics; USA
James Tobin, Nobel laureate, Economics; USA
Alexander Todd, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Great Britain
Susumu Tonegawa, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Japan & USA
Cheng Kui Tseng, Oceanologist, Chinese & Third World Academies, China
Hans Tuppy, Biochemist, Austrian & Pontifical Academies, Austria
James Van Allen, Physicist, Crafoord Prize, USA
Simon van der Meer, Nobel laureate, Physics; Netherlands & Switzerland
John Vane, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Great Britain
Harold Varmus, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Martha Vaughan, Biochemist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
George Wald, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Henrik Wallgren, Zoologist, Society of Science & Letters, Finland
E. T. S. Walton, Nobel laureate, Physics, Ireland
Prawase Wasi, Hematologist, Third World Academy, Thailand
Gerald Wasserburg, Geophysicist, Crafoord Prize, USA
James Watson, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Victor Weisskopf, Wolf Prize in Physics, USA
Thomas Weller, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Diter von Wettstein, Physiologist, Royal Academy of Sciences, Denmark
Fred Whipple, Astronomer, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Gilbert White, Geographer, Tyler Prize, USA
Torsten Wiesel, Nobel laureate, Medicine; USA
Jerome Wiesner, Physicist, Fmr. President, Mass. Inst. of Tech., USA
Maurice Wilkins, Nobel laureate, Medicine; Great Britain
Geoffrey Wilkinson, Nobel laureate, Chemistry; Great Britain
Richard Willems, Geneticist, Estonian Biocentre, Estonia
Edward O. Wilson, Biologist, Crafoord Prize, USA
Lawrence A. Wilson, Agricultural Science, Third World Academy, Trinidad
Evelyn Witkin, Biologist, National Academy of Sciences, USA
Yang Fujia, Physicist, Chinese & Third World Academies, China
Alexander L. Yanshin, Geologist, Karpinsky Gold Medal, Russia
Yongyuth Yuthavong, Biochemist; Director, National Sci. & Tech. Devl. Agency, Thailand
Zhao Zhong-xian, Physicist, Chinese & Third World Academies, China
Zhou Guang-zhao, Physicist; President, Chinese Academy of Sciences; China
Solly ZuckerInan, Zoologist, Royal Society, Great Britain
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over 1,500 members of national, regional, and inter-national science academies have signed the Warning. Sixty-nine nations from all parts of Earth are represented, including each of the twelve most populous nations and the nineteen largest economic powers. The full list includes a majority of the Nobel laureates in the sciences. Awards and institutional affiliations are listed for the purpose of identification only. The Nobel Prize in medicine is for physiology or medicine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A WORLD SCIENTISTS' WARNING BRIEFING BOOK is available from the Union of Concerned Scientists. It provides the citations to support their WARNING.
Union of Concerned Scientists
96 Church Street
Cambridge, Mass 02238-9105, USA
VOX: 617-547-5552
FAX: 617-864-9405
//www.ucsusa.org/
ucs@igc.apc.org
Warning issued on November 18, 1992
Message edited by author 2005-02-23 02:38:47. |
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02/23/2005 12:27:03 AM · #39 |
Great article, MadMorgeon.
Of course, the fiercely investigative will dismiss them as mere scientists who are foolishly fallible, click their red shoes together, and thereby wave the whole complicated and disturbing notion away.
Still waiting for the first comment on the scientific attributes of the study. Not sure if anybody has actually *read* it.
Actually, quite interesting - the study, that is. Doubly so as the article provided was published in an insurance periodical. Not Treehuggers Quarterly :D |
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02/23/2005 10:23:31 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Great article, MadMorgeon.
Of course, the fiercely investigative will dismiss them as mere scientists who are foolishly fallible, click their red shoes together, and thereby wave the whole complicated and disturbing notion away.
Still waiting for the first comment on the scientific attributes of the study. Not sure if anybody has actually *read* it.
Actually, quite interesting - the study, that is. Doubly so as the article provided was published in an insurance periodical. Not Treehuggers Quarterly :D |
Have YOU? I looked for the "actual study" and couldn't find it posted on the internet. If you've read it, please be so kind as to post a link to it. |
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02/23/2005 10:23:53 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
We USAans really believe in equal opportunity for everyone, don't we : ( |
Yes, but they gotta earn their own way. Shouldn't be any socialism here at all. |
Then what, pray tell, is the purpose of a "society?"
It seems to me that the whole point of rising above the wolfpack is the basic idea that we humans group together for our overall mutual benefit, with some sacrificing what they can spare to aid those in need.
Now, it's only a question of defining how much certain people can "spare," with billionaires apparently able to spare the least ... : ( |
tisk tisk now general. You know that isn't true. The upper 10% income pay 70% of the taxes. (ballpark figures) I love free enterprise. For those of us who work hard and apply ourselves and have a bit of luck or whatever you wish to call it we should be rewarded. There are opportunities for those in need to improve themselves but for many it is easier for them to cry and moan about the rich screwing them than it is for them to get off their ass and do something about their miserable life. If it wern't for the rich..............bla bla bla |
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02/24/2005 09:05:30 PM · #42 |
What a bunch of scared little sheep. I look forward to beach front property, citrus trees, quetzals, in my retirement years here in Colorado. I guess an optimist like me has nothing to do, but adapt, migrate, or die! I'll adapt.
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02/24/2005 09:20:47 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by vtruan:
What a bunch of scared little sheep. I look forward to beach front property, citrus trees, quetzals, in my retirement years here in Colorado. I guess an optimist like me has nothing to do, but adapt, migrate, or die! I'll adapt. |
Ha, ha... this is a predictable joke... but I guess it'll have to do under the circumstances... it'd be too much to expect fresh insight, really.
Message edited by author 2005-02-24 21:26:28.
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02/24/2005 09:24:32 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
The upper 10% income pay 70% of the taxes. (ballpark figures) I love free enterprise. For those of us who work hard and apply ourselves and have a bit of luck or whatever you wish to call it we should be rewarded. There are opportunities for those in need to improve themselves but for many it is easier for them to cry and moan about the rich screwing them than it is for them to get off their ass and do something about their miserable life. If it wern't for the rich..............bla bla bla |
Yes indeed.........if it weren't for the rich.... who sacrifice the lives of the poor to fight wars that the poor did not initiate, have little if any understanding of... have no interest in... nor enjoy any financial gain derived from such undertakings....
Read your history my friend.... the rich have always and will continue to benefit from the services of the poor... were it not the case... we would not see the constant migration of manual type labour to offshore facilities.
The sheer arrogance of statements of this ilk have been the very substance that has fermented revolutions throughout the ages .... It may not prove prudent to stir up the masses, as they are not a happy lot.
Just a thought...
Ray |
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02/24/2005 09:54:22 PM · #45 |
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02/24/2005 10:12:14 PM · #46 |
Thanks Ray... that's certainly something that bears reminding every now and then.
I'm afraid that decades of relative progress have erased that hard-learned lesson from my country's consciousness. Instead, it is now en vogue -- as conservative interests have always done -- to advocate for the interests of the well-to-do (and corporations) over the interests of the actual working class in America.
I marvel at how relatively quickly the social progresses of the last century have been chipped away at since the ascendance of the Southern-conservative wing of the Republican party in my country (ideological members of which were formerly part of the Dixiecrats). (For a quick primer on the history of the "Southern Strategy" and ascendance of the conservative movement, see here). It's a truly amazing thing to witness, and be aware of. What's more interesting is how social conservatism and pro-corporate interests have united to destroy the very things that many folks in my country have taken for granted for many decades, things like: labor protection, environmental protection, the right to confront in court corporate wrongdoers... even civil liberties are being chipped away at or denied all together. Again, the scale and relative speed at which the conservative and pro-corporate interests have moved is quite amazing to see.
What's even more incredible is how dissent and debate are largely absent from the public airwaves (i.e., mainstream media: NY Times, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, et al - note that Fox News is an outright unabashed advocate of the Republican party) in my country. What's more, mainstream media/journalists in my country are pretty spineless and shameless -- this is especially true of TV journalists; as these so-called journalists are always afraid of being labeled "Liberal," so they overcompensate in the opposite direction and all too often advocate for the conservative position. Again, the current state of affairs in my country is quite incredible to witness. Of course, this does not mean that those of us that object to these conditions give up and whither away; in fact, I'd say that quite the opposite is true -- this is the time to fight.
At any rate, thanks for your post Ray... it was very refreshing and welcomed.
.......................................
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Yes indeed.........if it weren't for the rich.... who sacrifice the lives of the poor to fight wars that the poor did not initiate, have little if any understanding of... have no interest in... nor enjoy any financial gain derived from such undertakings....
Read your history my friend.... the rich have always and will continue to benefit from the services of the poor... were it not the case... we would not see the constant migration of manual type labour to offshore facilities.
The sheer arrogance of statements of this ilk have been the very substance that has fermented revolutions throughout the ages .... It may not prove prudent to stir up the masses, as they are not a happy lot.
Just a thought...
Ray |
Message edited by author 2005-02-24 22:25:44.
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02/24/2005 10:23:53 PM · #47 |
Here we go again. When these people stop all the qualifiers in their reporting, and they must use qualifiers because these facts are not or may not be directly attached to man made causes.
This begs the question, was the earth like all the other planets a big ball of fire at the inception. Does it not follow that the cooling is not linear. Granted that we should reduce excessive waste of chemicals into waterways etc. But again, all this knowledge and where are the computer models for the information at the core of the earth.
Look, like I said earlier we all know that first this earth is not in a stable equilibrium. The very core can erupt causing massive upheavels and while these may be somewhat predictable, all the instrument pick up is the humming before the catastrophy. If our knowledge were better, we would have this information months ahead of time.
You people talk as if the earth is natures gift to men and that if he tenders it all will be fine. I do not think so. These changes may be of important historical value. Remember that there are many cities buried and remember that the ancient upheavels were before the industrial age.
While it is true that earth warming may be taking place, It makes more sense to consider the event too big to put the blame on men.
Yes, I know, it makes you feel smug because it has that concern thing and the opportunity to attack those that don't support this belief. Just look at the formation of earth and land. Look at it closely and you will find the end result of heavy lava, great earthquakes and mainly major upheavels. What caused these things? Where you guys there with your computer models predicting the division of the earth and sea and blaming ancients civilization for what we know see?
Consider the interruption in the evolution process. Perhaps there is a link but some past upheavel has turned the earth upside down and changed the geography so completely that was above water is now below.
My observation is that we do not know just how long it will be before it all goes spoof. Do not lose any sleep directing hatred at your fellow men because you know better. Nobody knows. It is just a political thing the left wants. It is simply out of synch and wants to identify with the saving of the planet. I say, get a life and enjoy it as these beliefs will pit you against your very neighbor.
Message edited by author 2005-02-24 22:32:54. |
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02/24/2005 10:31:34 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
The upper 10% income pay 70% of the taxes. (ballpark figures) I love free enterprise. For those of us who work hard and apply ourselves and have a bit of luck or whatever you wish to call it we should be rewarded. There are opportunities for those in need to improve themselves but for many it is easier for them to cry and moan about the rich screwing them than it is for them to get off their ass and do something about their miserable life. If it wern't for the rich..............bla bla bla |
A few of my favorite quotes:
"A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." ..........George Bernard Shaw
"A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money." ..........G. Gordon Liddy
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner." ..........James Bovard
"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free." ..........P.J. O'Rourke
"In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other." ..........Voltaire
"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery." ..........Winston Churchill
"If you are young, and not liberal, then you don't have a heart. If you are old, and not conservative, then you don't have a brain." ..........Winston Chruchill
"There is nothing ignorant about my liberal friends; it's just that so much of what they know isn't so." ..........Ronald Reagan
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure." ..........Alexander Tyler
And then there's this, from the man who would be vice-president:
"If you work hard, then you should be rewarded for that effort. It is a time-honored tradition. It is what built this country." ..........John Edwards
But apparently those rewards should vary inversely with income level and come to a screeching halt the minute one reaches $200,000. |
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02/24/2005 10:38:07 PM · #49 |
If the "environmentalists" are wrong, we clean up the air, save gas, reduce disease (health care costs!), and maybe force businesses to divert a small portion of their profits into better waste management, all "for nothing."
If the fossil fuel profiteers are wrong, we wipe out coastal lands for sure, and maybe destroy civilization and possibly all life.
Which side should bear the "burden of proof" before we commit ourselves to their program?
Message edited by author 2005-02-24 22:39:00. |
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02/24/2005 10:49:35 PM · #50 |
Graphicfunk,
Seems that your conclusion, while very cosmic (in the popular sense), that is, "Hey, over the long term it won't matter any ways since you'll be dead, so why worry about it?" Is, actually, very shortsighted. It's pretty clear -- in spite of how loudly conservatives in this country negate its existence -- that global warming is real, and that a century-plus of industrialization is a major contributing factor. I don't know about you, but as a lay person I know that I cannot attack nor explain the data that supports the existence of and human causation of global warming. However, it's pretty clear that environmental degradation is part of industrialization, human encroachment into previously undeveloped areas, etc. Accordingly, given the rapid global development of the past century, it stands to reason that we are in fact affecting our environment.
Now, clearly we -- humans and nations alike -- are not going to stop developing; however, given the data, and the lessons from previous human societies that over-exploited their environment, it would be foolish and shortsighted of us if we didn't start making certain long term preparations.
For example, we -- as nations -- ought to opt for cleaner fuels all across the board; we ought to develop communities, products and resources so that much of our materials are recycled; etc., etc., so on and so on. Now, my sole point is that we ought to make environmental choices that prolong the long term viability of our communities and environment. Now, this does not necessarily mean that our economies need to suffer -- at the most basic level, we ought to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time: develop sustainable and environmentally responsible energy/consumption strategies, while stimulating economic development in the near-term. We can do both. But, in order to do both, we must learn that collaboration is essential and that international partners will facilitate such progress.
Again, it does not have to be one over the other, instead: It's both, simultaneously, with the aim towards reducing those practices that harm our collective environment.
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