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05/07/2003 10:08:00 PM · #1 |
Unless I am convenced otherwise, I am concidering altering my method of voting.
Historically my score does not change by more than ± .3 from start to finish. Therefore I will score all of the entries reletive to where I think they should finish in comparison to my entry. I will, to the best of my ability and with as little bias as possible vote fair. Adjustments will be made throughout the contest period if my score dictates a change.
What I hope to achieve by this is a more fair assesment of all entries and I also expect my score of an individual photo to more closely match the average. My voting average is aprx 1.8 higher than my personal score------well, that likely is irrevelent---nevermind.
I usually vote a number of 8-10's and I will still give these scores for the truly excelent photos. Ones and two's are for the ones clearly not meeting the challenge and the repulsive.
In the end I hope my entry has finished close to where I placed it. Hopefully this will make me a better judge.
Your Thoughts Please
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05/07/2003 10:30:35 PM · #2 |
I think you should vote however you like :)
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05/08/2003 01:18:47 AM · #3 |
I vote the same way, where I wait a day before voting until I can get a fair estimate of how my pic is doing... Then I generally vote on the pics in the challenge based on the avg. vote my pic is getting, but, you have to be as objective as possible. I also round up... meaning if my pic is at 5.5 and I feel another is about as good as mine I give it a 6 instead of a 5. Even if mine is 5.1 I'll round up.
And I rarely give 10's, 1's or 2's. I'm really surprised at the number of 1's and 2's I see because unless the picture is absolutely terrible or obnoxious, then I don't see a reason to give it a 1. And for 10's the picture has to perfect in almost every way which in my opinion is not very common.
I think another good method is to take a quick look at the all of the thumbnail pictures first to get a general feel for what the entries looks like... Then you may be more prepaired to make more consistent votes when looking at the full pics.
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05/08/2003 03:13:55 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Therefore I will score all of the entries reletive to where I think they should finish in comparison to my entry. |
Given the fact that most contestants usually position their image in the top ten, if everbody uses your methodology, most of us will all be gratified with sub-zero ratings by the end of the week. Think about it.
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05/08/2003 03:16:09 AM · #5 |
It's one of those confusing paradox brain-melting loops of death.
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05/08/2003 04:19:54 AM · #6 |
David Ey,
you should vote however you want, you do not need to justify your type of voting. When you are doing it this way by asking other people, that means you are not sure and you are in doubt! |
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05/08/2003 04:20:24 AM · #7 |
I think that if someone went through the trouble of taking a decent picture that matches the challenge, and it isn't absolutely terrible- they deserve a 5 by default.
I save my 9's and 10's for the truly deserving, and my 1's -3's for the truly horrific (glad to say they're rare). :) |
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05/08/2003 12:35:46 PM · #8 |
Amen jjbeguin. I for one, I am truly disapointed at the way things have been going here. I thought that your submissions were looked at as individual photo's and voted accordingly. Apparently,at least with comments above,we are being judge according to how some perseive their own photo's and how our photo's stack up against theirs,along with how the votes are averaging. I thought that's what the system is suppose to do,average the votes,not the individual according to the votes their particular entry is receiving.
Then we have the "comments" problem. I haven't made one comment on the "glass" submissions because, heaven forbid,it wouldn't be a "constructive" comment,and be slammed in the forums. But,as you can all see by the total lack of comments overall in the "glass" challenge,folks here,alot of beginners like myself,are very reluctant to make any comment. Consequently,we are NOT learning or having FUN as this site was intended.
sherryk |
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05/08/2003 12:53:55 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by sherryk471:
Amen jjbeguin. I for one, I am truly disapointed at the way things have been going here. I thought that your submissions were looked at as individual photo's and voted accordingly. Apparently,at least with comments above,we are being judge according to how some perseive their own photo's and how our photo's stack up against theirs,along with how the votes are averaging. I thought that's what the system is suppose to do,average the votes,not the individual according to the votes their particular entry is receiving.
Then we have the "comments" problem. I haven't made one comment on the "glass" submissions because, heaven forbid,it wouldn't be a "constructive" comment,and be slammed in the forums. But,as you can all see by the total lack of comments overall in the "glass" challenge,folks here,alot of beginners like myself,are very reluctant to make any comment. Consequently,we are NOT learning or having FUN as this site was intended.
sherryk |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think submissions _are_ looked at as individual photos for the most part.
How why this tit for tat voting got started I don't know.
I do know it's not a good idea.
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05/08/2003 01:21:25 PM · #10 |
| I certainly hope this type of voting is not a trend, Justine. Thanks |
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05/08/2003 03:45:46 PM · #11 |
I agree, I hope this is not a trend. I was tempted to vote relatively to my score in the beginning of when I joined DPC, but then I realized that this will stop myself from learning to look objectively at my own photos. You always think better about your photos than they really are.
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05/08/2003 06:49:22 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by stephan:
.......then I realized that this will stop myself from learning to look objectively at my own photos. You always think better about your photos than they really are. |
Well, I disagree some here... if my assessment is correct I should finish at about 170 in the Glass challenge. Actually my score indicates finishing at about 200. You are correct in one respect though. Before I saw the other entries I thought it might be in top 25.
THANK YOU ALL for your input...David |
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05/09/2003 04:23:16 AM · #13 |
I think you might have the highest average vote cast on this site David - 6.5 is hugely generous. Obviously you can vote how you like, but I think trying to vote relatively is possibly a mistake: though your last comment indicates an unusal ability to be objective about your own work.
What annoys me are those who's average vote cast is around 4, or even lower, and how often their average vote recieved is at a similar level.
For myself, I take 5 as an average vote - a decent photo with nothing outstanding at all; I then move that number up for positive elements - intersting lighting, composition, treatment of subject, etc., and down for problems - focus, exposure, poor composition, obvious errors, not meeting the challenge. Usually give only one 10, perhaps two 9's.
Ed
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05/09/2003 05:12:37 AM · #14 |
David,
If you can actually be objective for real, you will ultimately end up voting pretty much the same way you normally vote. This would mean you'd probably waiting a day or two before you started voting. If you go into the voting without seeing any picture and figure your photo is worth about 7 and it's right up there with the top and then your average starts out at 4.5, that will throw things out of kilter pretty bad. You might be voting that way now, but don't realize it.
Whatever the case, be fair and consistent and apply your methods to all pics and it will all work out in the end.
BoB
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05/09/2003 07:59:50 AM · #15 |
I am new to this site, so far I haven't submitted any photos, and I am now voting for my second contest, Glass (the first was Transportation). Reading this thread, I'm becoming aware of the dilemma that faces voters who are also entrants. If the votes you cast average, say, 6.5, while the overall contest average is 5, you're doing yourself a disservice, irrespective of whether your photo is good or bad, or does well or bad. You're simply giving away more than you get back, even if you get high ratings. (I'm sure I'm not the first to make this observation.)
I can think of a solution to this problem (this must have been suggested before by others, too). When all the votes are in, a normalization procedure could be applied, to the effect that all voters have equal influence on the final score. Here's an example of how this could be done.
1) Calculate the average vote for each entry (photograph).
2) For each voter, calculate the sum of their votes.
3) For each voter, calculate the sum of the average ratings of the photos that they voted for (1).
4) Calculate a voter's "vote factor": divide the result of 3) by the result of 2).
5) Normalize (recalculate) a voter's votes by multiplying them by their vote factor (4).
Are you still with me?
The result of this procedure will be that entrants can vote more generously if they so like, without damaging their own chances, and there is no longer any need to relate your votes to the average rating you are receiving yourself.
What do you think?
Gerrit
Message edited by author 2003-05-09 08:26:34. |
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05/09/2003 08:07:21 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Gerrit:
I am new to this site, so far I haven't submitted any photos, and I am now voting for my second contest, Glass (the first was Transportation). Reading this thread, I'm becoming aware of the dilemma that faces voters who are also entrants. If the votes you cast average, say, 6.5, while the overall contest average is 5, you're doing yourself a disservice, irrespective of whether your photo is good or bad, or does well or bad. You're simply giving away more than you get back, even if you get high ratings. (I'm sure I'm not the first to make this observation.)
I can think of a solution to this problem (this must have been suggested before by others, too). When all the votes are in, a normalization procedure could be applied, to the effect that all voters have equal influence on the final score. Here's an example of how this could be done.
1) Calculate the average vote for each entry (photograph).
2) For each voter, calculate the sum of their votes.
3) For each voter, calculate the sum of the average ratings of the photos that they voted for (1).
4) Calculate a voter's "vote factor": divide the result of 3) by the result of 2).
5) Normalize (recalculate) a voter's votes by multiplying them with their vote factor (4).
Are you still with me?
The result of this procedure will be that entrants can vote more generously if they so like, without damaging their own chances, and there is no longer any need to relate your votes to the average rating you are receiving yourself.
What do you think?
Gerrit |
I think you way overanalyzed this. I vote based on my general feeling about a photo +/- technical merit or shortcomings.
Added after I accidently hit the "post" button: I don't think the rating system needs fixing. If there were big prize money or something, its worth looking at. Let's just keep it simple and have fun.
Message edited by author 2003-05-09 08:11:37. |
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05/09/2003 08:27:39 AM · #17 |
I think there might be something in some form of 'normalizing'. But surely all that would be needed would be to bring each voter's votes up or down to the 'true' average of 5.5
But this doesn't allow for those who genuinely believe the average quality of shots here is 4 or so.
Think it generally works pretty well, myself, though.
E
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05/09/2003 08:37:07 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by e301:
I think you might have the highest average vote cast on this site David - 6.5 is hugely generous. Obviously you can vote how you like, but I think trying to vote relatively is possibly a mistake: though your last comment indicates an unusal ability to be objective about your own work.
What annoys me are those who's average vote cast is around 4, or even lower, and how often their average vote recieved is at a similar level.
For myself, I take 5 as an average vote - a decent photo with nothing outstanding at all; I then move that number up for positive elements - intersting lighting, composition, treatment of subject, etc., and down for problems - focus, exposure, poor composition, obvious errors, not meeting the challenge. Usually give only one 10, perhaps two 9's.
Ed |
This is pretty much my method, too. An unremarkable, technically OK picture is a 5. I then add or deduct points as appropriate. 10s from me are rare - perhaps 1 or 2 per challenge (if that). 1s are even rarer - most pictures have some redeeming qualities.
And I think trying to vote relatively to your own entry is a *bad* idea, for all sorts of practical and philosphical reasons.
As an observation, however people vote, in most of the challenges I've voted on, I've thought the winner to be deserving of at least a top three place. So it seems to work out OK.
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05/09/2003 09:05:08 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by e301:
What annoys me are those who's average vote cast is around 4, or even lower, and how often their average vote recieved is at a similar level.Ed |
??? |
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05/09/2003 10:41:10 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Unless I am convenced otherwise, I am concidering altering my method of voting.
Historically my score does not change by more than ± .3 from start to finish. Therefore I will score all of the entries reletive to where I think they should finish in comparison to my entry. I will, to the best of my ability and with as little bias as possible vote fair. Adjustments will be made throughout the contest period if my score dictates a change.
What I hope to achieve by this is a more fair assesment of all entries and I also expect my score of an individual photo to more closely match the average. My voting average is aprx 1.8 higher than my personal score------well, that likely is irrevelent---nevermind.
I usually vote a number of 8-10's and I will still give these scores for the truly excelent photos. Ones and two's are for the ones clearly not meeting the challenge and the repulsive.
In the end I hope my entry has finished close to where I placed it. Hopefully this will make me a better judge.
Your Thoughts Please |
I honestly don't often feel that my entries are very good. With very few exceptions there are many things I know I could improve upon, flaws I recognise and elements that I should improve. As a result from your scheme, I should be voting everyone else with a 7-10 type scale ? After all I don't think mine should finish very high. Each to his own, but your scheme doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Guess it depends on how good you think you are or not.
Message edited by author 2003-05-09 10:41:51. |
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05/09/2003 03:03:35 PM · #21 |
Well Gordon, I don't think I am good at all. Maybe slightly above a beginner. As I said in another thread, I usually like my entry much morebeforeI see the other entries.
What I was trying to achieve is a better balance of my voting to the mean by using my current entry's average after 15-20 votes as a scale. I felt my voting was possibly too generous.
I now think I placed too much importance on the vote and will likely revert to my old method....1-3 don't like it.....4-6 like it, maybe a lot....7-9 man I wish I could do that... 10 HIGHLY PROFESSIONAL and forget about my photo's score.
cheers |
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05/09/2003 03:55:01 PM · #22 |
David,
While I think it's absurd to vote the way you outlined, it's no more absurd then some other ways I've heard of. I personally vote each shot on it's own merits (unless there is a cat in it). It seems to make more sense to me.
If you want to vote using a Ouija board, it's fine with me, as long as you apply your method fairly and evenly to all photos.
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