DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register) 
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> London, Terrorism and the World
Pages:  
Showing posts 101 - 125 of 292, (reverse)
AuthorThread
 07/08/2005 12:44:31 PM · #101
Originally posted by louddog:
Have any minors actually been executed recently or did they just change a law that was no longer in use?

Well, as the legal process is so drawn out it's highly unlikely that any offender will still be a minor by the time the sentence is carried out, so we're actually talking about imposing the death penalty on those who were minors at the time of the crime.

Since January 1990 there have been 39 such executions worldwide. The USA is responsible for 19 of them.

At the point where such executions were finally banned by the Supreme Court, there were a further 72 offenders waiting on death row.
 07/08/2005 12:57:25 PM · #102
Originally posted by bcoble:
The only way (I believe) that a non democratic society will survive is if the leading ruleing party follows the desires of the people. A country will not survive forcing ones will.


Great point, but it will survive if the tyrant simply kills everyone that disagrees with them and forces people to live in fear. This is where outside help is required.
 07/08/2005 01:00:30 PM · #103
Originally posted by ganders:
Originally posted by louddog:
Have any minors actually been executed recently or did they just change a law that was no longer in use?

Well, as the legal process is so drawn out it's highly unlikely that any offender will still be a minor by the time the sentence is carried out, so we're actually talking about imposing the death penalty on those who were minors at the time of the crime.

Since January 1990 there have been 39 such executions worldwide. The USA is responsible for 19 of them.

At the point where such executions were finally banned by the Supreme Court, there were a further 72 offenders waiting on death row.


Thanks, just curoius and too lazy to look it up. My opinion would be on a case by case basis. If a kid 3 days away from his 18th birthday randomly killed a busload of people I would want him on deathrow... A 9 year old that finds Dad's gun and kills the neighbor, probably not.

edit to add, this is a whole different topic though...

Message edited by author 2005-07-08 13:01:35.
 07/08/2005 01:42:12 PM · #104
Okay - going to try and pick up on the bigger points, not the nitpicking disagreements.

Originally posted by theSaj:

I am one of the rare ones who actually read Osama's letter to America to hear what he wants and what his reason for hating us. Essentially, beyond our support of supporting Israel what he listed was our gross sexual immorality (the irony, the conservatives leading the war are in many ways defending the liberal thoughts and ideas of which they disagree with regards to this issue), banking (Islam does not believe in charging usury or interest), and other moral issues.


From Wikipedia:

The public speeches and writings of Osama bin Laden suggest that the majority of his hatred for the United States is directed at the United States government and three particular policies: its support for Israel, its stationing of American troops in the Middle East, and its support for sanctions against Iraq.

Originally posted by theSaj:
Plagued....excuse me? There were only a small handful of such cases. But see, that's part of the problem with our media. It will hype those few cases to the extreme cause headlines sell.


fine disagree with the word, which I expained the use of and stand by in sentiment (the sentiment plagued the US, and the result was 8 murders of "middle eastern looking" people, mostly Sikhs). Point is valid without it. We do not want revenge killings and/or tension in our city and country.

Originally posted by theSaj:
"There is no justification for the religous discrimination that you are practicing."
Religious discrimination...??? in America you are allowed to worship so long as it does not harm another. But I am sorry, I won't stand by and deny that Islamic extremists carry violence to every border that Islam shares. And NO OTHER RELIGION currently does such. Most had their reformations....Islam is in dire need of theirs.


You directed your comments at Islam, the religion, not extremism, the cause of terror. Are you allowed to incite religious hatred in the US? Whether you are or not, I find it a morally despicable action.

Originally posted by theSaj:
Well, it did not take any religious extremism for Germany to kill so many. Nor did it take it for Russia to mass kill tens of millions of people. (I guess that'd be labelled "secular" extremism. ;)
No the issue is the heart of man and his lack of love for his fellow man.


Do not know what your point is here - yes, people have killed in secular wars. Agree with you if you are suggesting that the overarching purpose of the terrorist agenda is not religious so much as it is political, in uniting Muslim countries by the creation of a common enemy. Religion is a useful tool (eg Yugoslavia, which was a federal/Albanian dispute until Milosovic, the war criminal, started using religous terminology to fan the flames). Sadly, I doin't think that you are saying that - I think that you believe that the problem relates to one religion, Islam.

Originally posted by theSaj:
However, the ayatollahs and certain head "religious" leaders are able to influence people in all said states. It'd be akin to me reference the Catholics. Are they a state? no (albeit the Vatican) but to deny the affect that the Papal seat has throughout the catholic world would be quite foolish. And that authority is to blame for quite a bit of dastardly actions on the part of mankind.


There are many liberal religious leaders in Islam. I agree that the hard line and extremist teachings are damaging in Islam, as they are in Judaism and Christianity. There may be more hard line clerics in Islam than in the Western religions, and their power is increasing with every provocative step that we, the West, take.

But by lumping all muslims together and treating them as if they are all as bad as the worst, you do such a disservice to most Muslims, and by your argument, yourself. Your words suggest to me that you view Muslims as lesser beings - incorrect, misguided, violent, unempathetic. I do not think that you have travelled much in Muslim countries, nor met many Muslims.

Originally posted by theSaj:
And in truth, there is a trend of conflict seen with most predominantly Muslim countries that is not seen elsewhere. Of course this does not include all. But it includes a lot. And while much of the world mourned on 9-11. There was rejoicing throughout most of the Islamic countries.

As for christian countries. Sure, Europe had it's was last century. There are some squabbles in S. America. But I don't see anything like what I see with predominantly Islamic nations. Especially when seen as a "percentage".


I am not going to try and go through the depths of your misunderstanding about every conflict, except to say that you put the US and Israel at the top of your list. Most of those wars were secular, with a religous dressing. It takes two to tango.

Your view of the Muslim world celebrating is not reflected in everyday people. None of my friends, or the people I have met in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, or from Iraq and Iran do anything other than despair over the actions of the extremists. Most of them have a very high regard for the US, and no small amount of fear that their countries will be next on the target list. Many still resent the actions of the US, especially in regards to Israel and the oppression of the Palestinians (it is possible to have mixed emotions, and to like and hold in regards a nation, while disagreeing with its policies vehemently (as I and many others do with the US).

Originally posted by theSaj:
Forcing them to be sub-citizens unable to go to school, etc. when Taliban rule is implemented. Or lets address the cases in many "partnership" arab countries. Sisters who are raped by their half brothers are put to death because it's obvious their bodies were the tempters. I'm sorry...they might revere but reverence and imprisonment, control and abuse can go together. They revere but they do not respect in those regions. That is not to say everywhere. Nor is it to say we did not have the same problem in the western culture until the past hundred years or so. But it's time for those regions to catch up. In that, I will blame most cultures regardless of religion in those regions of the world.


The examples you give are from Afghanistan - the military junta imposed religious extremism, which no one tries to defend, but most do not equate with mainstream Islam - and from Saudi - worldwide criticised, with a bad human rights record (but oil rich). In that respect, from the hard line and unrepresentative spectrum of Islamic regimes. You take the worst examples from those regimes, and suggest that it equates to every other person who shares the same religion. That approach is inciteful of hatred, and misleading. Adolf Hitler was a Christian, but I do not suggest that gassing Jews is typical of Germans or of Christians.

Originally posted by theSaj:
"The culture is widely misunderstood in the West."
You're right, I can't understand blaming the woman for being raped and executing her to save the family from shame - and letting the perpetrator go free.


yup - that happens all the time round where I live (large Islamic population) and we saw it happen all the time when visiting the region. And I saw murders happen on every street corner of the US, with pimps and hookers, and drug lords plying their trade in every block, the police beating up suspects left right and centre, with people being executed after kangaroo show trials without proper representation, as the rest of the nation waddled around in their 300 pound body bags... NO - you cannot take isolated cases of cultural (not religious) acts, that occur in small areas of the world (such as India - Hindu, and Saudi - hard line, and Afghanistan - Military Junta) and apply to a religion.

Originally posted by theSaj:
Perhaps it is different where you are. But where I am, many I talked to would condemn it [9-11] quickly but only to follow it with a "but". And if you asked them to condemn it without the "but" they'd remain silent or refuse to do so.


Condemnation of an act need not be unreserved: I condemn the acts of and motives behind 9-11 utterly, but I understand why they acted thus. I condemn the action utterly. I condemn the reasons behindd it, but I do not think that the US can absolve itself of all blame in the policies that have resulted in it becoming a target. So: total condemnation of the act. Condemnation of the reasoning. But reserving the right to criticise the US recent foreign policy.

You don't get to avoid criticism for all your past sins just because you are the subject of a terrorist act.

Originally posted by theSaj:
Sorry you don't understand enough about America, Gitmo, etc. to know what you are talking about on this particular issue.


To the contrary - from Wikipedia:

"Critics of US prisoner of war policies also question the propriety of using an offshore prison, and the unclear legal status it causes for its detainees (neither prisoners of war, not tried as common criminals). Because the territory is not US soil, it is unclear whether the detainees are protected by the same constitutionally guaranteed civil rights, which would otherwise be invoked if they were detained in the US."

Please please try and argue that the Gitmo prisoners have their constitutional rights preserved!!

Originally posted by theSaj:

But I've heard first hand accounts by soldiers who have been serving at Gitmo. How the U.S. has provided Korans, prayer matts, allows for the call of Muslim prayers 5 times a day. Most of the references I've heard to torture in reference to Gitmo have been far from torture.


Respect for religious difference is not a privilege - it is a basic human right to have access to religious equipment. It took months to arrive. The abuses of so many human rights proticols and treaties is too long to mention - this is just one of many that got fixed. I cannot believe that you are holding up the compliance with one rule of human rights as evidence of humane treatment. The far and beyond most important human right is to no detention without a fair trial. Or to proper treatment under the codes for detention of war criminals. And there has been ZERO compliance on that front.

Originally posted by theSaj:
"Second, your nation has one of the worst human rights records for capital punishment in the world."
Please explain, I believe we try (often two or three times) every man who receives capital punishment for their crimes.


The US comes fourth in the world statistics (China has the far and largest issue here) for numbers exectued in 2004 (Amnesty).

But the US gets to win on child executions:

"Since 1990 Amnesty International has documented 39 executions of child offenders in eight countries: China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the USA and Yemen. Several of these countries have changed their laws to exclude the practice. Executions of child offenders represent a tiny fraction of the total of executions worldwide recorded by Amnesty International each year. The USA has executed more child offenders than any other country. "

Whether the death penalty is appropriate is another debate, save that in most of the world it is outlawed (or abandoned), and in particular throughout the remainder of the West.

Originally posted by theSaj:
"The growth of Christian fundamentalism in the West scares me"
And if it's any consolation...there is not a growth but a decline and polarization. And that is why you are seeing such movement.


Yup - polarisation means one extreme or another. The growth of extremism in the USa nd the West, or if you want to call it polarisation, the growth of polarisation in the US and the West, alarms me.
Originally posted by theSaj:
"then it will occur naturally and gradually"
BULLCRAP!!!! You can't have it occur naturally in this day and age with the armaments and weapons of destruction we have. A tyrant with a small group of armed men can ensure his position indefinitely against any uprising of an unarmed populace. His only threat is that of someone of strength within in his power circle.


Like throughout Eastern Europe in the last two decades? Say, about 15 examples of just that. The Czech "Velvet Revolution" does not refer to the velvet of coffins.

Originally posted by theSaj:

Man LB you are so misled. Blatant pandering to the christian right. People vote, and do so on their convictions. Now if they're convictions are based in part on their religious beliefs there is nothing wrong with that. Or are you advocating that christians in America should not have the right to vote?


Are you saying people should vote in religious leaders or not: GWB is courting the Christian Right with illiberal, Christian policies. He is a very right wing Christian. You do not allow religion to be used in the Iraq elections as an electioneering tool, nor overtly religious candidates to stand, so why is it allowed in the US?

Originally posted by theSaj:
"teaching creationism?"
Um...yeah...sure...where the heck did you hear that. Most of the fight has been over simply having a sticker that reads. Sure there's been a big push to teach abstinance along with sex-ed. Perhaps you confused the two christian right objectives.


Yup - that sticker: creationist (or for fashionistas, "ID") propaganda, not science teaching. And the abstinence campaign is another example. Christian objectives, not politically motivated attempts to distribute aid fairly, nor teach science accurately.


07/08/2005 02:17:17 PM · #105
/me takes a deep breath and prepares herself for public ridicule and permanent banishment from the site ;)

Originally posted by neophyte:
Most terrorist are misguided youths that have been educated by the church because the country's economy can't or prefers not to pay for proper schooling. what you get is a bunch of frustrated young adults and adolecents schooled in church doctrine and no real marketable skills. Our greed and arrogance doesn't help but is not an excuse. I am often in garden city NY, a city in Long Island that lost many people in the collapse of the world trade center towers. There is no just war but the people and governments responsible for this must be brought to answer...And Saddam??? Who here would've liked to live under his rule?????? I didn't think so. God bless America and Great Britain. Where liberty and freedom reign!! and the price is high. But in light of the alternative, I'd be willing to pay.


I agree 110%.

I am a native Texan. I am Cherokee Indian. I am also Irish, French, and Scottish. I am a woman. I am a mother. I am a Christian (not practicing as much as I should these days, but that's my own problem). I am educated. I am a voter. I support capital punishment. I am pro-choice. I am a taxpayer, an educator, and one hell of a loyal employee. But above all of these, I am a patriotic American.

I was raised to believe that this country was founded upon principles that all men were created equal and were endowed by the Creator the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But I also recall this part of the Declaration of Independence, that states "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

I was taught that we have a system of government that is fair, just, and best of all, interactive. I have the right privilege to vote to change things that I think should be changed, and I have the responsibility to provide my faith and support to those who are elected to make these decisions for me, even if my vote went to the other candidate.

I may know a little bit about a lot of things, but I know I don't know enough to run this beautiful country of mine and I must believe that those who do know best are the ones who were elected via our system of voting (which includes the electoral college and that is another story for another time). I know that as a country, I cannot think of any complete lunatic or psychopath who was elected as President and was hell-bent on destroying civilization as we know it. We have had the good fortune to have educated presidents with the country's good at heart. Their methods may not have always been appropriate in the eyes of many, nor has been some of their conduct (such is human nature). It never matters who is elected as President, because the "other" side will ALWAYS find things to rail them about, founded or not.

I have always been a little bit ashamed of my rather redneck upbringing, because I was raised by a father who was very opinionated, bigoted, and loud. My mother, the complete polar opposite, was the one who made sure I knew that just because he thought the things he did, I didn't have to. But I did learn one thing from my dad...that I love this country and I love the fact that, in general terms, I can do just about anything I damn near want to do, when I want to do it. Daddy used to talk to me about the draft dodgers and how ashamed he was that people would stoop so low as to leave the country rather than fight for it's freedom. I used to think he was rambling, or just crazy, or on a tear like he would get on occasionally after a Lone Star beer or three. Now that I'm older, and he's been gone 6 years, I can finally see where he was coming from.

When I hear people saying terrible things about my country, my president, and my way of life, it saddens me. Whether I voted for the man or not, I owe my support and my trust to the fact that he's doing the best he can to keep me and my family safe in very unpredictible times.

When I hear people say the war is all about oil, it saddens me. Whether I voted for the man or not, I choose to believe that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are about making the world safer for those who refuse to let terrorism and tyranny become the victors.

When I hear people say it's our President's fault that London was attacked yesterday, it saddens me. Whether I voted for the man or not, his relationship with Prime Minister Blair, and England's subsequent allied involvement in the war, cannot be blamed for the acts of religious extremists who ARE hell-bent on destroying civilization as we know it. I wouldn't matter who was president or prime minister, the various terrorist/religious extremist networks would still be blowing up buses, buildings, trains, and people. The people in power in other countries is of little consequence to them.

When people rant on and on about how horrible our President is and how stupid Americans are for electing him to power, and how unjust the war is, I don't get sad or angry, but I can't help but think to myself, "Go do better. Show me. Run for office and let me give you my support if you can indeed make better decisions for all of us. I'm waiting." If half the energy that people expend on political hatred could be spent on getting a campaign ready, we might have some more progressive leadership right now. But you have to go through the motions. You can't stand on a streetcorner (or sit behind a computer desk) and bitch about it all day and all night and expect anything to happen. If you run for office, and your platform delivers to me what I think is best for my family and my community and my country, then you get my vote. It's that simple. I hold no party affiliations, so I am flexible. Show me that you are the better candidate and I will support you all the way to the White House.

I say all that to say this. I love my country and I support my President, even ones for which I didn't vote. I support the troops who are out there fighting for me. I wish everyone were afforded the freedoms I have, even something as basic as the freedom to type this silly message and post it up on the internet for all the world to see. I know that this freedom comes at a great price...and I respect and honor those who have laid down their lives in order for me to have the rights I behold today.

I don't plan on responding to any petty jabs taken at my insignificant post, because I really don't need to know what you think or if you agree with me...it doesn't matter if you think I am naive, misguided, stupid, or a raving lunatic. I just wanted to state how I feel about the situation.

/me breathes again.

P.S. To pay homage to my redneck roots...here's a little Merle Haggard for you. ;)

I hear people talkin' bad,
About the way we have to live here in this country,
Harpin' on the wars we fight,
An' gripin' 'bout the way things oughta be.
An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides,
An' standin' up for things they believe in.
When they're runnin' down my country, man,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

I read about some squirrely guy,
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'.
An' I wonder just how long,
The rest of us can count on bein' free.
They love our milk an' honey,
But they preach about some other way of livin'.
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
 07/08/2005 02:28:48 PM · #106


And I, with the exception of one or two beliefs stated in the first paragraph, stand proudly with her. :)

07/08/2005 02:34:57 PM · #107
Originally posted by karmat:


LOL ;)
 07/08/2005 02:43:55 PM · #108
Originally posted by laurielblack:


When I hear people say it's our President's fault that London was attacked yesterday, it saddens me. Whether I voted for the man or not, his relationship with Prime Minister Blair, and England's subsequent allied involvement in the war, cannot be blamed for the acts of religious extremists who ARE hell-bent on destroying civilization as we know it. I wouldn't matter who was president or prime minister, the various terrorist/religious extremist networks would still be blowing up buses, buildings, trains, and people. The people in power in other countries is of little consequence to them.

.


Laurie ~I know you are not looking for replies, I don't blame the `USA or Bush or Blair for the London bombings and I certainly do not blame any US citizens - the bombers could easily have been British born and bred- and I admire your patriotism BUT:-

the reason London was targeted was because of our acts in the Middle East - not because they just fancied blowing us up because we do not agree with their views or religion. They are extremists but they also see us as extremists. When I know how close my son was to this tragedy (see Legalbeagles photos) I feel physically sick. I cannot blame anyone but the bastards who did the bombing but I think if we hadn't gone in to Iraq we wouldn't be mourning over 50 people today,

Pauline
 07/08/2005 03:19:25 PM · #109
There were two main aspects, the first address Israel, the middle-east, oil, etc. That was number 1. The second addressed us...

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.


Observer Worldview Extra
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

Observer Worldview

Sunday November 24, 2002

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
[Demand for conversion]

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

to reject the immoral acts of fornication [lewdness, casual sex, sexual revolution... *poof*]

homosexuality [death to the homosexual lifestyle]

intoxicants [good by alchohol]

gambling's [good by lotto]

trading with interest. [no more banks]

[alternative moral lifestyles are unacceptable]

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire.
[Statement that Democrocacy is in opposition to bin Laden's understanding of Islam.]

...You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator.
[opposed to "seperation of church and state", I think this if funny, in leiu that this is a big tenant of Legalbeagle's - that religion should not be mixed with politics. According to bin Laden, your view is an abomination and must be removed, yes by force.]

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury
[re-iterates the abolition of the banking industry]

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom....Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account.
[More statements with regards to immorality. I think it's funny...the conservatives are blamed for this war. But it is in fact the liberals who's behaviors have so incessed Osama's faction.]

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.
[removal of the stock system]

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.
[sex sells this, sex sells that,...no more scantily dressed women on TV and commercials....berkas for all!]

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS
[his actions are in his opinion part of Allah's judgment on the U.S. for it's sexual lewdness of which he blames the arising of the AIDS plague on the U.S.]

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.
[E.L.F. should appreciate this line...]

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.
[Okay, can't really argue with the italicized part on this...Osama...you're actually right on this one.]

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.
[okay, this one includes Israel, but it's just the first of many.]

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation.

This is the key. If we fail to meet ALL (each and every one of these criteria) then expect to fight the Islamic Nation. (Wait LB, what nation is being talked about here? Wait weren't you who said there was no Islamic Nation? You see, the Islamic Nation is a fringe of 5%-20% of the islamic populace. It exists INSIDE other nations, throughout other nations strongest in muslim nations in which they have greater influence. Silent and growing in others.

SO I ASK, LEGALBEAGLE, are you ready to accept their terms? To wipe away homosexuality, banking, sexual promiscuitity, gambling, the stock market and more?

Read the whole thing for yourself....
 07/08/2005 03:49:48 PM · #110
Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
You directed your comments at Islam, the religion, not extremism, the cause of terror. Are you allowed to incite religious hatred in the US? Whether you are or not, I find it a morally despicable action.


I hear you make quite a few harsh references to christians. So am I to understand from your actions that it's deplorable except in reference to christians. Perhaps you should review your own sentiments my friend?

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
I think that you believe that the problem relates to one religion, Islam.

No...just a large chunk of Islam. You could say "just a particular denomination of Islam".

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
There may be more hard line clerics in Islam than in the Western religions, and their power is increasing with every provocative step that we, the West, take."

They've been increasing regardless of the steps we've taken.

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
Your words suggest to me that you view Muslims as lesser beings - incorrect, misguided, violent, unempathetic. I do not think that you have travelled much in Muslim countries, nor met many Muslims.

No, my words are toward many of the Islamic governments of the world. Not to every Muslim....but sadly, to way too many muslims.

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
I am not going to try and go through the depths of your misunderstanding about every conflict, except to say that you put the US and Israel at the top of your list. Most of those wars were secular, with a religous dressing. It takes two to tango.

I am not sure I get what you're saying. To what are you referring. And how does Israel come into play? What makes you bring that into? Seems a bit anti-semitic? I don't think that's what you intended so if you could clarify. Thanks...

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
Your view of the Muslim world celebrating is not reflected in everyday people.

But is was for certain regions. And too many Muslims made their comments and similar rejoicings. And sadly, in America, very few Muslims came flat out and said it was wrong, there was no excuse for it. Sure we have issues to resolve but such acts are intolerable. Too few took that stance publicly or vocally.

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
Most of them have a very high regard for the US

Yes, I am aware that many in Iran feel such...and throughout the world. I believe most (80%+) simply want to live their lives, provide for their families, etc.

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
Many still resent the actions of the US, especially in regards to Israel and the oppression of the Palestinians

Sadly, I think both sides are too locked into their positions and fail to see the needs.

Where were the Jews to go? And if Israel restored the land to the 600,000 displaced Palestinians. Will the surrounding Arab nations restore the lands to the 500,000 Jews they displaced into Israel from the Arab countries with the intent to drive them all into the sea?

Can a Jew begin to care about a Palestinian child when his own people strap a bomb and send him out to die?

Can Israel not look more deeply into their recent past and extend mercy and treat the Palestinians more humanely?

One day I hope so...but sadly, it's not yet today.

Originally posted by "legalbeagle":
Please please try and argue that the Gitmo prisoners have their constitutional rights preserved!!

They DON'T have any Constitutional rights. Not citizens, not visitors in good standing.

Nor are they prisoners of war according to the Geneva accords.

They are, detainees....

"Like throughout Eastern Europe in the last two decades?"
[Never would have happened if not for the Cold War. Action had to be taken. Likewise...it's being taken now.]

Are you saying people should vote in religious leaders or not
[I am saying people should vote, and it does not matter whether the leader is religious or not.

Do you think all of GWB's votes came from religious? Nope, they came from many people not religious. There were even Muslims who voted for Bush. Partly because they lean closer to his moral views.
]

"He is a very right wing Christian."
[So...right wing christians are nothing but normal christians 50 yrs ago.]

"You do not allow religion to be used in the Iraq elections as an electioneering tool, nor overtly religious candidates to stand, so why is it allowed in the US?"
[If I recall, there were quite a few religious candidates. In fact, there are several parties in Iraq with strong religious ties. A few of which were some of the largest vote winners. So I am curious where this comes from?]

"And the abstinence campaign is another example. Christian objectives, not politically motivated attempts to distribute aid fairly, nor teach science accurately."
[Neither is abortion. Or they would use such things as "it's just part of my body" cause it's not. It's been scientifically disproved. You can call it a parasite but it's not part of the mother's body. It's got a unique DNA code that neither matches the mother nor father but does meet the requirements genetically for a human being.]

See you look at the right as extreme. Because you look from your position. From left the right seems far. And vice versa.


07/08/2005 03:51:32 PM · #111
"The only way to end all war,
is to end all diversity."

That's what I believe.
 07/08/2005 03:53:31 PM · #112
Or the reverse:

The only way to end all war is to become tolerant to the nth degree.
 07/08/2005 04:03:01 PM · #113
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Or the reverse:

The only way to end all war is to become tolerant to the nth degree.


....and tolerate the Infidels????

NEVER!!!

Question: How do you logically fight illogic?
 07/08/2005 04:07:42 PM · #114
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Or the reverse:

The only way to end all war is to become tolerant to the nth degree.


....and tolerate the Infidels????

NEVER!!!

Question: How do you logically fight illogic?


There in lies the challenge.
 07/08/2005 04:08:00 PM · #115
Laurielblack and theSaj.

Thank you. I have a hard time expressing myself and both of you are doing a fine job! God Bless America
 07/08/2005 04:37:46 PM · #116
You people are amazing.

It is unbelievable, theSaj, the fervor with which you spread hatred.

Why do you expect anyone sharing the same background (racial, religious, etc.) with the terrorists to first stand up and denounce terrorism. That is not only wrong, but is based on the fundamentally wrong premise that all Muslims are the enemies and that all Muslims would bomb us only if they could.

And what was that about anti-Semites? Someone criticizes Israel, and you call them anti-Semites? You bash 25% (give or take few percent) of the world population, and there is nothing wrong with it?

We are discussing here, please try to be objective and reasonable.

For example, you have never addressed my question about relating war in Yugoslavian republics and Islam? How does that relate?

The reason I ask this is to try to point out to you that whatever your source of information is, it is deeply biased and far from the actual reality as it can be. If I can show you how wrong you are in that case, maybe you'll rethink the rest.

And do not expect others that you put in the same classification as terrorists to prefix every statement they make in casual conversations and public statements with "We are sorry for what the terrorists are doing, we are not agreeing with them."

Or, start every post you make here with "I am disgusted with the neo-Nazi policies in Europe in 1930s and 1940s, although Christians, I am not like them."

Looking forward to reading your explanation of the Yugo. war.

edit for spelling

Message edited by author 2005-07-08 16:49:16.
 07/08/2005 04:58:28 PM · #117
Laurie, whilst I don't agree with all your viewpoints, I want to say how beautifully expressed I found your post to be. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

One line in the song you quoted struck me as sad, however:

"If you don't love it, leave it"

One of the things I love about democracy is the fact that it presents us with a way to change what we do not love about our countries to make them even better. To suggest that someone who does not think every single aspect of their country is absolutely perfect has no place living there and should leave is a terribly sad and misguided (in my opinion) viewpoint.

Just choosing a single example here but, what if those who were against slavery had all just left rather than fought to change that aspect of law and life? Equality on racial grounds is one of those basic rights I can't imagine any of us arguing against. Would it have come about if people didn't fight to change the system from the inside? That's just a single example and I am sure there are many others that can be found in both our countries' histories.

If you don't love it, leave it? I don't think so.

07/08/2005 04:59:05 PM · #118
Originally posted by bcoble:
Laurielblack and theSaj.

Thank you. I have a hard time expressing myself and both of you are doing a fine job! God Bless America


Therein lies the greater problem perhaps...

Shouldn't it be, God Bless The World?
 07/08/2005 05:03:09 PM · #119
Originally posted by Kavey:


"If you don't love it, leave it"

One of the things I love about democracy is the fact that it presents us with a way to change what we do not love about our countries to make them even better.


Kavey that's well put and absolutely true.

Not only is it your right to question your government and it's leaders, it is your absolute duty to do so.

I for one, not only distrust many of our leaders but I do not believe they are nearly the best qualified to guide our country, intelligebly or honestly. There's only one thing that protects us in fact, from their heavy handed incompetence and that is the Constitution and elements of that today are in jeopardy.

Message edited by author 2005-07-08 17:29:58.
 07/08/2005 05:11:34 PM · #120
Maybe y'all missed my winky smiley or something...but that song is a twangy, overt, and very old country song by Merle Haggard, written in the early 70's about the Vietnam war protests. I was poking a bit of fun at my own redneck roots and my soapbox soliloquy. Guess I should have made that smiley in bold or something.
07/08/2005 05:24:20 PM · #121
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Maybe y'all missed my winky smiley or something...but that song is a twangy, overt, and very old country song by Merle Haggard, written in the early 70's about the Vietnam war protests. I was poking a bit of fun at my own redneck roots and my soapbox soliloquy. Guess I should have made that smiley in bold or something.


That's a lot to ask a smiley to convey! :oP I saw the smiley but still assumed the song contained values you were trying to express. :o)
 07/08/2005 05:32:36 PM · #122
Laurie, Perhaps we should send Kavey a Merle Haggard CD or sumtin' ;)

Now, that would be a culture shock.
 07/08/2005 05:33:59 PM · #123
He he he. I'll hold you to that, just for the entertainment value!

07/08/2005 06:38:18 PM · #124
Originally posted by srdanz:
You people are amazing.

It is unbelievable, theSaj, the fervor with which you spread hatred.



I normally stay as far away from political/religous debates as possible....I have not done much research to back up any particular view. Call me apathetic...I don't think I am but some might. Mostly I get confused...there are so many different reports, news and otherwise that have so much emotion filling them that the facts get lost difference of opinions sometimes. I like history...it's much less emotional and passionate in certain ways (but still not without slant). I agree with lots of point from lots of different places I don't really follow any prescribed point of view...my views are mine and unique to me. I can say I have found this thread informative and interesting. I like reading of the opnions and views of others....everyone is different and intersting. I agree with lots of the different opinions expressed by many here but not all of them by any one person. I had not read the Letter to America from Osama previously and am glad it was posted here.

I will have to say after reading the entire thread that I have NOT gotten the feeling of expressed HATRED from any of the posts by theSaj or others. Just huge differences of opinion/view and passionately expressed wich is to be expected since every single person here has a different background and influences.

I would like to see the debate continue and views expressed as it does help me in forming and reforming my own opinions and views; as I do constantly with all information and will all my life.

For those in the UK, I'm sorry the terrorism bombings happened...OK to be honest, for those worldwide I'm sad for any plight and horrific action against humanity/life anywhere. I certainly remember very clearly, even being far removed from New York, all my doings and feelings on the morning of 9/11...right down to hitting the snooze button on my alarm clock. The first time my alarm went off all was normal and happy on the Public radio station the second time, chaos. I may have continued on into work but there was a numbness and we all just watched TV in disbelief (including the boss after finally locating his brother via cell phone on the Manhatten bridge)

for the record, I am for space, medical and energy exploration, especially alternatives to oil. I don't consider myself a liberal or christian. I love animals and maybe talk to my pets too much, hate conflict and being preached to. I have moderately conservative values, good ethics, I'm logical 3/4 of the time, can say really stupid things (maybe my participation in this thread is one..we'll see if I end up with my foot in my mouth yet again!) come from an educated family and have a tendancy to speak without thinking at times. One of my biggest drives is taking good pictures AND documenting things that interest me. a camera is my preferred tool and so far DPC has broadened my horizons and not just photographically!
 07/08/2005 08:45:50 PM · #125
What the hell : Foxnews
another jewel

Message edited by author 2005-07-08 20:53:53.
Pages:  
Current Server Time: 03/12/2025 07:04:00 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 03/12/2025 07:04:00 PM EDT.