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07/07/2005 10:43:14 AM · #1 |
from London Terrorthread...
Originally posted by crank2o:
Originally posted by Makka:
This sort of thing is happening in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday and it doesn't get as much coverage! What is the difference I ask? |
The difference is that these people are willing to kill themselves to kill civilians. |
This is supposed to stay out of rant. [rant]But I wondered how many others cringed at Bush's statement damning the killing of tens of innocent civilians, when over 100 thousand innocent civilians have died recently in Iraq. [/rant]
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07/07/2005 10:51:54 AM · #2 |
| I agree! Unfortunately you have to look at both sides! This is a so called "war" in my opinion that can not be won with current foreign policies! There is too much hatred created on both sides now! Unfortunately what both sides do is kill 1000's of innocent people in the process! |
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07/07/2005 11:00:05 AM · #3 |
Agreed that the "war" is so-called. That is because there is no tangible enemy: at least not one that we can attack. Attacking a third country, militarily or by other means, is to lose sight of the fact that the terrorists cannot be strongly related to any one country. All we do is breed further resentment and cause the body count to go much higher.
As with all these things, the bodies of the non-Westerners are disregarded or given a lower value in comparison to theose of Westerners. Thus the Israeli revenge attacks for Palestinian acts always results in at least twice as many Palestinian as Israeli deaths. In Iraq, the tens of thousands and maybe one hundred thousand civilian deaths are disregarded, while 1,000 USA soldiers (and hundreds of European soldiers) is the oft-repeated reason for withdrawal.
Is it any wonder that the West has a bad reputation in the Middle East, and parts of the East and Africa, when the nation states in which we live have policies that hold non-Westerners in such low regard?
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07/07/2005 11:17:24 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Agreed that the "war" is so-called. That is because there is no tangible enemy: at least not one that we can attack. Attacking a third country, militarily or by other means, is to lose sight of the fact that the terrorists cannot be strongly related to any one country. All we do is breed further resentment and cause the body count to go much higher.
As with all these things, the bodies of the non-Westerners are disregarded or given a lower value in comparison to theose of Westerners. Thus the Israeli revenge attacks for Palestinian acts always results in at least twice as many Palestinian as Israeli deaths. In Iraq, the tens of thousands and maybe one hundred thousand civilian deaths are disregarded, while 1,000 USA soldiers (and hundreds of European soldiers) is the oft-repeated reason for withdrawal.
Is it any wonder that the West has a bad reputation in the Middle East, and parts of the East and Africa, when the nation states in which we live have policies that hold non-Westerners in such low regard? |
Disregarded??? By whom? I will not justify war, but it almost sounds as if you are justifying tyranny. What of the half million bodies found in mass graves dug upon Saddam's orders? Do we merely click our tongues at that and say, "Pity. Someone should really do something about that."
And are you implying that coalition forces are targeting civilians in Iraq? |
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07/07/2005 11:23:31 AM · #5 |
| I never knew Sadam was a terrorist? When did that come into it? That's something different again! |
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07/07/2005 11:25:57 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by Makka:
I never knew Sadam was a terrorist? When did that come into it? That's something different again! |
Saddam was a tyrant, which is the point RonBeam made.
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07/07/2005 11:26:08 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by Makka:
I never knew Sadam was a terrorist? When did that come into it? That's something different again! |
Perhaps you will be apprised of his brand of terrorism during his trial. Follow it closely. |
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07/07/2005 11:29:59 AM · #8 |
An interesting & pertinent article
I'm not going to comment too extensively on this whole scenario, I don't feel like entering into any manner of political discussion, mostly because I end up feeling disillusioned by what I perceive to be true (whether I'm correct or not is another matter).
Hope you find that article interesting-
Alex
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07/07/2005 11:32:17 AM · #9 |
| So in that case, if we don't particularly agree with how someone is running a country we should all go in and blow crap out of it? Hey, Robert Mugabi isn't doing a very good job at the moment! Let's go blast Zimbabwe off the map! Or maybe we should supply him with weapons first so he can have a war with his neighbours and THEN say tut tut, you're being a bad boy and blow them away? Fair enough Saddam was a totally insane dictator and killed many innocents, but I don't believe going in all gun-ho is the answer. More people are dying today in Iraq than ever! The country has gone to shit! |
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07/07/2005 11:33:42 AM · #10 |
I don't think anyone disregards innocent lives, not matter what country they are from. Nobody likes to see innocent people die. However with war, it has always been and will always be unnavoidable. A terrible cost that is not taken lightly by anyone.
Someone on another thread made a comment suggesting that we are the creators of this violence because we are now in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we should all pull out and leave them to their own lives. Yet 9-11 happened before we were in those two countries.
And if you're going to start the argument that we started it because we have military in Saudi Arabia, the poor excuse that bin laden likes to use, let us not forget that the Saudis and Kuwait were MORE than happy to have us come there and help them fight Iraq. We were invited. Muslim extremists do NOT have the right to make decisions for the entire Muslim world.
And if you want to talk about invading soil, LONG LONG LONG before 9-11 or even the first Iraqi war, extremists muslims have been setting up mosques all over Europe and preaching hatred against the very countries that host them. If you do not believe that is true, stick your head back in the sand and sing a happy little song to yourself.
Ignoring a problem or pretending it does not exist does not make it go away. Don't beleive their propoganda crap about how everyone will all be safe if only we pull out of Iraq. Terrorists cells have existed in your very countries LONG before 9-11.
We think in short time spans. The very countries we fought with 60 years ago are our best friends today. 20 years after WW2, men who had once fought in the skies against the Mitsubishi Zero were buying Mitsubishi cars for their families! We forgive and forget.
Our enemies think in terms of centuries, even millenia. They fight over things that happened 1000 years ago, 500 years ago. It's a whole different mind-set we can't understand. But we better start trying.
WHEW! Now you all hate me!
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07/07/2005 11:37:02 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by Makka:
So in that case, if we don't particularly agree with how someone is running a country we should all go in and blow crap out of it? Hey, Robert Mugabi isn't doing a very good job at the moment! Let's go blast Zimbabwe off the map! Or maybe we should supply him with weapons first so he can have a war with his neighbours and THEN say tut tut, you're being a bad boy and blow them away? Fair enough Saddam was a totally insane dictator and killed many innocents, but I don't believe going in all gun-ho is the answer. More people are dying today in Iraq than ever! The country has gone to shit! |
Yes, talking with Hitler worked wonders too. See, usually these tyrannical dictators and murderers are VERY open to sitting down for friendly chats just like you and me. In fact, If I'm not mistaken, didn't Hitler to go to London to meet with the leaders of the free world for tea and crumpets?
No wait, I'm sorry, he was invading Poland and mowing people down with machine guns. |
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07/07/2005 11:41:41 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by rscorp:
And if you want to talk about invading soil, LONG LONG LONG before 9-11 or even the first Iraqi war, extremists muslims have been setting up mosques all over Europe and preaching hatred against the very countries that host them. If you do not believe that is true, stick your head back in the sand and sing a happy little song to yourself. |
And American policy with Israel has gone on long before 9-11! A lot of extremist talk is regarding this! As you say, this hatred has been round longer than we can imagine! You poke a cat in the eye for long enough eventually it will take a swipe at you!
And no, I don't hate you! There are many many opinions that everyone has! My opinion is that unfortunately our countries have continually interfered with other countries too much for too long! Foreign policies suck and no we are all going along for the ride! How can something like this ever end? |
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07/07/2005 11:44:37 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Makka:
So in that case, if we don't particularly agree with how someone is running a country we should all go in and blow crap out of it? Hey, Robert Mugabi isn't doing a very good job at the moment! Let's go blast Zimbabwe off the map! |
Actually I think the case for removing Mugabe from power is just as strong as the one for removing Saddam from power, but because the population is black and predominantly Christian it wouldn't play as well for the folks back home. Oh, and the oil of course... |
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07/07/2005 11:46:44 AM · #14 |
I don't hate you. Most terrorist are misguided youths that have been educated by the church because the country's economy can't or prefers not to pay for proper schooling. what you get is a bunch of frustrated young adults and adolecents schooled in church doctrine and no real marketable skills. Our greed and arrogance doesn't help but is not an excuse. I am often in garden city NY, a city in Long Island that lost many people in the collapse of the world trade center towers. There is no just war but the people and governments responsible for this must be brought to answer...And Saddam??? Who here would've liked to live under his rule?????? I didn't think so. God bless America and Great Britain. Where liberty and freedom reign!! and the price is high. But in light of the alternative, I'd be willing to pay
Message edited by author 2005-07-07 11:48:51.
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07/07/2005 11:50:10 AM · #15 |
Let me ask you this in all seriousness. Do you believe that Israel was not the original location of the Jews? Yes, they were given back their "country" after the war, but do you beleive the Muslim view that the Jews don't belong there at all or have no claim to that area?
Also, ask yourself why "Palestinians" REFUSED to be even CALLED Palestinians until I believe the late 1960's when they realized there was political advantage in doing so. Read your history. They were a loosely formed group of people. When they were referred to as Palestinians, they were PISSED. Then when they saw it would appear as if they were a united group and this could further their cause to gain territory, they conveniently adopted it.
I for one beleive none of those two groups are 100% right but let's not start thinking that the Jews have no claim to Israel.
Research that fact about "Palestine", it's interesting reading.
And I agree, I'd like to see our countries focus on our own problems too, unfortunately this is now one problem that is not going to go away simply by "leaving" a certain country. That is not their ultimate goal and never was. |
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07/07/2005 11:53:59 AM · #16 |
| And hey! Let's waste $330 million dollars by flying a piece of metal into a comet! WTF is that all about? What a waste! Maybe another form of Star Wars defence? Sheesh! Why not invest it in a way to help these countries in some form or another? Doesn't Bush have to approve these missions? |
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07/07/2005 12:07:38 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Makka:
How can something like this ever end? |
It doesn't.
Thousands of years of history in both civilized and uncivilized cultures, war has been waged. For territory, for wealth/resources, slave labor, religion, greed, and numerous other reasons or catalysts.
At times it has been formal and regimented and at others it has been ad hoc, hit and run, and quite terroristic in its principles. BUT, it has been with us throughout this worlds history.
It will continue, untill.........
Which is precisely why YOU need to assess your "side". You will be on a side regardless of whether you want to or not. Either you will side with the jihad against the west, or you will side with the west. Should you choose to support the jihad against the west, either by actively engaging in armed conflict or by sympathizing with those who are engaged in it, then you will be rewarded(should they prevail), with an execution as an infidel or forced into slave labor. Should you choose to side with the west's attempt to address the terrorist jihad against it and the west fails, then you will be rewarded with an execution as an infidel or forced into slave labor. Either way, if the west looses, you loose.
Of course, the other option is to send the jihadist's a letter explaining how you are different, how empathetic you are to their cause, how you feel their pain, and how terribly mistreated they have been throughout history, and how you would like them to forgive you for your ancestors and countrymen's immoral acts. This would surely hold high esteem in your favor, to which if they win, would earn you an execution as an infidel or forced into slave labor.
I do not see much grey area in combat, just the politics behind it.
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07/07/2005 12:19:08 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by rscorp:
Let me ask you this in all seriousness. Do you believe that Israel was not the original location of the Jews? |
So we can assume that the Native American nations will be restored forthwith?
I'm not supporting either side, but the argument of "well they were there at some point in history" is facile. |
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07/07/2005 12:23:54 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by ganders:
Originally posted by rscorp:
Let me ask you this in all seriousness. Do you believe that Israel was not the original location of the Jews? |
So we can assume that the Native American nations will be restored forthwith?
I'm not supporting either side, but the argument of "well they were there at some point in history" is facile. |
Indeed. |
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07/07/2005 12:25:55 PM · #20 |
Of course with the casino operations on many of the reservations, the local communities are essentially "owned" by the local tribes now. Withh more territorial acquisitions forthcoming.
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07/07/2005 12:30:18 PM · #21 |
| My question is how many democratic countries kill there own people and threaten their neighbors? We as people should encourage other countries to support this philosophe (spelling opps). Sadamm needed to go! It is a ugly job, someone has to do it. Perhaps we should just let them terrorize there own people, there neighbors and the rest of us. Something has to change. Ignoring it will not resolve the issues. We cannot let Iraq go back to the extremist! Stability in that part of the world should be top priority. I am very disappointed in many countries attitudes to there lack of support yet they will be right up front to receive the benefits. Just my thought. |
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07/07/2005 12:31:45 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Which is precisely why YOU need to assess your "side". You will be on a side regardless of whether you want to or not. Either you will side with the jihad against the west, or you will side with the west.... |
Originally posted by George W. Bush:
You are either with us or against us
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I see where you come from. I won't speak of the current war - as it cannot be discussed while the blood from all sides in conflict is still flowing on the ground.
However, nothing in this world can be viewed as black or white. The issue of pouring salt in your soup isn't simple - too little or too much and it tastes poorly. Just the right amount and you'll enjoy.
How can you make such a claim about the war, where hundreds of thousands of people are involved, all doing their own thing. Some are following the leaders, and most are trying to get the best out of it. The people in the war behave differently, the animal side of humanity is exposed and the behaviours are not something that anyone would be ready to stand behind blindly without thinking about it.
Or are we?
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07/07/2005 12:42:54 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
How can you make such a claim about the war |
Let me try to state this simply; Should the Jihadist's against the west win, then you will be executed as an infidel or forced into salve labor. Your women will be without rights and owned as property.
If you support this vision, then you should side with the jihadist's against the west. If you do not support this vision, then you might consider the consequence of remaining too long in the undecided column.
It does seem a bit like either you are for us or aginst us, doesn't it?
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07/07/2005 12:52:32 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by rscorp:
Let me ask you this in all seriousness. Do you believe that Israel was not the original location of the Jews? Yes, they were given back their "country" after the war, but do you beleive the Muslim view that the Jews don't belong there at all or have no claim to that area? |
I happen to be a Native American Indian. My tribe was from an area that is now known as Sparta New Jersey.
AND I WANT ALL MY LAND BACK!!!
Will that be ok with you?
...just kidding
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07/07/2005 12:53:48 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Of course with the casino operations on many of the reservations, the local communities are essentially "owned" by the local tribes now. Withh more territorial acquisitions forthcoming. |
And living next to a reservatoin with a casino, i can say that is true. While many in my town live on land the Cherokee used to, the casinos they run own the houses and cars of those people. but, i suppose that is ireelevant to the discussion at hand. |
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