DPC Mentorship - B&W Photography

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

07/11/2005 04:44:42 PM · #26

Thanks for letting me in! :D

Okay, I don't do nearly enough b&w, but I would love to do more. I first fell in love with the timelessness of them when I received my first signed photo done by Clyde Butcher as a gift, about 12 years ago.

Living in Florida, I think our landscape just lends itself to b&w.

As for calibration, until my HDD is fixed on PC, I'm using laptop, and have been fighting calibration with it.

I'll start to look through everyone's images. :)
-Christine

Falc

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

07/11/2005 10:46:36 PM · #27

Hi Guys,
Sorry I'm late, I'm currently in India on business and have limited access to DPC. I'll be back in theUK at the weekend and get back into the saddle.

First of all thanks to Muckpond for agreeing to take on the mentorship of this group, I'm sure we will all learn a lot from him and from each other.

OK a little about me by way of introduction.
I'm 44 years old and work in the software businees, I'm an integration specialist designing IT integration strategies for large Healthcare organisations. My remit is worldwide so I get to travel quite a bit on business and always have my camera with me.
I'm an ex-mountaineer having himalayan expedition experience back in the 80's, and recently just gained my PADI Advanced Open Water Diving ticket, so you can see I like the outdoors.

I live in South Yourkshire, UK (Gods own County), and when I do go to the office in Manchester drive through the glorious Peak District National Park. I get to see the Park in all weathers and all temperaments twice a day. So expect many of my images to come from this wonderful part of the world.

I've been into photography this second time around for about 3-4 years but really only got serious in the last 18 months - 2 years.

So Monochrome - why am I interested in this group?
Well for me mono work is like reading a book as opposed to watching a film. The structure and form are provided, but it allows the viewer to add something of thier own to an image. They are free to allow the mind to add a colour scheme of their own. I guess it makes the viewer think a little about what they are looking at and not just accept the pretty picture on face value. Its always felt like the 'artistic' end of photography to me. I want to nurture that side learn alongside the group, helping each other as we go.

I'm hoping that with the guidance of Muckpond we can help each other to 'see' the art of black and white.

Glad to be aboard, now I'd better go back and read the thread, Muckpond tells me he's already set a task for us ;-)

Falc

Falc

Canon EOS-1D Mark III

Canon EF 16-35mm f/2.8L USM

07/11/2005 11:05:30 PM · #28

Here's my first submission. Taken a couple of weeks ago early in the morning (6:30am) whilst crossing the Waterloo Jubilee Footbridge in London. I got up early because I wanted the light from the left of the image to be low angled and provide some additional form to the image.

Taken with the 100-400 lens to compress the feeling of depth. Desaturated in PS.

07/12/2005 05:02:07 PM · #29

hi! sorry it's been a while. i've not yet commented on all of the photos that you guys have posted, but i will do that soon. i just wanted to keep things moving. so, with that in mind:

step 2: selection

part of me wants to say that "any" photograph can be in black and white (which is true...you can convert anything). but, really, not all SHOULD.

the qualities of a black and white image are such that the lack of color forces the user to focus on the other aspects of the photograph: namely shapes, shadows, and contrasts. for sure there are other "expected" uses for b/w, like journalism and historic shots, but we're going to focus more on "arty" black and white shots -- shots that could either be in color or b/w.

because we're essentially REMOVING the color from a shot, it makes sense that the shots we convert are those that aren't very color-dependent. i'm really glad that tristalisk posted the comparison shots of the sunset. he prefers the color shot and that's perfectly ok. why is the color shot preferable? mostly because a sunset or sunrise shot is pretty much all about the color of the sky. sure there's landscape and other stuff in there, but without the color of the sky is it a very exciting photograph?

rule #1
not every photograph is better in black and white. (gasp! blasphemy!)

so, with that in mind, let's talk about some general categories of shots that work well in black and white. this is just a list off of the top of my head -- i'd really like to hear you guys comment on this and adding anything in that i forget:

architecture
portraiture (especially for shots with lots of shadows and people with nice face shapes)
nudes
images with strong shapes
street shots/urban shots
anything with high contrast
shots with which you would really like to convey a mood (i.e. sher's cemetery shots)
tools/industrial "gritty" shots (like many of BradP's)
chrome

REMEMBER: these are not hard-and-fast rules. these are just to grease your wheels and get you thinking.

shots that might NOT be suited for black and white are those that are really color dependent or those where a viewer would almost expect to see some color or the impact of the photo comes from the color itself. some examples of shots that are maybe better in color:

sunset/sunrise
flowers (not all -- single b/w portraits of flowers are often gorgeous (like admart01's), but flowers in their natural setting might be better in color)
fruits and vegetables
foods in general (gray foods are really not that appetizing. they CAN be, but not often.)
people shots with dramatic coloring (i.e. redheads in green clothes.)
action shots with long blurs (streaking race cars need color for impact and to differentiate them from the background)

rule #2
make it look how YOU want it to look.

so. where does that leave us?

i'm going to finish commenting on the shots so far. there are a bunch of really gorgeous samples here (which makes me wonder what you can learn from me - lol). i am also going to start writing up step 3 -- converting photos to black and white. this is where the magic is going to happen. i'm going to go through a few techniques that i use and some that i've stumbled across and have wanted to try but haven't yet.

i would really like you guys to go through and comment on the shots posted so far. then please post a color shot of yours that you think would make a nice black and white based on the ideas above. this should be a shot that is mostly straight outta the camera, maybe cropped a bit. no levels, dodging, sharpening, or anything yet. i would like to use these shots while talking about the converting and processing so they should be as raw as possible. and i'd like for us all to practice on each other's too.

thanks for sticking with this so far! this is really fun!

rob

Message edited by author 2005-07-12 17:04:26.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

07/12/2005 05:11:30 PM · #30

one thing i forgot to say (and reading another post from tristalisk made me remember) is:

hey -- it's perfectly fine to use black and white to "save" what is otherwise a stinker of a photo, even if it doesn't fit in one of the categories i mentioned. that's part of the reason i got into black and white in the first place -- i kept screwing up the color.

i'm rehabbing a 100+ year old house. when i bought it, it was kind of a dump. i mean, it was structurally sound but it was overgrown, had awful siding, and every single room inside was green. BUT it had GREAT bones and lots of potential. slowly, it's coming back together.

if you've got a photo that has great "bones" (dramatic lighting with good shadows, strong shapes, solid contrast, etc.) but the color is just not quite there, often it's fun to give it a whirl in b/w to see what you can make of it. if the structure is solid, you can sometimes bring out a really great photo.

but remember too: sometimes a stinker is just a stinker. :) i know -- i've got plenty of 'em.

aboutimage

Canon EOS-30D

07/12/2005 05:44:51 PM · #31

I hope you all don't mind: I'm probably just going to "lurk" and watch you. I'm trying to run two simultaneous commerical graphic design projects now (new clients) and I may not have enough time to devote to "full-time" involvement in the group. I don't want to drop out, as I LOVE black and white - would it be OK if I just kinda hang out and watch your progress?

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

07/12/2005 05:54:11 PM · #32

no. get out.

i kid! lurk all you want! you just didn't want me pickin' on your photos. ;)

tfaust

Canon EOS 80D

07/12/2005 06:02:07 PM · #33

I'm really late! First: Thanks Muckpond for mentoring this group. :-)

Second: My introduction - My name is Tina Faust, I live in Arizona with my husband, 2 dogs and a cat. Both dogs are fantastic models because they listen and stay when told, plus they are cute. :-)

I've always had some sort of interest in photography and my first camera was a 110 when I was a kid. I can't recall ever having an SLR... I actually took a back seat to taking photographs for a number of years and then picked it back up again (seriously) with the purchase of my first digital camera, the Sony S75. I used to think my advantix camera was cool until we bought the Sony. Anyway - all of a sudden the world opened up for me again. The Sony had a b/w mode, but I quickly learned I didn't ever want to use it since PP could do it for me and I would still have a color version.

Moving on... Just in the last few months I've really noticed a desire to produce more b/w images - I'm just not sure quite where to go with it. I know the image needs to have quite a bit of contrast to make a good b/w. As far as PP goes, Setzler just recently taught me about channel mixing to create my b/w's which is a fantastic little tool. Other than that - I don't really know anything else.

In my other life, I'm a full time Realtor, so if I delay in responses and such it's just because of a really busy day. Sometimes I work from 6am to 8pm and sometimes I work from 10am to 3pm. I never know from day to day.

Also, one of my favorite photographers is Ansel Adams - as far back as I can remember I've always admired his work. I have no formal training in the arts, and up until that Sony never knew I had a lick of it in me. More recently I met my birth family (I was adopted) and found out my Grandfather was an artist, he painted (oils and watercolor I believe).

Now for a photo:

This is one of my lower scoring duo-tones (while not truly b/w), but it was an attempt at a rescue from overexposure. Thought (and still do) that this is typical of what I would expect from an old time photo shot back in the 1800's.

However, a higher scoring true b/w is this one:

I will get to commenting on the other photos later this afternoon/evening. :-)

Balko

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/12/2005 07:30:01 PM · #34

Hi all :)
I was going through some shots to submit for prints (and yeaaahhh, I now have prints for sale) - but I have 2 more monos I can use here. that I really like. So feel free to post what could be better :)

07/12/2005 08:23:34 PM · #35

Originally posted by muckpond:

no. get out.

i kid! lurk all you want! you just didn't want me pickin' on your photos. ;)

*Laughs* Too funny, my first thoughts were, nope, lock the doors! ;-)

07/12/2005 08:50:29 PM · #36

Originally posted by muckpond:

step 1: calibrate your monitor.
*snipped*
this is a great starting point: the gray strip. take a look at the images here and ensure you can see a definite distinction between the different shades of gray. you don't have to have fancy calibration software!! there are a billion free ways to calibrate your monitor so that it is "good enough" for our purposes here.

Just had to say thank you! I am having to use my laptop right now, and I absolutely hate it, after working on CRT for 6 years.

But via the link you gave, I went to gettys and found great image to use to help calibrate, at least for me.

The image is huge but ever so worth it. I'll post link to resource page, because there is other information that is of use too! :)

Getty Images - Color Resources

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6

07/13/2005 12:19:52 AM · #37

Originally posted by Skyarcher:

Just had to say thank you!

woo hoo!

tristalisk

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

07/13/2005 08:02:15 AM · #38

Ok the home monitor is now calibrated. So Muckpond do you have our first project in mind yet?

Truegsht

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

07/13/2005 09:19:04 PM · #39

Been working late the past 2 days..but will get a color shot online tomorrow night for sure. Sorry for the delay...

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

07/14/2005 12:14:41 AM · #40

Originally posted by Kavey:

Everyone probably knows but just incase anyone doesn't, the quickest way to locate recently received comments is to go to your profile and use the Comments Received link.

Thanks for that tip Kavey! I never had looked at those, so didn't know what they were for. You just made my life sooooo much easier!

Appreciate it. :)
-Christine

aboutimage

Canon EOS-30D

07/14/2005 01:23:36 AM · #41

I wanted to thank everyone for the time you took to critique my still life photo. Some of you made some very insightful comments, and I've learned quite a bit from you.

Kavey

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC for Canon

07/14/2005 04:00:28 AM · #42

Muck, I have some thoughts on choices for black and white but I kind of need to put together some examples to illustrate them. I don't want to step on your toes as mentor but would it be OK for me to post my thoughts and associated images here for discussion?

Kavey

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC for Canon

07/14/2005 04:11:05 AM · #43

Originally posted by Skyarcher:

Originally posted by Kavey:
Everyone probably knows but just incase anyone doesn't, the quickest way to locate recently received comments is to go to your profile and use the Comments Received link.

Thanks for that tip Kavey! I never had looked at those, so didn't know what they were for. You just made my life sooooo much easier!
Appreciate it. :)
-Christine

You're welcome...

admart01

Canon EOS-20D

07/14/2005 08:28:48 AM · #44

Hello all -- saw Muckpond's request for a color shot -- I'm travelling on business until the weekend so I won't be posting one. I'll check back into the thread then and if there's still time, I'll upload one into my portfolio.

On a side note, I've enjoyed looking at the shots you're put up for review, the various comments and takes on images. There's a luxury in really studying a photo, especailly for one aspect like B&W that I don't give myself when voting.

07/14/2005 10:06:21 AM · #45

Originally posted by Kavey:

yes! absolutely please do! i really don't want this to be a one-way communication (i know that it has been a little bit so far).

i also have to apologize a bit. life here is so insanely crazy that i haven't been able to get back to this. i am determined to not let this group wither, but i hope we're ok with a more "relaxed" pace. :)

please post some color images when you have a chance. i'm typing up some stuff for the conversion process to B/W and then we'll move from there.

does anyone (besides kavey) have any other thoughts about appropriate b/w subjects?

Message edited by author 2005-07-14 10:06:41.

07/14/2005 02:28:13 PM · #46

I'm still trying to get to everyone's images that they put up, while doing classwork in between. :)

I would love, living in Florida, to do more landscape/nature/natural shots.

My inspiration to learn more about b/w comes from someone who does large format b/w, Clyde Butcher.

When I look at the images that he has done, to me, that is the real Florida. So much texture, amazing details and just reminds me of why I love living in this state that I was born in. :)

-Christine

Kavey

Sigma 18-125mm f/3.5-5.6 DC for Canon

07/14/2005 05:56:37 PM · #47

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by Kavey:
Muck, I have some thoughts on choices for black and white but I kind of need to put together some examples to illustrate them. I don't want to step on your toes as mentor but would it be OK for me to post my thoughts and associated images here for discussion?

yes! absolutely please do! i really don't want this to be a one-way communication (i know that it has been a little bit so far).

i also have to apologize a bit. life here is so insanely crazy that i haven't been able to get back to this. i am determined to not let this group wither, but i hope we're ok with a more "relaxed" pace. :)

please post some color images when you have a chance. i'm typing up some stuff for the conversion process to B/W and then we'll move from there.

does anyone (besides kavey) have any other thoughts about appropriate b/w subjects?

Actually, I'm really sorry. I was planning to do this today, if you agreed but I've been quite poorly for most of the day... in the end I went back to bed for the afternoon. Feeling much better now but... tomorrow we've visitors coming down in the morning, we're all going to see Queen and Paul Rodgers play and then on Saturday morning Pete and I go on holiday for 4 days. I'll have to put it off till I get back.

Basically what I was going to talk about was looking at a scene (which is of course in colour, as the world is) and being able to understand how colours translate into black and white tones. Some colours contrast massively IN COLOUR but convert to almost identical grey tones when the image is rendered in black and white. Understanding this is essential to visualising how a scene translates to black and white before even taking it and I was going to find some colour examples and black and white conversions plus a colour wheel if I can get one to illustrate all this. The other thing I was going to talk about was textures.

If anyone is interested in all this I can still do that when I get back?

07/14/2005 06:16:49 PM · #48

Originally posted by Kavey:

Glad to hear you are feeling better. :)

I know I am interested! And as I know how busy life gets, I look forward to whenever you can work this in.

-Christine

07/14/2005 06:20:13 PM · #49

Okay, I took, tfaust's cowboy image and while I had a minute, did just a little bit of editing.

I've set up gallery just for the group, so am sending you there. It may not be the best editing, and I still am not sure about calibration on my laptop, so, would love feedback as to whether I edited too dark, too light, etc. See if that will help me judge whether I got laptop color correct. :)

B/W Mentor Group Edit Gallery

I have put up the other images that I still want to give my hand at, just have not quite gotten to all of them yet.

-Christine

Truegsht