| Author | Thread |
|
|
08/11/2005 10:19:51 PM · #1 |
This is my attempt to 'raise the bar' on the Challenge aspect of DPChallenge.
Foreword: I AM a new AND registered user (have been considering becoming a paying Member but want to better understand the site first). I have 'researched' the evolution of this site and relative comments made in regard to the issues I am addressing here - yes they have been raised before. The layout/navigation/tools of the site is/are great (well done) - I am just seeking to understand the 'current consensus' of the majority. I wish this post could be anonymous, as may others who wish to voice their opinion, alas it is not. However, a Poll can be, and that is ultimately what I am proposing here.
As I understand it, 'in the beginning' the site was focussed strongly on competing in 'the Challenge' for the week. The site has changed quite a lot since then it seems. I put a lot of effort into meeting the Challenge (and I try in the compositional, technical etc aspects too of course). When I look through the submissions and see many who make no effort, or worse, submit a photograph that they WANT to 'show off' and try (or not even) to make it FIT the Challenge via the title, it 'ticks' me off. Not only is my time wasted by having to download, view and then vote on these submissions but it also puts the 'voting out of whack' for the legitimate entries. I know, I only have to vote on 20% - well, I like to vote on ALL, that is just me. As for 'commenting', I have been 'burned' no matter what I try or try not to do there and so will just do what I want when I want regarding my 'comments'. I actually wish all users were JUST numbers, and their photographs were judged on just that alone, a photograph. Why people have to bring in 'personal' issues, or political/social statements in this 'arena' - is beyond me. If I comment I comment on the photo, pure and simple. It is a GAME, a competition, a CHALLENGE. It is not a weekly free study or a place to show off your favourite photos (in the Challenge) - you can become a Member and put it in your portfolio if you want that, or yes post in the appropriate forum thread.
As far as the current Challenge 'Time Capsule' goes, part of the description is very clear - "your title should be the year". Not "your title should include the year", "your title should be the era", "your title should be the decade", etc. And as for the Circle Challenge, what is going to happen when there is a Spiral Challenge? 1st & 2nd WERE excellent photographs but were spirals primarily (DON'T take it personally). Then there was the Affluence Challenge, I DID expect to see a lot of 'riches' - MATERIAL WEALTH, as was stated in the description. If it was; "Wealth; give us your interpretation of wealth", then knock yourself out with your interpretation of 'wealth', but it was NOT, it was MATERIAL WEALTH. And yes I did try to 'emulate' material wealth but failed, but still I tried to Meet The Challenge. It is like playing a particular sport and someone on the opposing team (or worse on your own side) is making rules up as they go along or BENDING the rules - "oh I only took 6 steps what's the big deal?". The big deal IS, that it IS FUN when you WORK WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES you are given when playing a GAME!
I am not 'close minded' nor am I that 'A' word, I just like to play by the Rules. When I first joined here I thought 'GREAT idea' (still do hence this POST), a little 'challenge', you 'learn' as you go along and it is a game where you can compete. It may have been a coincidence but the first few Challenges I perceived as an underlying 'teaching' of textures, movement, etc etc. Things to look out for and bear in mind when taking photographs, to make your photographs better. As for the 'multi-cultural' aspect, that is all well and good but people have 'flocked' to DPChallenge for what it is/was?, don't they have to conform to that rather than DPChallenge conform to them? (YES this MIGHT include me if the answer to that is NO). That IS really what I am saying here.
In SUMMARY; Can we please have a poll with several 'questions' in it regarding 'Meeting The Challenge', and, IF the majority wants it, a RULE introduced regarding 'Meeting the Challenge'. It could go right on top of the 'Editing' Rules'. Yes there will ALWAYS be a little 'wiggle room', but keep it to a minimum by introducing a set of Rules / Guidelines for Meeting The Challenge and for 'reading' the description. Do not bend the rule or description to fit what YOU want to submit, bend what YOU want to submit to FIT THE CHALLENGE. If English is not your first language then get a good interpretation.
IF I am wrong here or under a misconception, OK - but IF the majority here would also like to see the site (remain?) a Challenge first and foremost, with the winners being the BEST PHOTOGRAPHS that FIT the Challenge (to a T) - rather than the 'best photographs submitted' (whether or not fitting the Challenge description) - 'voice' your opinion.
PS: I am NOT being 'rude' but please no PM's. 'Vocal' debate here IS the intent.
EDIT: tried to condense
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 06:35:31. |
|
|
|
08/11/2005 10:37:26 PM · #2 |
Ok let me say the obvious. I you really want to help this site then why not join it as a Member? That way you provide financial support to help keep it alive and evolving. Not that I'm ignoring your concerns as I do vote based on if a photo meets the challenge. I may still vote it high but never at the top if I think it does not.
Message edited by author 2005-08-11 22:37:57. |
|
|
|
08/11/2005 10:46:04 PM · #3 |
Alright, having read your entire post, I just have to say that I come to this conclusion:
You have given us, really, no objective or constructive feedback whatsoever. All you've really done is offer your personal, subjective viewpoint and opinions, particularily about individual challenges, but I don't see one thing that has anything to do with "raising the bar". A rule on "meeting the challenge"? Who, exactly, determines that? Will we have to get the SC to individually email everyone that someone deems to have "not met the challenge" and get their viewpoint and make a subjective decision? Not very bar raising, IMO.
Now... I know how frustrating this site can be, but you speak of "voice of the people" and evolution, and.. well, the voice of the people and the evolution are going on right now, and the things you're trying to rail against are the things that the voice of the people and the evolution of the site have given us.
The one thing that I can agree with is polling. I'd like to see more of it, certainly, but if the dozens of polls I've seen in my time here are any indication of.. it's that the current direction and makeup of the site, the challenges, the voting and everything else to do with it is here to stay.
|
|
|
|
08/11/2005 10:59:20 PM · #4 |
macrothing, I agree with you on this.
bending of rules is ok with me, but I find many are bending it a little too much. Soon, when everyone realize that rules can be bent to such an extent, they will bend it even more.
And you are dead on with the "circle" challenge results. Those are spirals, not circles, save one of the three.
I've found that voicing out on the forums usually wont bring any good results because the louder people are usually here, trying to bend minds of voters. I find it more fruitful to tackle these people (or photos) individually by leaving them HONEST comments on why you think the photo does not fit the challenge. Leave them an HONEST comment, and vote them as you see fit. Rebel groups usually work in silence. |
|
|
|
08/11/2005 11:17:28 PM · #5 |
Also, I would like to see a RULE introduced regarding 'Meeting the Challenge'. It could go right on top of the 'Editing' Rules'.
Thats not going to happen. So I would say adapting to the site is the better alternative to try changing the the site.
Message edited by author 2005-08-11 23:20:10. |
|
|
|
08/11/2005 11:32:05 PM · #6 |
If enough people vote their feelings, it will likely work itself out to an acceptable level. People who clearly don't "meet the challenge" will get lots of 1's, will complain, will be told to "sit down" by the people who voted, and then with either stop submitting or start submitting pictures which won't get all the 1's.
The cool thing about this method is it allows freedom of interpretation. If you think "outside the box", then you run the risk of being voted down, but sometimes those are the very pictures which attack the challenge in a fresh, creative way and win ribbons.
Perhaps it's just easier to have broader challenges. The last few, once the text of the challenge has been read, have been narrow. Affluence did say, "material wealth", Live Music does say to "find some live music to photograph". I'm sure we are going to have good pictures submitted which do not fit that requirement.
In the end, it's probably easiest just to ignore the chaff. Shoot for top 25 or something. By the time you get there you will have quality pictures which are on target...
BTW, as an example of how rules lawyerish you could get with the interpretation, your circle entry isn't truly a circle. It's round. Websters defines a circle as "a plane curve everywhere equidistant from a given fixed point". I'm sure you can agree those ants aren't all quite equidistant. What are you going to say when someone complains about your pic? Sure the spirals aren't circles, but neither are those ants. We often like to set the bar just below our feet. (and I do like your picture, and had I voted in that challenge would not have hesitated to give you a high score and considered the challenge "met"...)
Message edited by author 2005-08-11 23:36:25. |
|
|
|
08/11/2005 11:44:27 PM · #7 |
I really can't agree that quality of submissions has decreased that is very subjective and I personally don't agree with this.
I do agree on voting but still that is up to the site admin and owners to implement anything that is voted on. |
|
|
|
08/11/2005 11:46:34 PM · #8 |
| i think our votes will either encourage or discourage those who bend the rules on purpose? show them enough 1's and they will get the picture :p |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 12:08:03 AM · #9 |
I agree that the pictures should meet the challenge. I'm willing to bet that in the live music challenge there will be pictures that have nothing to do with live music. Probably even some flower pictures. If it meets the challenge, it gets a better vote. If it's not even close to the challenge requirements, then not so good a vote.
The reason I joined this site was due to the challenges. These challenges make me think about what to take. Overall I think this will make me better. And that's my goal, to get better. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 12:29:13 AM · #10 |
Holy Crap! You are taking this WAY too seriously. This is not a profession. It does not define you unless you allow it. A challenge is what you make of it, whether you value the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. Vote however you want to. Everyone else does.
Most importantly - Lighten Up. This site is the result of organic growth as guided and allowed by the administrators. It is a vibrant, healthy nexus to discuss photography, pets, and completely unrelated topics - and occasionally improve your pitcher takin' skills in the process. Its messy, and arguments break out like snakes on Whacking Day due to the wide variety of opinions.
If you want rigid order and 100% adherence to rules, then you are likely going to be disappointed. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 12:59:40 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by shadow:
i think our votes will either encourage or discourage those who bend the rules on purpose? show them enough 1's and they will get the picture :p |
Someone needs to step in and say that the topic of this thread (basically, "How can we encourage people to adhere more closely to the challenge description?") has NOTHING to do with rules. Meeting the challenge is a goal, not a rule.
Any discussion of somehow rigidly policing "topic relevance" to ensure that all toe the line is worse than absurd, it's downright fascist. There are so many cultures, races, and age groups represented in here that it's literally IMPOSSIBLE to draw that line fairly. In fact, I'd go so far as to say the problem is apposite to what's being described here; I'd say the site's showing evidence of a strong Western, Judeo-Christian cultural bias that is disenfranchising many of our players.
For example, in "material wealth" there were examples of water being used to symbolize wealth. Nobody had a hard time accepting gold, or even paper for that matter, as a symbol of wealth; but for much of the world water is absolutely priceless. There still exist in the world peoples who would not recognize, say, a thousand-dollar bill as having any value whatsoever. Why should not their POV be a valid interpretation of the challenge? Or how about the whole idea that to someone down-and-out material wealth beyond dreaming might be a clean bed to sleep in?
Not to be ranting, or anything, but if I dreamed of any change along these lines, it would be a general encouragement that voters use the voting experience as an opportunity to step outside their own personal boxes and see the world through others' eyes, which is (I think) what's great about a world-wide photography forum like this one. Why are so many people so determined to police our responses to the challenge, to make sure we are all orthodox? I don't feel the least threatened when people go out on a limb; I enjoy watching it.
It doesn't bother me at all that the more "universal" images (in the DPC context) win the prizes. I just wish people weren't so prone to going off on others who produce less universal images as a matter of choice & vision.
Robt.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 01:01:05.
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 01:02:24 AM · #12 |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 01:39:14 AM · #13 |
two quick comments -
First off imo the level of submissions has gone up dramatically over the years. Second off in defense of my 'spiral' shot in the circle challenge...
If you eliminate the z axis, it is a circle... a circle is a 2d object, the world around us is a 3d space. So if I were to go become a challenge description nazi (not saying you are one or advocate it) I would actually say the thrid place shot depicts cylinders not circles. The reason why it my shot is called unwind is that when a circle is taken through a linear z-axis it becomes a spiral. That is what my shot depicted, and aparently most voters who voted on it saw the connection to circle.
now for longer rant -
I think that having such a discussion is good. I personally dont agree with much you said. I feel that voters have been doing very well deciding individually what meets the challenge and what doesnt and each has a different approach to the matter at hand and a different response to a shot. I view photography as an art rather than a technical process, and as such there is no right or wrong. Each person brings a unique background and set of circumstances to the table. There was a thread a while ago celebrating the human diversity of DPC, really fascinating to look at it.
Imo challenge topics and guidelines serve as a weekly starting point, an inspiration if you will. Sometimes people go out of the box, but the best shots are always the ones that make you stop, forget the challenge wording even if for just a second, and you lose yourself in the photo.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 01:41:08.
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 03:50:08 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
There are so many cultures, races, and age groups represented in here that it's literally IMPOSSIBLE to draw that line fairly. |
and it's literally IMPOSSIBLE to vote on images in a way that pleases everyone
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 03:52:53. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 09:25:19 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Someone needs to step in and say that the topic of this thread (basically, "How can we encourage people to adhere more closely to the challenge description?") has NOTHING to do with rules. Meeting the challenge is a goal, not a rule. |
You make it sound like meeting the challenge is optional. Like it's a nice thing to do if it's conveinient, but ok to skip over if it's not conveinient. Instead of responding to the question "How can we encourage people to adhere more closely to the challenge description?" you seem to want to say we shouldn't try to encourage people to adhere more closely to the challenge description.
But I think you are wrong about that bear. Meeting the challenge is not a rule in the sense that your entry can be disqualified for failing to do so. But it is far more than a goal. It is mentioned in the rules.
Here's the sentence that appears in both Basic and Advanced.
"While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."
I think it is as much a rule as the prohibition against spot editing in Basic for example. It's just enforced by the voters instead of being enforced by the Site Council. IMHO, the voters don't enforce the rule regarding meeting the challenge very strictly, sometimes almost not at all. And I agree with macrothing, the original poster, that this lax enforcement works against the users who make an honest attempt to comply with it by submitting images that clearly fit the challenge.
macrothing has raised a legitimate concern that desreves a fair discussion. The challenges are supposed to be themed competitions. Images that do not meet the challenge should be penalized no matter how well done and/or creative they are. And it should be recognized that there are limits to what meets the challenge. People who take the position that any image can be explained into meeting any topic in the name of creativity are failing to recognize that the topic is intended to be limiting. The well done and/or creative images should be held to the same standard as the average images as far as meeting the challenge. Having a well done and/or creative image should not be a free pass allowing you to ignore meeting the challenge topic, or to address it in only some obscure, roundabout way.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 09:29:08.
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 09:36:22 AM · #16 |
| I completely agree with the first post, only I think that imposing a RULE would be impractical and impossible to implement. I'm astounded at the negativity and ferociousness of some of the replies to this quite reasonable opinion. That's the side of DPC that bugs me. I'd like to say in response to the post that I believe a monthly free challenge would allow members to get the shots they would otherwise shoehorn into a challenge out of their systems. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 09:39:08 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
And it should be recognized that there are limits to what meets the challenge. People who take the position that any image can be explained into meeting any topic in the name of creativity are failing to recognize that the topic is intended to be limiting. |
Those who adhere to the philosophy that only the narrowest, most obvious, direct approach to the challenge seem to be opposed to creative expression, and solely/mainly focused on the competitive aspect of the challenge rather than inspiring photographers to expand their creative vision.
If a challenge inspires someone to take a stunning photo, with only (in your mind) an oblique connection to the challenge, does that make it any less stunning a photo, or make you wish it hadn't been taken? Next you'll be wanting every photo in focus, or with a certain color scheme, or only 3:2 crop ratios.
Who cares? If it's a good photo, give it a good score. If you don't think it meets the challenge, say so and vote accordingly. But why not take just an extra five seconds to think about why the person submitted it if it has "nothing" to do with the challenge, and figure out what they had in mind--you might be surprised. But don't strain yourselves .... |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 09:49:09 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
But don't strain yourselves .... |
wouldn't want to get so stressed over DPC yyou got hemorroids.
heres a novel idea - if i dont understand an image, i say so!!! what a strange thing to do, oops no wait, that would be the *logical* thing to do. And here i was thinking that comment box and scale of one to ten was just there to look prudy. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 09:54:30 AM · #19 |
Way back in the beginning, shots could be dq'ed if they didn't meet hte challenge. That was a nightmare.
Very rarely do I find a shot that I cannot in some way see how it meets the challenge. One time, last fall, I entered a shot in the wrong challenge. It was completely off-topic, but before it was dq'ed (for other things) I had several comments suggesting ways it could meet the challenge. I was impressed (and amazed).
What totally confounds me may make perfect sense to everyone else. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 09:59:19 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If a challenge inspires someone to take a stunning photo, with only (in your mind) an oblique connection to the challenge, does that make it any less stunning a photo, ... |
No.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
... or make you wish it hadn't been taken? |
No.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you don't think it meets the challenge, say so and vote accordingly. But why not take just an extra five seconds to think about why the person submitted it if it has "nothing" to do with the challenge, and figure out what they had in mind--you might be surprised. But don't strain yourselves .... |
If I need to spend an extra five seconds, or five minutes, trying to figure out how an image meets the challenge, isn't that image meeting the challenge in a lesser way than one where the connection is apparent without the extra time? And therefore doesn't it deserve a lower vote than an otherwise equal quality entry with an obvious connection? Isn't that what is meant by "keep(ing) in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."?
|
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:07:08 AM · #21 |
Why do you consider offbeat, creative, ingenious, out-of-the-box solutions to be "lesser"?
I think that's one reason you get so much resistance to ideas like this, because people who feel that creativity is as an important photographic skill to develop as aperture control--and are willing to take chances in their exploration which may not always be "successful"--are treated condescendingly for their daring, and told that you taking a few seconds evaluating the photo is a waste of your time.
If you ask a class to write a paper, you can hope for each and every one to be lucidly-written and thoroughly researched, but I wouldn't expect it. Does that mean that everyone whose paper fails that standard should just give up and not turn in their paper? Or should they turn in the best they can do and see what the teacher thinks? |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:08:22 AM · #22 |
It is a widely held fallacy that technical freedom results in more artistic creativity. In almost any form of art, imposing limits results in MORE creativity. This site is apparently about helping people improve their photography. Meeting a challenge is all about achieving that aim.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 10:09:03. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:09:07 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
If I need to spend an extra five seconds, or five minutes, trying to figure out how an image meets the challenge, isn't that image meeting the challenge in a lesser way than one where the connection is apparent without the extra time? And therefore doesn't it deserve a lower vote than an otherwise equal quality entry with an obvious connection? Isn't that what is meant by "keep(ing) in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."? |
No.
I've missed the point of a few photos (and unlike most people here im okay with saying that ~i think THAT is the real problem~ and on saying it someone has explained it and it turns out it was my own stupidity, and not the fault of the photographer at all that i didn't get it. Maybe everyone should consider that for a moment. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:19:25 AM · #24 |
I would rather see well done creative images that many perceive to not meet the challenge than images taken whos only purpose is to meet the challenge. If an image cannot stand on its own without the challenge topic near at hand, what's the point?
I will admit that I have submitted images that meet the challenge and have no value otherwise. I have also been 'outside the box' to voters. I am trying hard to no longer submit images that just 'meet the challenge' but I will continue to stretch my definitions of challenge topics.
To state there is ONLY one way to interpret a challenge is ridiculous. A circle is not a spiral or a ball or a globe or an oval or who really cares?
As for taking extra time actually looking at an image, most people don't. I can live with that. But I try to - kind of the innocent before proven guilty rule.
my .02. |
|
|
|
08/12/2005 10:28:37 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why do you consider offbeat, creative, ingenious, out-of-the-box solutions to be "lesser"?
I think that's one reason you get so much resistance to ideas like this, because people who feel that creativity is as an important photographic skill to develop as aperture control--and are willing to take chances in their exploration which may not always be "successful"--are treated condescendingly for their daring, and told that you taking a few seconds evaluating the photo is a waste of your time.
If you ask a class to write a paper, you can hope for each and every one to be lucidly-written and thoroughly researched, but I wouldn't expect it. Does that mean that everyone whose paper fails that standard should just give up and not turn in their paper? Or should they turn in the best they can do and see what the teacher thinks? |
The write a paper for class example is a pretty good one, but I will take it one further. My son was in a creative writing class in highschool that the students turned in many "Papers" throughout the year. They were given many topics and directions to go with thier papers but every one he turned in, dealt with Computer Gaming or a Computer Game (as that is what he thought he was an expert at)...they all loosely fit the teachers request. Every once in a while he would even have a hit that would meet the teachers expectations, but the rest were average to mediocre.
He did not want to hear what the teacher was saying, he just wanted to do something that related to gaming.
Should he stop turning in papers? No, but he Should learn to mix it up a bit in what he turned in.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 10:31:57. |
|
