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08/12/2005 10:33:35 AM · #26 |
My opinion...
If you enjoy clear winners/loosers as much as the original post, try a sport where points are accumulated by making goals. |
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08/12/2005 10:35:34 AM · #27 |
a much much too serious view
don't get hung up on your score
i purposefully abuse the challenge
(and will again if it looks like a chuckle)
see my bird ;)
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08/12/2005 10:37:31 AM · #28 |
| Way to much time spent talking about photography.... |
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08/12/2005 10:42:09 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by awpollard:
He did not want to hear what the teacher was saying, he just wanted to do something that related to gaming.
Should he stop turning in papers? No, but he Should learn to mix it up a bit in what he turned in. |
But your analogy fails because we don't (necessarily) have one person submitting an off-topic photo every time.
We have hundreds of photographers, any one of whom could choose to submit somethng OOTB for a given challenge, and yet bears the brunt of the voters' wrath as if responsible for every other "off-topic" submission.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 10:42:34. |
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08/12/2005 10:46:21 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why do you consider offbeat, creative, ingenious, out-of-the-box solutions to be "lesser"? |
I don't and I didn't say that. I may consider one of them "stunning". But stunning and/or "offbeat, creative, ingenious, out-of-the-box solutions" doesn't make them automatically meet the challenge. And neither does spending more time trying to find a connection.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I think that's one reason you get so much resistance to ideas like this, because people who feel that creativity is as an important photographic skill to develop as aperture control--and are willing to take chances in their exploration which may not always be "successful"--are treated condescendingly for their daring, and told that you taking a few seconds evaluating the photo is a waste of your time. |
I don't think it is a waste of time to try to figure out how an image meets the challenge. But I do think that the ones that you term to be "successful" should be rewarded with a higher score than the failures. That is in the context of an image being a success or failure at meeting the challenge topic. Do you think every entry in every challenge meets the topic satisfactorily, or should be given the benefit of the doubt? I don't.
We are getting away from the OP's interest. I think people should be encouraged to try to fit the challenge topic more closely; and that images that don't should not score as high as images of equal quality that do. Can we please discuss some ideas to try to steer users in that direction.
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08/12/2005 10:52:00 AM · #31 |
I'm not very active in the forums. As a matter of fact, the link at the end of this posting was probably my first and only post for several years. This is an old old topic. I've ranted away at it myself, but how much good does that do? We are given a challenge to capture our interpretations of a theme. We then vote on the submissions. Someone comes in first place and someone comes in last place. If there is any worrying to be done, we should worry about what we have control over: our photo! So, I'm going to wrap up this posting and think about how I want to approach the Rain and Live Music challenges. - Risu81
Past discussion on this topic. |
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08/12/2005 10:55:45 AM · #32 |
It's the same old problem, since I first joined about a year ago.
The challenge descriptions are rigid and rule-like, yet people balk at the thought of actually adhering to those rigid descriptions.
If the challenge description includes the statement that 'your title should be the year that you are trying to capture' then what leeway have you been given? None.
So if we wish dpc to be a continuously 'out of the box' environment, make the challenge descriptions less rule-like. Or get rid of them altogether. |
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08/12/2005 11:02:51 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
... If an image cannot stand on its own without the challenge topic near at hand, what's the point? |
If it is a technique type challenge (such as B&W, Negative Space, Leading Lines, or even imitating St. Ansel), as opposed to a subject matter topic, the point may be to try to learn a new skill, and be judged on how well you acomplished that learning.
Originally posted by dahkota:
As for taking extra time actually looking at an image, most people don't. I can live with that. But I try to - kind of the innocent before proven guilty rule. |
Even with that approach, don't you occasionally find someone guilty of ignoring the topic? Or do all the images stay innocent?
I raise ya .02.
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08/12/2005 11:17:59 AM · #34 |
My view on competitions is that it's much better to compete against a large group than a small one. I guess it depends on whether you want to win or you want to really see where you place. Taking 5th out of 2000 is much more prestigous than 1st out of 100. I don't understand why people want to DQ the images that they're saying are inferior. I would think (if you're interested in doing better by DQ'ing the competition) you'd want to DQ the better competitors.
I'm also not sure who you are appealing to... is it me? I use my vote and comments to let people know ifI don't think their image meets the challenge. I sometimes even apologize for not getting it. If I put a comment that says, "I'm not sure what I'm looking at here." or "Where's the circle?" there's a low vote to go with that. Regarding the winner of Circle -- I added a comment that said something like "I'm not sure if a spiral counts as a circle, but I'm going to pretend it does (afterall, it's only perspective that makes this not look totally circular, right?)" I liked the photo, bent a bit to accept its circularness, and gave it a high vote. After looking at the image again, I'm content with my vote.
I don't think we're going to find that there are many people who ignore the challenge topic when voting. If you find that too many people are giving very high votes for images that are so off topic, maybe you should wonder why you don't get it.
I'm glad there are no money prizes on DPC. I can't imagine the difficulties we'd be experiencing if that were the case.
Brian
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 11:21:18. |
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08/12/2005 11:24:44 AM · #35 |
First let me just say that I have not even bothered to read most of the posts in this thread because i am sure they are all the same typical ranting that has been going on lately.
Secondly let me just state that I think people are loosing sight of the fun factor that this site brings. Personally I have had a ton of fun going out and hunting down pictures that fit the challenge topic. I have seen things in my backyard I have never noticed before and been to places I never even knew existed. Getting me out and experiencing these things has been the greatest aspect of this site and I highly encourage people to do the same. I look forward to each weeks topic as I know that it going to force me to think creatively and plan and find something great to shoot.
Sure I could have shot something easily found in my house and related it in some way to the challenge, but where is the fun in that? In the end, the vote comes secondary to me... it's the thrill of the hunt which the challenge brings that I enjoy the most. And for all those that don't take on the challnge of trying to find something that directly relates tot he challenge and going out and looking, well then that's just your loss!
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 11:26:35. |
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08/12/2005 11:29:10 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by bear_music:
Someone needs to step in and say that the topic of this thread (basically, "How can we encourage people to adhere more closely to the challenge description?") has NOTHING to do with rules. Meeting the challenge is a goal, not a rule. |
You make it sound like meeting the challenge is optional. Like it's a nice thing to do if it's conveinient, but ok to skip over if it's not conveinient. Instead of responding to the question "How can we encourage people to adhere more closely to the challenge description?" you seem to want to say we shouldn't try to encourage people to adhere more closely to the challenge description.
But I think you are wrong about that bear. Meeting the challenge is not a rule in the sense that your entry can be disqualified for failing to do so. But it is far more than a goal. It is mentioned in the rules.
Here's the sentence that appears in both Basic and Advanced.
"While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."
I think it is as much a rule as the prohibition against spot editing in Basic for example. It's just enforced by the voters instead of being enforced by the Site Council. IMHO, the voters don't enforce the rule regarding meeting the challenge very strictly, sometimes almost not at all. And I agree with macrothing, the original poster, that this lax enforcement works against the users who make an honest attempt to comply with it by submitting images that clearly fit the challenge.
macrothing has raised a legitimate concern that desreves a fair discussion. The challenges are supposed to be themed competitions. Images that do not meet the challenge should be penalized no matter how well done and/or creative they are. And it should be recognized that there are limits to what meets the challenge. People who take the position that any image can be explained into meeting any topic in the name of creativity are failing to recognize that the topic is intended to be limiting. The well done and/or creative images should be held to the same standard as the average images as far as meeting the challenge. Having a well done and/or creative image should not be a free pass allowing you to ignore meeting the challenge topic, or to address it in only some obscure, roundabout way. |
You have a knock for taking what I say and warping it into something that fits your preconception of what you THINK I am saying.
I agree that the OP has raised a legitimate issue. I am, in fact, engaged in discussing it. My POV is not quite the same as his, of course, but nevertheless I am engaged in discussion. More to the point, my original entry into this thread (the one you quoted above) was in answer not to the OP but to shadow:
Originally posted by shadow:
i think our votes will either encourage or discourage those who bend the rules on purpose? show them enough 1's and they will get the picture :p
I felt it necessary to make clear that "meeting the challenge" is not a rule and people who fail to meet the challenge are NOT guilty of "bending the rules"; surely we can agree on that, since the rules themselves actually SAY this in plain English? Since the "recommend for DQ" box clearly says also that "not meeting the challenge" does not break any rules?
And if it's not a rule, but it is strongly encouraged (which it is), then meeting the challenge is a "goal", right? You aren't gonna be ignominiously banished if you fail to meet the challenge, but you WILL pay the price if you don't do it obviously enough to engage the voters. It's a goal you have to meet if you want to score well. And the ONLY arbiters of "meeting the challenge" are the voters themselves.
Now, the rest of my post took off from that point and explored, rather mildly I thought, the idea that in MANY cases images areunfairly marked down, or even derided, for not meeting the challenge when in fact they DO meet it, and the voter(s) are simply too locked into their own cultural perspective, too unyielding (as it were) to recognize this. Water as a symbol of material wealth in an arid land is simply one of the recent examples of this.
My position here, which you are ignoring in your haste to set me up as a straw man to be countered with your own brand of perceived orthodoxy, is NOT that these images "deserved to win" and that the voters are too lame to realize it, but rather that this whole witch-hunt mentality of deriding certain entries for "not meeting the challenge" is more indicative of shortcomings on the part of the voter than it is a sign that the shooters are blatantly ignoring the challenge topic.
It happens, sure, but I don't think it happens that often; I think most entrants take a legitimate stab at meeting the challenge, i really do. It's just that a lot of us enjoy meeting it obliquely, "creatively" if you will.
I for the life of me cannot understand why we are publicly derided for doing this. Isn't it sufficient that we receive our mediocre scores? Are we in ANY way damaging the body photographic by showing our collective flashes of wit or creativity, however ill-fated they assuredly are? I don't see how that can possibly be.
Robt.
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08/12/2005 11:32:31 AM · #37 |
Maybe you should join (this coming from a non-member). If you look at the member challenges, the calliber of work dramatically improves. I figure if you're paying for, you are scerious about the craft and not some newb with a P&S.
Also, it's art. You can't tell me how to interpret a challenge. It will show in the voting. If nobody gets the concept of the picture, it won't score well. During the "Affluence" someone had a picture of a waterfall. Great picture, but I scored it low because it wasn't what I thought of as "Affluence." After reading the comments, the photographer was trying to show how important water is and it's sign of affluence. In her country only someone with money would have a water fall in their front lawn, but this was lost by the viewer.
While we're bitching. Does anyone actually go back and thank people for their comments. I try to.
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08/12/2005 11:37:33 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by dahkota:
... If an image cannot stand on its own without the challenge topic near at hand, what's the point? |
If it is a technique type challenge (such as B&W, Negative Space, Leading Lines, or even imitating St. Ansel), as opposed to a subject matter topic, the point may be to try to learn a new skill, and be judged on how well you acomplished that learning.
Originally posted by dahkota:
As for taking extra time actually looking at an image, most people don't. I can live with that. But I try to - kind of the innocent before proven guilty rule. |
Even with that approach, don't you occasionally find someone guilty of ignoring the topic? Or do all the images stay innocent?
I raise ya .02. |
To answer the first, if an image is good, it will stand on its own outside the challenge, whether the challenge is technique or subject. I don't need to know that the winning image of the leading lines challenge was in the challenge to appreciate it. However, in the wooden challenge, there are many examples where, if you saw the image outside the challenge you would ask, "Why?"
When viewing and critiquing and commenting on images, I often ask myself if I were the photographer why would I take this image? If the only answer I can come up with is to meet the challenge rules, then the image has failed in my eyes.
Yes, I have found people ignoring the topic. I also find that some people don't understand the topic. And, there are other cases where I missed what the photographer was doing on the first pass. Luckily I view all images at least twice (yes, I have that luxury in smaller challenges). If I don't understand an image, I spend some time trying to get to know it by commenting on it. Realization often hits me and if it doesn't, I let the photographer know.
And I agree with JayWalk - 1/2 the fun is the hunt.
Now, are we playing poker? I just anted up... :) |
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08/12/2005 11:41:15 AM · #39 |
wow! I can't believe i just read this whole thing....I've never considered myself an artist or that I had any artistic talent. But I thought this site was about your personal perception that you as a photographer wanted to convey. To put and objective rule on something that is considered so subjective would be in fact stifling to the creative process. I'm against it and look forward every challenge to explore different people's take on a specific theme. If I think someone has not met the challenge, I'll say so with my vote. As i did with the spider photo for the bird challenge. Nico-blue's photo was a great circle example, well taken and deserved it's ribbon. I gave it a ten.
Message edited by author 2005-08-12 11:43:15.
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08/12/2005 11:48:53 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
To put and objective rule on something that is considered so subjective would be in fact stifling to the creative process. |
Okay...Let's take it a step further. I feel that voting on something as subjective as art is stifling the creative process. I say from now on we should have nothing but open challenges with advanced editing with the voting scale replaced by a button that simply says "10". |
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08/12/2005 12:00:29 PM · #41 |
I don't see why this is even a concern. We all know that photos that don't meet the challenge aren't well-receieved by voters and generally do not do well. Am I wrong?
Also, I don't understand what you are proposing. You want SC to be able to remove entries that, in their mind, don't meet the challenge?
Why not let everyone have their own interpretation of the challenge? If it's really 'outside the box,' it probably won't be well received by voters, but that doesn't mean they should be disqualified!
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08/12/2005 12:17:20 PM · #42 |
Grow-up.
I have had editors ask for a topic before and I try to sit and get specifics from them as to what they want, because when they say, "Get a shot of fall colors for me", or "I need a shot of someone praying" if I don't get specifics they usually say, That's not quite what I had in mind."
You cannot tell what or how each person is going to think of for each topic. Relax and enjoy the site for what it is. I have had really low scores and really good scores based on topic, I enjoy trying to be out of the box, sometimes it works sometimes it dosen't. Who cares? It's not worth getting this upset over, that's not what this site is about IMHO. |
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08/12/2005 12:17:57 PM · #43 |
I've got a great idea!!!
It's a new and novel one, but here we go:
1. View
2. Vote
3. Realize that others are doing the same thing, in their own way.
4. Accept the fact that others view the world differently than you.
5. Move the *&!% on and enjoy life.
6. Repeat. |
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08/12/2005 12:53:50 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by neophyte:
To put and objective rule on something that is considered so subjective would be in fact stifling to the creative process. |
Okay...Let's take it a step further. I feel that voting on something as subjective as art is stifling the creative process. I say from now on we should have nothing but open challenges with advanced editing with the voting scale replaced by a button that simply says "10". |
Incredible!!?? So tell me, who would come up with the rule to determine the criteria? One person's perception would determine what meets the theme and what doesn't? Good luck! This whole thread sounds like sour grapes to me. If a photo that you believe doesn't meet the theme does better than you think it should've, so what? (I forget how much the cash prize is for a blue ribbon here) No one can understand everyone's take on a subject. If you really believe this about voting then don't. aboutimage's response has uncommon sense to it....It's the one I plan to adhere to.
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08/12/2005 12:56:36 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by ralphnev:
a much much too serious view
don't get hung up on your score
i purposefully abuse the challenge
(and will again if it looks like a chuckle)
see my bird ;)
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I am sorry I did not vote in that challenge. After laughing I would not have deducted due to meeting the challenge. It made me laugh, thats worth a extra point! |
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08/12/2005 08:33:13 PM · #46 |
Put simply, I was seeking;
1. An anonymous Poll
2. To establish what the majority want / expect of DPC Challenges
3. IF apt, a Rule/Guideline to accommodate what the majority wants
I did miss the one of many relevant previous threads in my recent 'research', so thank you for posting it. I read it all and yes, exactly what I am saying - this is not a new 'issue'. Also I was interested to see that 'in the beginning' it (not meeting the Challenge) was grounds for DQ - that confirms a few things for me (and I am not necessarily suggesting a reinstatement). Thank you for sharing that little bit of information.
In order to gain as clear a view as possible (in the hope of instigating a poll) on what the majority wants, I thought that having a civil, mature and 'open' discussion in the one thread would assist that (but perhaps that is 'close minded'). Why it was 'transferred' (isn't that one of SC's jobs - 'locking'?) was at first a little bewildering to me (I can surmise) - but as long as it is being 'discussed' I really do not care 'which thread'. I DO care though if my words/ideas etc are 'twisted', especially if the intent is to derail any rational legitimate discussion or worse force a certain 'personal viewpoint' - I have deliberately tried not to do that, and speak purely of the Challenge. A poll will quickly (and anonymously) establish what the majority wants - take it from there. |
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08/13/2005 12:20:42 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by aboutimage:
I've got a great idea!!!
It's a new and novel one, but here we go:
1. View
2. Vote
3. Realize that others are doing the same thing, in their own way.
4. Accept the fact that others view the world differently than you.
5. Move the *&!% on and enjoy life.
6. Repeat. |
David your idea completely falls apart at step 5. I mean YOUR interpretation of "enjoying life" might be to View, Vote, Accept, yada yada yada. While others thoroughly enjoy battling out their philosophies in the forums and trying to convince everyone that they should ALL think out of the box like themselves. ...Suddenly I see a flaw in that concept as well. But I digress.
I have realized my purpose in life is simply to observe, document, and find great humor in everything that goes on. And of course, I occasionally jump in to stir the pot. :)
Y'all have fun. |
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08/13/2005 12:32:28 AM · #48 |
1. a poll does not tell you what the "majority" wants, only those who vote.
2. This site does not run by majority rule. The result might be interesting but irrelevant.
3. It's likely to end up significantly split. Which side deserves to get screwed?
4. analogous to the thread about hiding posts by certain members ... if you don't like a picture, move on. don't start making rules saying I can't submit it.
Message edited by author 2005-08-13 00:35:29. |
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08/15/2005 08:40:20 PM · #49 |
There are a few current threads; About Time Capsule Scoring and time capsule scores (among others) that are 'debating' this issue. So, for the last time, I will try to 'incorporate' the issue into the one thread in the hope of at least, a Poll. If people feel strongly enough about this issue (agree or disagree), a poll MAY be instigated by the Admins (if for no other reason than so those who wish to voice their opinion anonymously can do so). That way at least a consensus can be achieved and this issue can be dealt with (or put to bed) better in the future. I do believe this site has evolved to the point where the 'majority' does indeed 'rule' (hence previous polls). A poll will indicate the majority as the majority would 'vote'(especially if it is anonymous).
If you look back to the conception, the 'Admins' were more 'vocal' in terms of how the 'game was to be played' (rightly so, it was their idea), but it seems that they now try (and with great effort I surmise, especially considering the myriad of 'internal politics' they likely have to deal with, yes including 'this') to 'let the voice of the people' determine which direction the site 'grows' (excuse me if that is an incorrect conclusion). I hope the site (still?) gives them more joy than 'heartache'. They deserve to be proud of what they have done (and do) here, it IS unique.
A quick aside re the Time Capsule comments; I am the 'guilty party' (with a clear conscience) for those "if only you just had the year" comments. That is how I read the Challenge description. People want to know 'why', well I explain 'why', then people (not all) 'complain'. You either want to know why or not. Maybe another box 'I only want praise' for those who just want to 'feel good'.
This is not the Pulitzer Prize, it's a unique 'photographic game (competition)', that pushes people of varying 'talent' to be creative within the confines of a set weekly Challenge - the end result is a conglomerate of some outstanding (Challenge specific) shots, 'personal bests' and new skills along the way. I would just like to see facts on what 'the people want'.
PS: I can't 'meet the Challenge' for Live Music, but I DO have a superb (edit: ok 'good' definitely not 'superb') shot of a bird singing - but that IS a DMC in MY opinion and, against the 'spirit' of the Challenge(s), so have no problem sitting on the sidelines.
Message edited by author 2005-08-15 21:46:19. |
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08/15/2005 09:03:15 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by aboutimage:
I've got a great idea!!!
It's a new and novel one, but here we go:
1. View
2. Vote
3. Realize that others are doing the same thing, in their own way.
4. Accept the fact that others view the world differently than you.
5. Move the *&!% on and enjoy life.
6. Repeat. |
this gets my vote! :) |
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