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11/14/2005 11:00:18 AM · #651 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
Who created god(s)? |
Logic problems are commonplace in religion. Let's take it from the top: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Well if God was already around, then this wasn't the beginning, was it? What was He doing before he created everything? It must've been a boring childhood. If there was no heaven yet, then where was He? Some have argued that He has no physical form, thus didn't need to be anywhere, but this conflicts with biblical accounts of God appearing, talking, etc. in the physical world. If there was nothing yet, then what did He create everything from? If he just spoke them into existence, why was there even speech or language if there was nobody to talk to, and why couldn't He just speak the bad guys OUT of existence instead of going with the Flood routine (that obviously didn't work anyway given continuous records of other civilizations)? How could He create the earth before the stars when the earth itself is composed of matter that formed in stars? etc. etc.
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 11:09:01. |
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11/14/2005 11:31:01 AM · #652 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
OK, more theology questions:
If you (you that blindly support theology and everything it states without questioning) cannot accept that this world and the universe was created with a big bang and that everything evolved from it, please answer this question:
Who created god(s)?
If you say - god(s) just exist, how does your argument bear any more credibility than the one of the universe creation that also just happened?
If you say that some other entity created god(s) then you're creating an antithesis. |
God is an absolute infinite... when you finish walking back in time to the point that God began you let me know because I want a picture sent to me.
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11/14/2005 11:42:42 AM · #653 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
God is an absolute infinite... |
What is the basis for this claim?
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 11:50:56. |
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11/14/2005 11:44:02 AM · #654 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by srdanz:
Who created god(s)? If you say - god(s) just exist, how does your argument bear any more credibility than the one of the universe creation that also just happened? |
God is an absolute infinite... |
You didn't answer the question. You are stating that something more complex than the universe was not created but just exists. Total disbelief in that rationale is why Intelligent Design proponents dismiss evolution.
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 11:45:58. |
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11/14/2005 12:04:53 PM · #655 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
God is an absolute infinite... |
What is the basis for this claim? |
Eternity -
-time without end
-a state of eternal existence believed in some religions to characterize the afterlife
-a seemingly endless time interval (waiting)
-//wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Jeremiah 10:10 (New International Version)
10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Nehemiah 9:5 (New International Version)
5 And the Levites—Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah and Pethahiah—said: "Stand up and praise the LORD your God, who is from everlasting to everlasting."
Psalm 102:24-27 (New International Version)
24 So I said: "Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.
If you want more I can probably find it. EDIT TO ADD: The gift of eternal life is given to us by God as is the gift of eternal punishment. God is the only being capable of being and granting absolute infinite's.
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 12:06:55.
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11/14/2005 12:11:19 PM · #656 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
God is an absolute infinite... |
What is the basis for this claim? |
Jeremiah, Daniel, Nehemiah, Psalm... |
In other words, you know it's a fact because somebody wrote it down several thousand years ago? What makes the veracity of these sources any more valid than those of the Greeks, Egyptians or Chinese (all of whom existed before Christian texts)?
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 12:11:38. |
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11/14/2005 12:13:49 PM · #657 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Jeremiah 10:10 (New International Version)
10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Nehemiah 9:5 (New International Version)
5 And the Levites—Jeshua, Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah and Pethahiah—said: "Stand up and praise the LORD your God, who is from everlasting to everlasting."
Psalm 102:24-27 (New International Version)
24 So I said: "Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end.
If you want more I can probably find it. EDIT TO ADD: The gift of eternal life is given to us by God as is the gift of eternal punishment. God is the only being capable of being and granting absolute infinite's. |
And what is basis for the claims contained in a several thousand year old collection of books?
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11/14/2005 12:16:44 PM · #658 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
God is an absolute infinite... |
What is the basis for this claim? |
Jeremiah, Daniel, Nehemiah, Psalm... |
In other words, you know it's a fact because somebody wrote it down several thousand years ago? What makes the veracity of these sources any more valid than those of the Greeks, Egyptians or Chinese (all of whom existed before Christian texts)? |
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? I can sit here and post study guides to the book or I can just ask you to point out one error or a false claim?
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11/14/2005 12:19:49 PM · #659 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? I can sit here and post study guides to the book or I can just ask you to point out one error or a false claim? |
Do you believe the Bible to be inerrant? |
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11/14/2005 12:21:40 PM · #660 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
God is an absolute infinite... |
What is the basis for this claim? |
Jeremiah, Daniel, Nehemiah, Psalm... |
In other words, you know it's a fact because somebody wrote it down several thousand years ago? What makes the veracity of these sources any more valid than those of the Greeks, Egyptians or Chinese (all of whom existed before Christian texts)? |
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? I can sit here and post study guides to the book or I can just ask you to point out one error or a false claim? |
Try the very first few verses!
Did God write these himself or did someone write them to try and explain what to them was unexplainable at the time? If Man wrote them and not God then they are open to dispute. Anything written in the Bible was written in the far past and cannot be verified. Anything anyone disputes will be countermanded with either "Prove it is wrong" or "God said it so it is right"
P
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11/14/2005 12:26:32 PM · #661 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? I can sit here and post study guides to the book or I can just ask you to point out one error or a false claim? |
Do you believe the Bible to be inerrant? |
Yes, not liable to error in terms
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11/14/2005 12:28:37 PM · #662 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Yes, not liable to error in terms |
I'm not sure I understand. Could you define "in terms" more precisely? Thank you. |
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11/14/2005 12:30:09 PM · #663 |
| If the bible is factual history, can anyone explain the thousands of years between the first appearance of language (supposedly Egyptian) and the first appearance of Christian texts? |
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11/14/2005 12:31:43 PM · #664 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? I can sit here and post study guides to the book or I can just ask you to point out one error or a false claim? |
It is not about whether there are errors in it or not. However, you cannot use excerpts from a book to prove that what is in that same book is valid. That's just not philosophically valid argument. Don't you see that?
So, please try again. If you feel like you cannot answer or rationalize beyond this premise, then we have to agree that the two approaches are at least equally valid, and that one is not superior to another in this respect.
These books (Talmud, Bible(s), Qur'an) have been around helping people live through the centuries. Most excerpts do deal with the rules and suggestions on how to live your life. These have been largely replaced with the constitutions and laws of modern countries, and have evolved in that manner to adjust for the changes and new findings. But that's what they are - books to help people live their life. When the law conflicts with the e.g. bible, what do you think, are you going to be held accountable if you did something against the law but not against the bible? I think you are going to appear in front of a judge! (Or, maybe not in Texas after all.) |
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11/14/2005 12:32:34 PM · #665 |
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Try the very first few verses!
Did God write these himself or did someone write them to try and explain what to them was unexplainable at the time? If Man wrote them and not God then they are open to dispute. Anything written in the Bible was written in the far past and cannot be verified. Anything anyone disputes will be countermanded with either "Prove it is wrong" or "God said it so it is right"
P |
Wait so the things we write today as scientist, historians, etc. will eventually be fruitless because anything written in the past cannot be verified? of course this is in jest it is absurd to believe that historical documentation cannot be verified.
What about verifying the content of the Bible or any historical document?
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11/14/2005 12:36:07 PM · #666 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by Riponlady:
Try the very first few verses!
Did God write these himself or did someone write them to try and explain what to them was unexplainable at the time? If Man wrote them and not God then they are open to dispute. Anything written in the Bible was written in the far past and cannot be verified. Anything anyone disputes will be countermanded with either "Prove it is wrong" or "God said it so it is right"
P |
Wait so the things we write today as scientist, historians, etc. will eventually be fruitless because anything written in the past cannot be verified? of course this is in jest it is absurd to believe that historical documentation cannot be verified.
What about verifying the content of the Bible or any historical document? |
You find me a way of verifying through alternate means anything written 1000's of years ago!
Things written today are backed up by a variety of sources. We have no other sources to verify the Garden of Eden except the Bible!!
Even the birth and life of Jesus is not verifiable.
P
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11/14/2005 12:36:18 PM · #667 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Yes, not liable to error in terms |
I'm not sure I understand. Could you define "in terms" more precisely? Thank you. |
EDIT in typing... Yes, not liable to error will suffice and would be my point entirely
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11/14/2005 12:42:00 PM · #668 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Do you believe the Bible to be inerrant? |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Yes, not liable to error will suffice and would be my point entirely |
So you have not found error in the Bible and you believe the Bible is inerrant? Which came first?
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11/14/2005 12:43:28 PM · #669 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
It is not about whether there are errors in it or not. However, you cannot use excerpts from a book to prove that what is in that same book is valid. That's just not philosophically valid argument. Don't you see that? |
If there are no errors of false claims in the Bible and it is accurate historically, there is no need for further discussion about the creation of the universe and many other topics? I don't remember using exceprts from a book to prove that the book is valid, but rather to show why God is an absolute infinite.
Originally posted by srdanz:
So, please try again. If you feel like you cannot answer or rationalize beyond this premise, then we have to agree that the two approaches are at least equally valid, and that one is not superior to another in this respect. |
Equally valid? What other approach are you referring to?
Originally posted by srdanz:
These books (Talmud, Bible(s), Qur'an) have been around helping people live through the centuries. Most excerpts do deal with the rules and suggestions on how to live your life. These have been largely replaced with the constitutions and laws of modern countries, and have evolved in that manner to adjust for the changes and new findings. But that's what they are - books to help people live their life. When the law conflicts with the e.g. bible, what do you think, are you going to be held accountable if you did something against the law but not against the bible? I think you are going to appear in front of a judge! (Or, maybe not in Texas after all.) |
If I break the laws of man then I will be held accountable for it. I will also be held accountable before God based on His Word and promise.
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11/14/2005 12:48:07 PM · #670 |
[quote=res0m50r] If there are no errors of false claims in the Bible and it is accurate historically, there is no need for further discussion about the creation of the universe and many other topics? I don't remember using exceprts from a book to prove that the book is valid, but rather to show why God is an absolute infinite.
Is this a chicken and egg scenario?
Use the Bible quotes to prove God is infinite and because God is infinite and therefore "real" then the Bible must be true??
Confused of Ripon rides again!
P
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11/14/2005 12:51:56 PM · #671 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Do you believe the Bible to be inerrant? |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Yes, not liable to error will suffice and would be my point entirely |
So you have not found error in the Bible and you believe the Bible is inerrant? Which came first? |
Well to look at the cover and say wow there's a book with no errors would just be absurd. I would say my conclusion came after reading it and not being able to find error. This is based soley on my research and understanding and have yet to have anyone prove it false.
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11/14/2005 12:54:51 PM · #672 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Well to look at the cover and say wow there's a book with no errors would just be absurd. I would say my conclusion came after reading it and not being able to find error. This is based soley on my research and understanding and have yet to have anyone prove it false. |
You read the whole Bible before coming the the conclusion that it was inerrant?
Edited for clarity.
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 12:56:09. |
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11/14/2005 12:55:21 PM · #673 |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by res0m50r:
I have yet to find an error in the Bible and a claim that is false? |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Do you believe the Bible to be inerrant? |
Originally posted by res0m50r:
Yes, not liable to error will suffice and would be my point entirely |
So you have not found error in the Bible and you believe the Bible is inerrant? Which came first? |
Well to look at the cover and say wow there's a book with no errors would just be absurd. I would say my conclusion came after reading it and not being able to find error. This is based soley on my research and understanding and have yet to have anyone prove it false. |
What errors were you looking for? How can you be sure that Moses was found in the bulrushes? One can provw there are bulrushes in Egypt and that they were there in Biblical times but is there any other way of proving that Moses was abandoned and found there? So you cannot verify and are taking the Bible to be true because you have faith not because you know it to be true.
Generally historical facts in the Bible may be true but they are not the important bits . We have no way of knowing if God spoke to people and what he said if he did so! I know I cannot prove it is untrue either but then again I am not claiming anything except I don't believe it!
P
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 13:00:58.
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11/14/2005 12:56:03 PM · #674 |
FWIW. Time is often referred to as the "fourth" dimension. It, along with the other three, was created by God. God exists/existed OUTSIDE of TIME.
Consider the following explanation of part of the generally accepted special theory of relativity, from this site:
"The speed of light c is said to be the speed limit of the universe because nothing can be accelerated to the speed of light with respect to you. A common way of describing this situation is to say that as an object approaches the speed of light, its mass increases and more force must be exerted to produce a given acceleration. There are difficulties with the "changing mass" perspective, and it is generally preferrable to say that the relativistic momentum and relativistic energy approach infinity at the speed of light. Since the net applied force is equal to the rate of change of momentum and the work done is equal to the change in energy, it would take an infinite time and an infinite amount of work to accelerate an object to the speed of light."
ONE of the ways scripture says ( 1 John 1:5 ) "God IS light"
Hence, God is a) THE "constant" in the universe, b) has infinte energy
The special theory of relativity also holds that time slows as speed increases - and since nothing can exceed the speed of light, then at the speed of light, time CEASES.
Ergo, God is infinite, limitless, and timeless. ( Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent ) |
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11/14/2005 12:57:59 PM · #675 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Ergo, God is infinite, limitless, and timeless. ( Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent ) |
If God is omnipotent, then by definition we have no free will because we have no power to make choices.
Message edited by author 2005-11-14 12:58:23. |
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