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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Technical Perfection VS Subject Matter
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 08/14/2003 04:31:21 AM · #1
OK where to start. My Desolation entry is current a minute smidge above 5. I have 11 comments. Nearly all of them say what a good subject my photo has, but....The contrast and tonal range is too weak (B&W shot) and focus may be a bit soft. Oh but the subject is spot on yet still only a 5. Why?
Maybe this is my inexperience as a photographer speaking (having had my camera a little over a month) but I like the fact that it doesnt look like every other photo striving for tecnical textbook excellence. Maybe my choice of contrast and focus was deliberate to give a dreary and dull look akin to a "desolate" subject (look it up in a thesaurus).
Seems I am being punished because of a few tecnical issues when my shot does indeed convey desolation. Thats in my eyes and all else I've shown my shot too. My comments even suggest the same.
Now, I had 2 shots, 1 had more contrast and sharpness, the other (straight out of camera) didnt. To me I thought I should submit the photo I took with my camera, not altered. Maybe I shouldnt show the alternative now coz then you will know my entry but I would like to hear anyone elses thoughts on this matter.
 08/14/2003 05:02:46 AM · #2
Don't show your other shot now - not good to let people know your entry.

I made the same 'mistake', in terms of scoring well here. The shot I entered was the one that most spoke to me of desolation, rather than being a 'dpc photo'. It was always going to be a tricky challenge fom that point of view. If you take a good look at all previous high-scoring photos you'd realise that having no 'technical issues' is an almost essential quality of those shots.

And who's complaining about a 5? You'll be around halfway with that - moan when the voting public thinks your hard-worked-at entry is only worth a touch over 4.

ed
 08/14/2003 05:17:31 AM · #3
My two cents after a month of DPC'ing: this site is very technical for the most part, and that's well and good, as most of us are trying to get better at the specs aspect of our fotos anyway. Even the most visually thought-provoking images IMO seem to slip through the cracks, virtually unnoticed. This happens not necessarily because of poor technical execution, but because of not being technically stunning (that being the operative word).
The better characteristic of this site, though, is that it has reached a critical mass of enthusiasts that allows it to decently reflect trends in the real world. This is even made truer by inputs from an abundance of photographers with top quality cams most pros are using.
08/14/2003 05:21:07 AM · #4
good job on your future entry.
Now before I complain too much about my score I will say to me the comments are more important, thats why I entered the photo I wanted feedback on, not 1 I thought was a lesser photo but had a better chance of winning. Maybe this isnt the place for me to have my photo judged. People Ive shown my photo to who dont normally go around judging photos love it. I thought maybe thats because they are looking at THE PHOTO not its technical issues that they know nothing of, or are caught up in scrutinising. They judge the photo by what it conveys and says to them, as I do. Just a thought.
 08/14/2003 05:22:22 AM · #5
I agree with this. I am scoring very badly I think - this is the first time I have entered anything let alone a photography competition. I have only had a few comments but it seems that they don't get what I was trying to go for and I admit that I don't really know anything about the technical side of photography. I think part of my problem is that it as an ugly photo, which was also what I wanted but maybe some people don't get that.

But apart from that I have enjoyed it. It certainly challenged me which is what is all about. I had an unwilling model who only did it because he loves (ahhhh) and it wasn't a nice subject matter either within my definition of what desolation means anyway.
 08/14/2003 05:33:49 AM · #6
Ok. Just to clarify. I have 11 comments. 9 are very positive stating how the photo relates to desolation. They also say how it needs more contrast etc. Does that mean I am being punished and recieve a lower score just because of a few technical issues which dont drastically change the photo. Such positive comments with a low score confuses me.

EDIT: I might add also that I do think these issues are important if your judging a photo with no topic in mind and you think for yourself what it is supposed to convey. However, we were given a topic and I think the most important thing is how well the photo speaks of that topic, not how it could have been better with slightly more focus or contrast.

Message edited by author 2003-08-14 05:47:27.
 08/14/2003 07:45:41 AM · #7
I just don't understand the constant complaints from people here who gripe about not scoring highly despite lack of technique. I've been playing piano virtually all my life. I'm still developing my technique. If I'm playing say some Liszt and my technique isn't up to scratch, I won't complain if people pick me up on it. The more technique I develop, the more I can communicate and the more I can move people and show them my vision of whatever I'm playing. What's the difference with photography? People pick up a camera and immediately moan that people aren't judging them by their intent but by their technique... that's art! Get some technique and then you won't have any barriers between you and your creativity. Phew, rant over!
 08/14/2003 07:56:14 AM · #8
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
I just don't understand the constant complaints from people here who gripe about not scoring highly despite lack of technique. I've been playing piano virtually all my life. I'm still developing my technique. If I'm playing say some Liszt and my technique isn't up to scratch, I won't complain if people pick me up on it. The more technique I develop, the more I can communicate and the more I can move people and show them my vision of whatever I'm playing. What's the difference with photography? People pick up a camera and immediately moan that people aren't judging them by their intent but by their technique... that's art! Get some technique and then you won't have any barriers between you and your creativity. Phew, rant over!

Heheh ... deep breaths : )
Your piano metaphor is all well and good, but only describes one type of music. Some of us like Jazz where technique is nowhere near as important. The undisputed queen of Urban R&B, Mary J Blige, often sings off-key but her fans don't sit there knocking marks off for imperfection, they just enjoy the music for what it is.

Different strokes for different folks.
 08/14/2003 08:05:16 AM · #9
Hmm, jazz takes a huge amount of technique...
Let me put it this way,
if there were a music competition where ANYBODY could take part,
classical, jazz, rock, pop, whatever,
don't you think the people with the better technique would consistently get better marks? I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing!
 08/14/2003 08:09:21 AM · #10
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
Hmm, jazz takes a huge amount of technique...
Let me put it this way,
if there were a music competition where ANYBODY could take part,
classical, jazz, rock, pop, whatever,
don't you think the people with the better technique would consistently get better marks? I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing!


Yep. And there are moments when the technique called for is to actually sing off-key, in microtones. And that isn't a bad thing.
 08/14/2003 08:10:06 AM · #11
Bobster I think you miss my point totally. Probably because I didnt explain well, though. Yes I dont have good technique, Ive had a camera for little over a month and work long hours leaving little time so far to develop technique. Second, a low score is fine to me when I get reasons why? I was mostly wondering Y I have had good comments about how my photo fits but my score reflects a different story. Yes the comments pointed out a few things such as weak tonal range, but is that the be all and end all of a photo.
To me there is a great deal of perfection in imperfection coz thats reality as Ive seen it in my short 21 years.
Anyway I guess I have a different way of lookin at things.
 08/14/2003 08:14:02 AM · #12
Well I think those who break the mould and dare to be different are the real trailblazers of history.
Also think of a critically acclaimed Tom Waits. Have you heard his voice. Or Bob Dylan for that matter. Crap singing technique (not to me) but the message is there.
A little something to think about.
EDIT: I really hoping this thread takes off. Id like to hear what others think on this issue.

Message edited by author 2003-08-14 08:16:01.
 08/14/2003 08:14:27 AM · #13
Indeed Jazz does take good technique, I was trying to point out that Jazz audiences wouldn't start shaking their heads if the occasional lapse in technique crept in, or if the pianist went off on a freestyle.

In your competition it would wholy depend on the tastes of the judges as to who won - some judging panels would see perfect technique as dull & boring!

Voting at dpc does fit well with classical music though. Technical 'mistakes' do get punished. Unfortunately it's much easier for an untrained eye to spot a 'mistake' in a photo than it is for an untrained ear to spot a mistake in a classical performance.

Hmm, I'm off to invent 'Freestyle Photography' : )
 08/14/2003 08:21:44 AM · #14
Originally posted by BLEE:
Bobster I think you miss my point totally. Probably because I didnt explain well, though. Yes I dont have good technique, Ive had a camera for little over a month and work long hours leaving little time so far to develop technique. Second, a low score is fine to me when I get reasons why? I was mostly wondering Y I have had good comments about how my photo fits but my score reflects a different story. Yes the comments pointed out a few things such as weak tonal range, but is that the be all and end all of a photo.
To me there is a great deal of perfection in imperfection coz thats reality as Ive seen it in my short 21 years.
Anyway I guess I have a different way of lookin at things.


My two-bit: If the technique is poor (this is just a supposition, I probably have not seen what you are talking about), that alone might be too distracting to allow people to focus longer on your foto, and try to get what you're conveying. Then to compound the issue, there are over 200 fotos that we can rummage through! Believe me, if you're as excited with fotos as I am, the not-so-interesting ones will get sidetracked quite easily by specific ones that truly hold my interest.
08/14/2003 08:57:21 AM · #15
The perfect display of man's imperfection is his imperfect search for perfection.
 08/14/2003 05:22:16 PM · #16


OK, here's my opinion...

If a shot -- no matter the subject or composition -- is poorly executed, it's a "bad" shot and that's hard to get over. There are plenty of techniques that can be used to convey emotion (soft focus, high contrast, etc...) that might not appeal to all folks. I, for one, enjoy images employing these techniques -- if they're done well.

Sometimes, however, a photo -- no matter how darling or perfect for the challenge -- just doesn't fly because it's been poorly executed. (I have no idea who's photo is who's and haven't even looked at the Desolate challenge, so this is not pointed at anyone.)

Here's an example of my own. I got caught up in my personal emotions about this shot and submitted it for the Fill the Frame challenge even though it was somewhat out of focus and not my best work. My score reflects poor execution (which it was), but my comments indicate that people liked the subject. I knew that this would score lowly, but I submitted it anyway -- something I dislike when other people do and now I'm guilty.

Sorry...I've been interrupted and have totally lost my train of thought. I guess my point is that poorly executed wonderful ideas are still just poorly executed. Good intentions, it seems, don't mean much around here -- and I prefer it that way.

Rob
 08/14/2003 05:51:51 PM · #17
I think there are two problems that exist here. The first is the belief that there are set techniques, and a proper execution that apply to photography. The second is the amount of complaints from users who receive low scores, and suggestions in comments. Like any fine art, there is no right or wrong. Anything goes. Simply because text books and other people may prefer a specific lighting, focus, etc, doesn't necessarily mean that it is the correct way to take a picture. The whole purpose of photography, for me at least, is to enjoy myself, and to create images that I am pleased with. The key word here is I. If you're working for the praise and respect of others, then you're doing it for all the wrong reasons. It's an expression. Not every expression is going to be taken in by the masses, and I've found that it's the case the majority of the time. The key is to tailor your abilities to your personal aesthetics, rather than to sway the votes of people you're likely never to come in contact with other than on this web site. Mellow out and have some fun with it.
 08/14/2003 06:25:50 PM · #18
The photo I have gotten the most favorites on is the one that has also gotten the highest number of 1s. I think that just goes to show that the best pieces are the ones that are also most critisized. Imagine how boring it would be if everyone agreed on the top three places of every challenge!

Message edited by author 2003-08-14 18:26:05.
 08/15/2003 07:48:09 AM · #19
Ok Im back. Just want to start off by saying I'm not complaining about my low score. Sure I expected a 5.5 and Im now under 5. Thats fine I got reasons why. I just wanted to hear others opinions on how and why they judge the way they do, especially in regards to how much weight is given to the most technical aspects of the shot.

I mentioned that others have said what a good photo I took. Those people dont judge photos often and neither do I normally which is probably the problem. For all I know they were using my inexperience as a measure.

When I took the photo I said what a good photo it would make for the challenge of "desolate" and took it quickly. What I shouldve done is said this subject will make an excellent photo and will also fit the challenge.

I now realize what a limiting view I took and how much better my shot could have been as a photo in general. Adjusting the contrast and sharpening of my photo makes it better but doesnt make it more desolate.

This is why I was supprised at my score because I vote according to how a photo communicates the challenge topic. If a good photo doesnt get the topic across I vote it lower but still say what a good photo it is. To me thats the point of having a challenge and what separates this site from a POTD/W/M/Y site.

This doesnt change the fact that the photo is not all it could be and that to me is the most important thing. I am going to revisist that subject when the weather permits and do it justice.

Thanks to eveyone who reads this and to those who replied. Its been emotional.

PS. I still think that breaking the rules should be encouraged and can produce wonderful inspiring results. However if everyone did it the rules would soon appear more desirable.

This, however, doesnt apply to my photo - it was just poorly executed and suffered from no post processing. Its therefore not all it can be.

Thanks for showing me the light - much appreciated. Take care.
 08/15/2003 08:03:19 AM · #20

I'm all about breaking the rules. Well, I'm not really good at it because my results are normally poo, but I love it when people can pull it off well.

And just remember that the majority of the people that vote on photos here are just as amateur as your friends. We're not "judges" just by virtue of our membership here -- myself DEFINITELY included. That's not meant as a jab at anyone, but just to say that it's often best to get a wide range of skill levels' opinions, and this is a great place to do that.

Just keep shooting for the best -- photos that make an impact to yourself. The biggest problem with poorly technically-executed photos is that the bad image detracts from the subject and, therefore, the impact that it makes is lessened.

rob

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