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05/17/2006 02:34:44 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by sdunsmoor:
While I agree there are alot of pics that DNMC, is it really necessary to put JUST that in a comment? I think the low votes for those of us trying to think outside the box, not the planet, get the point by the sub 4 scores.
Do we really need to start another thread how unconstructive the lone "DNMC" comment is? If you put it in a comment, there better be more than that. I mean, doesn't it pI$$ YOU off when someone leaves one of those? |
I think it pisses people off when someone is deducting 7 out of 10 possible points because of DNMC and not because you felt it was DNMC.
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05/17/2006 02:38:30 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
At least I finally got a comment saying that it DNMC, but I'm still curious as to why... |
Likewise.
I think this shot shows that I know what a 'traditional still life' looks like (is this what you asked me to link to Bosborne?)...
...but my submission for this challenge doesn't fail my 'still life' values either.
I composed and adjusted the elements of the shot precisely, judged the lighting to provide the desired effect and placed the camera in relation to them to achieve the final image.
The voters obviously do not see it my way!
Votes: 49
Views: 80
Avg Vote: 5.0000
Comments: 5 |
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05/17/2006 02:40:25 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by sdunsmoor:
While I agree there are alot of pics that DNMC, is it really necessary to put JUST that in a comment? I think the low votes for those of us trying to think outside the box, not the planet, get the point by the sub 4 scores.
Do we really need to start another thread how unconstructive the lone "DNMC" comment is? If you put it in a comment, there better be more than that. I mean, doesn't it pI$$ YOU off when someone leaves one of those? |
I think it pisses people off when someone is deducting 7 out of 10 possible points because of DNMC and not because you felt it was DNMC. |
Just to play Devil's advocate, if the challenge is "Photograph a flower in a garden" and someone enters a sunset shot from a cruise ship, is there ANY way to justify giving that image anything EXCEPT a 1 or a 2? Even if it's the best-ever sunset-from-a-cruise-ship-shot of all time?
That's a pretty extreme example, I admit, but...
R.
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05/17/2006 02:41:33 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
So if it's only one item then that doesn't mean it's still life, even if you use lighting to achieve a mood? And if somebody doesn't think it's meets challenge, how many points is it fair to vote down? At least I finally got a comment saying that it DNMC, but I'm still curious as to why... |
This isn't any kind of endorsement of how people should vote, but it's what I tend to do:
On a first pass, I only rank 1-8. Any photo that meets the challenge will have a base score of 5, and any photo that does not will have a base score of 3. Then I'll score around those numbers as my impression strikes me, mostly based on quality and creativity: +1 for a good impression of each, and -1 for the bad; an 8 is a photo I want to see again in the second pass. So a mediocre photo that is DNMC will usually get a 3. A good photo that is DNMC will get a 4.
The second pass is strictly for photos I've rated 8+. I might take a second look at my 7's, but that's as far as I'll go. I go through the 8's and bump anything that stands out up to a 9. Then I go through the 9's and bump anything that stands out as a personal favorite to a 10.
And for what it's worth, I tend to allow as broad an interpretation of the challenge as possible, but might strip a point if I think it's really pushing it. If I really can't imagine how you got to the conclusion that your photo might meet the theme, then it's DNMC. I don't nitpick. Likewise, I'm not going to give a 1 or 2 to a really excellent DNMC photo.
I also never leave a plain DNMC comment. If you kinda got there but still missed the mark, I'll spell out my objection for you.
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05/17/2006 02:54:00 PM · #80 |
I don't really want to hijack this thread--just borrow it for a minute. I am voting on the lenscap challenge, and have run across several that don't have a lenscap as the subject, but I am amazed at the number that don't have a lenscap anywhere in the shot! I haven't looked at still life yet, but I think my votes given average is going down because it seems like less people have met the challenges lately. I now return you to your still life discussion...
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05/17/2006 03:03:05 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I don't really want to hijack this thread--just borrow it for a minute. ... |
Try here...
Lenscap scores |
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05/17/2006 03:03:11 PM · #82 |
On a first pass, I only rank 1-8. Any photo that meets the challenge will have a base score of 5, and any photo that does not will have a base score of 3. Then I'll score around those numbers as my impression strikes me, mostly based on quality and creativity: +1 for a good impression of each, and -1 for the bad; an 8 is a photo I want to see again in the second pass. So a mediocre photo that is DNMC will usually get a 3. A good photo that is DNMC will get a 4.
The second pass is strictly for photos I've rated 8+. I might take a second look at my 7's, but that's as far as I'll go. I go through the 8's and bump anything that stands out up to a 9. Then I go through the 9's and bump anything that stands out as a personal favorite to a 10.
And for what it's worth, I tend to allow as broad an interpretation of the challenge as possible, but might strip a point if I think it's really pushing it. If I really can't imagine how you got to the conclusion that your photo might meet the theme, then it's DNMC. I don't nitpick. Likewise, I'm not going to give a 1 or 2 to a really excellent DNMC photo.
I also never leave a plain DNMC comment. If you kinda got there but still missed the mark, I'll spell out my objection for you.
This is pretty much how i've been voting after my first post on here. It's hard for me to give an incredible shot a low score, but at the same time a shot that doesn't meet the challenge shouldn't have a chance of winning the challenge. Someone before posted that a comment of just DNMC was annoying...and I think they are right. You should put in the comment what makes it not meet the challenge (which I just started doing). At least telling the person why they didn't meet the challenge helps that photographer learn for later challenges.
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 15:06:03. |
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05/17/2006 03:15:06 PM · #83 |
I'm happy to get any comment, including just "DNMC." That's very helpful to me. If I get twenty comments saying "DNMC" I'll have a really good idea why my score is under 4!
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05/17/2006 03:26:54 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by sdunsmoor:
While I agree there are alot of pics that DNMC, is it really necessary to put JUST that in a comment? I think the low votes for those of us trying to think outside the box, not the planet, get the point by the sub 4 scores.
Do we really need to start another thread how unconstructive the lone "DNMC" comment is? If you put it in a comment, there better be more than that. I mean, doesn't it pI$$ YOU off when someone leaves one of those? |
I think it pisses people off when someone is deducting 7 out of 10 possible points because of DNMC and not because you felt it was DNMC. |
Just to play Devil's advocate, if the challenge is "Photograph a flower in a garden" and someone enters a sunset shot from a cruise ship, is there ANY way to justify giving that image anything EXCEPT a 1 or a 2? Even if it's the best-ever sunset-from-a-cruise-ship-shot of all time?
That's a pretty extreme example, I admit, but...
R. |
In this particular example, I probably would have scored such an image a 3. However as you mentioned that's not a typical example of a DNMC entry. For a typical DNMC entry I'll deduct 2 points, sometimes 3 but usually I end up not deducting anything. I figure since we just have a 1-10 scale and this being a learning site about photography, I should concentrate my deductions on things pertaining to improving one's ability to take a good photograph.
Edited to add: To clarify my hypothetical vote on your example, I would score it that low only because I would have a real hard time convincing myself that the photographer's intentions were pure. It's impossible to gauge that with any entry that wasn't so clear cut.
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 15:30:51.
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05/17/2006 03:35:39 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by yanko:
In this particular example, I probably would have scored such an image a 3. However as you mentioned that's not a typical example of a DNMC entry. For a typical DNMC entry I'll deduct 2 points, sometimes 3 but usually I end up not deducting anything. I figure since we just have a 1-10 scale and this being a learning site about photography, I should concentrate my deductions on things pertaining to improving one's ability to take a good photograph. |
Voting should definitely include how well the photo meets the challenge. Otherwise, every challenge turns into a free study. Numbers tell us very little about how and what to improve, whereas comments actually offer insight.
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05/17/2006 03:39:41 PM · #86 |
Oh, I'm definitely in favor of comments and I did say I deduct for DNMC but like I said, I'll let it pass on occassion if it's not clear cut in my mind. I just don't agree with the severe penalty for it that some people give. Heck, deduct 9 points on mine if you think the lighting is bad. I rather have that extreme than a DNMC penalty extreme but of course that's just my opinion. :)
Edited for silly spelling mistakes.
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 15:41:34.
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05/17/2006 03:43:59 PM · #87 |
Here is the classic example of DNMC. My lowest score ever. Actually, now I am thinking how come I missed brown on this one.
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05/17/2006 04:00:45 PM · #88 |
on the flip side this challenge contains my first ever submission, it is doing poorly.
Votes: 55
Views: 73
Avg Vote: 4.4909
Comments: 0
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 05/17/06 03:10 pm
I had hoped for a better score, i expected somewhere around 5-5.5 and was hoping for many comments. Having such a low score in such a muddled field gives me the impression that many people probably found my entry DNMC which actually makes me feel better about the score.
The truth is that as i was voting myself i was giving super low scores and that I am sure was universial and I suspect a lot of people with decent photos will be dragged down by the massive low scores being given out. I am however unhappy with the lack of comments but if they are all going to say "DNMC" then it's just as well. |
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05/17/2006 04:02:54 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by Morry32:
...The truth is that as i was voting myself i was giving super low scores and that I am sure was universial and I suspect a lot of people with decent photos will be dragged down by the massive low scores being given out. ... |
Bummer. :( |
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05/17/2006 04:11:24 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Oh, I'm definitely in favor of comments and I did say I deduct for DNMC but like I said, I'll let it pass on occassion if it's not clear cut in my mind. I just don't agree with the severe penalty for it that some people give. Heck, deduct 9 points on mine if you think the lighting is bad. I rather have that extreme than a DNMC penalty extreme but of course that's just my opinion. :)
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I think you and karmabreeze have it right. A slight deduction is fine if it's a bit of a stretch, and a larger one if it truly DNMC.
DNMC is not constructive criticism on it's own. I could accept "DNMC - 3 points" because then I would know that the 6 I received would have been a 9 if it met your challenge definition. I still like the idea of comments required for any vote less than 4.
On another rant, I think we tend to be more accepting of DNMC based on how good the picture is. Here is a perfect example. This one is a slight stretch for the challenge, in my opinion. But it's still a great picture and won a ribbon.
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05/17/2006 04:17:12 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
On another rant, I think we tend to be more accepting of DNMC based on how good the picture is. Here is a perfect example. This one is a slight stretch for the challenge, in my opinion. But it's still a great picture and won a ribbon.
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Ah, but look at the expression and posture of the model. You can tell that rain is "new" to him. You don't need the title to make that connection. To me that's the difference between a creative interpretation of a challenge and a creative attempt to shoehorn an unrelated picture into a challenge.
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05/17/2006 04:23:05 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
On another rant, I think we tend to be more accepting of DNMC based on how good the picture is. Here is a perfect example. This one is a slight stretch for the challenge, in my opinion. But it's still a great picture and won a ribbon.
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Ah, but look at the expression and posture of the model. You can tell that rain is "new" to him. You don't need the title to make that connection. To me that's the difference between a creative interpretation of a challenge and a creative attempt to shoehorn an unrelated picture into a challenge. |
I didn't get "new" from that. "Fresh", maybe, but that's not the same thing, as confused as people seemed to be by that difference. It's a good picture, but as I felt it was a stretch I scored it a 5. *shrug*
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05/17/2006 04:25:20 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
On another rant, I think we tend to be more accepting of DNMC based on how good the picture is. Here is a perfect example. This one is a slight stretch for the challenge, in my opinion. But it's still a great picture and won a ribbon.
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Ah, but look at the expression and posture of the model. You can tell that rain is "new" to him. You don't need the title to make that connection. To me that's the difference between a creative interpretation of a challenge and a creative attempt to shoehorn an unrelated picture into a challenge. |
I didn't get "new" from that. "Fresh", maybe, but that's not the same thing, as confused as people seemed to be by that difference. It's a good picture, but as I felt it was a stretch I scored it a 5. *shrug* |
That's where we disagree, but for once, I seem to have the majority opinion. That's a switch! :)
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05/17/2006 04:25:24 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by mad_brewer:
On another rant, I think we tend to be more accepting of DNMC based on how good the picture is. Here is a perfect example. This one is a slight stretch for the challenge, in my opinion. But it's still a great picture and won a ribbon.
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Ah, but look at the expression and posture of the model. You can tell that rain is "new" to him. You don't need the title to make that connection. To me that's the difference between a creative interpretation of a challenge and a creative attempt to shoehorn an unrelated picture into a challenge. |
What I got out of that photo was the rain was refreshing not that it was new. Of course he could have been raised in a cave his entire life never to have come out until now. :P
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05/17/2006 04:27:10 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Why is it there are unending nitpicking discussions about what does and does not not meet a challenge but few on how to take a good photograph for one? |
Because we of inquiring minds wish to listen and learn about all manner of things. If we are not 100% certain about the meaning of still life, then a challenge with that title is an excellent time to discuss, debate and learn.
What worries me more is those for whom these discussions are disturbing. That free and open debate troubles them is not a good sign. We all need to expand our minds, share views (right or wrong) and debate the finer points of life, in this case photographic life. To not do so breeds the justification to limit free speech and eventually fundamentalism, dictatorships and extremism.
This has been a good thread; informative, interesting and agression-free - thanks to the OP for raising it in the tone and manner that was used
Brett |
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05/17/2006 04:27:43 PM · #96 |
Now I'm confused as to what people are talking about, when it comes to a slight deduction for not meeting the challenge. So here are two scenarios:
1) Someone does this amazing photo of a fighter jet doing some sort of trick. It's a perfect photo. Great lighting, great color, great composition, great everything. Normally a perfect 10 photo and it's entered into the Still life challenge (obviously not a still life), I should give it a 1 or 2 point deduction (9 or 8)?
2) Someone enters a fruit bowl, with nice color composition, nice lighting, not an amazing photo, but not a bad photo. It's a 5 quality photo.
So you are saying that the fighter jet photo should have a better chance of winning the CHALLENGE OF STILL LIFE because it's a better photo, although it in no way relates to the challenge? In that case, why even have a challenge topic...just submit your best work to date.
Message edited by author 2006-05-17 16:28:52. |
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05/17/2006 04:28:30 PM · #97 |
Votes: 63
Views: 84
Avg Vote: 6.0000
Comments: 3
As far as how I vote, if it is a great picture but doesn't meet the challenge, it usually gets a 4, maybe a 5 if it is exceptional. If it meets the challenge and has a flaw or two, but isn't blurred or badly composed, it will probably get a higher score than one that DNMC. That's just my way of doing it.
I try to artfully look and even come back to shots I'm not sure of.
This is a learning curve for some. My interpretation of "environmental portrait" is not the same as two comments I've gotten, but that's ok. I certainly consider it DNMC, but we are all subjective.
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05/17/2006 05:15:38 PM · #98 |
1) Someone does this amazing photo of a fighter jet doing some sort of trick. It's a perfect photo. Great lighting, great color, great composition, great everything. Normally a perfect 10 photo and it's entered into the Still life challenge (obviously not a still life), I should give it a 1 or 2 point deduction (9 or 8)?
That would seem to indicate that there's a question of degree. Something so obviously way off meeting the challenge wouldn't get over a 5 in my book. But then, when you get a picture like the guy in the rain (which I gave an 8, albeit in the first challenge I ever voted on), the challenge invites a bit of pushing, what with 'old' and 'new' being relative terms with multiple connotations. In that case I think it's ok to be charmed by picture quality.
2) Someone enters a fruit bowl, with nice color composition, nice lighting, not an amazing photo, but not a bad photo. It's a 5 quality photo.
That may be a bit of a 64,000 dollar question. It depends what you mean by 'nice'. I suppose what you're describing is a picture that imitates well but has no character of its own. Maybe technical qualities should get it up to 6 or 7, but at the end of the day a cliché is a cliché...
Sez he who just entered one in the still life challenge :-) |
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05/17/2006 07:58:57 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by raish:
1) Someone does this amazing photo of a fighter jet doing some sort of trick. It's a perfect photo. Great lighting, great color, great composition, great everything. Normally a perfect 10 photo and it's entered into the Still life challenge (obviously not a still life), I should give it a 1 or 2 point deduction (9 or 8)? |
I wouldn't give a photo like that anything higher than 4. We are emotionally stunned by some of the exceptional images that are nevertheless DNMC and it's hard not to love them with a loving vote.
When I am thumbnail-reviewing my votes I think of the entrants who toiled hard and frustratingly to meet the spirit of the challenge. If it's a particularly difficult challenge, then great results might be difficult to come by. I feel for them and I vote DNMC images down - for them. No way should they be disadvantaged for putting that effort in - successful or not.
Brett |
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05/17/2006 07:59:07 PM · #100 |
I am relativly new to DPC so Iam notentering every challenge (not that I could if I wanted to) Ipassed on Still Life but figured I would vote anyway.
What am I missing?
still life
n., pl. still lifes.
1. Representation of inanimate objects, such as flowers or fruit, in painting or photography.
2. A painting, picture, or photograph of inanimate objects.
still'-life' (stĭl'līf') adj.
Not bugs, not people, not trains, etc.... Oh well! At least I am not alone!
Lenscap had a few entries that lacked a lenscap soi should have expected this :)
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