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05/19/2006 02:30:56 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
I have felt that every photo I have entered has "met the challenge". I have gotten a few DNMC comments, usually with a reason stated. I usually can see where they are coming from even though I may not agree. I do not get upset by this at all. The reaction I don't like is when I say "I would like this shot if it was more in focus" and I get a PM telling me how uneducated I am for not realizing that is what the photog was going for and how wonderful the shot is because of it. People can take their shots and process them any way they want to, my way is not the "right" way, only what I like. Sometimes an effect (focus, lighting, DOF etc.) is done on purpose, sometimes it is because the photog has not mastered some skill. There is no way to know during the voting so comments are given on what is seen.
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I have given similar comments with the intent of trying to be helpful. Sometimes I do mention that it's my opinion. These are challenges we enter, and most of us want to take better pictures. If the message doesn't get through, that's valuable information.
To PM and say you are uneducated is inexcusable. |
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05/19/2006 02:33:22 PM · #177 |
albc28. To me, there are two aspects to a photograph. There is the technical aspect and the artistic aspect. For some of us, we are still trying to get a handle on the first part, technically oriented sorts of comments are generally helpful.
On the other hand, sometimes decisions are made for the artistic value of a shot. My recent shot for yellow was an example of this for me. A lot of people felt I needed to put the subject on thirds. I shot it off thirds for a minimalistic approach that I felt worked for mood. It was intended to have an aspect of nonconformance to the feeling provided by hitting the 'power points'.
Some people tried to tell me about thirds. I didn't like that... Was it helpful? It told me what people were thinking. However, I didn't find it personally helpful because I won't change my style of shooting such that I will ALWAYS follow the "rule of thirds".
Did I appreciate their time in commenting? Yes. And I thanked them and did my best to return comments.
There is a difference between being grateful for someone's expression and actually deriving something beneficial from it.
If I have a picture that I want nice/not nice type feedback, I will mark it helpful. Generally on my challenge pictures, I am shooting to improve my photographic skills. Nice/not nice is usually only important to me on pictures that themselves are emotionally important to me.
Sometimes people are off on their comments. No big deal. If they miss the intent, they miss the intent. Nobody can adequately deduce everything going on in the mind of a photographer at the time that they made a picture. Nor should this even be a goal. The commenter is only able to give their own thoughts. This is all that can be expected. The way we take comments, both comments that work and comments that don't is up to us.
Those who are endeavoring to supply more that is beneficial in their comments are trying to increase the helpfulness of the site in general.
Those that give short comments like "nice" and "DNMC" are trying to increase the friendliness of the site in general. They also help us to understand very minor points about the picture such as how some people like them or why some people don't. As has been mentioned before, such things are definitely of lesser importance.
One of these types of comments makes a difference when I stick the viewfinder up to my eye.
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 14:43:39. |
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05/19/2006 02:42:39 PM · #178 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by chaimelle:
When I make a comment I am giving my opinion. ... Meeting the challenge is very important to me and DNMC usually results in a 1-3 vote, so low votes do not always mean a "bad" photo. |
You said earlier,"I have been commenting less recently because so many people seem to resent the comments"
I suggest you do not comment, as you have stated here, when you vote an image 1-3 because you felt it did not meet the challenge.
There is nothing wrong with your view, it is how you feel. But don't ever expect a photographer to react well to it and making such a comment will do little to improve their photography. Might be best if you did not comment at all under those conditions. |
From your replies I assume you are totally happy with your work and do not need comments (especially from those who would find fault). It is most unfortunate that I cannot tell which are your entries so as to avoid commenting on them. |
I think you are missing my point. My point is that comments on failure to meet the challenge rarely, if ever, contribute to helping a photographer improve.
I will illustrate it with this example:
Chaimelle's comment on it:
"This could have been taken at night, it could also have been taken at noon. It's not a bad shot, but I don't feel it meets the spirit of the challenge."
I will say this once again, there is nothing wrong with your opinion. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.
My issue:
How do DNMC comments like this help the photographer to improve their craft?
There are any number of substantive areas you could have commented about... like composition, framing, image color cast, focus and/or the thick white border. You could have made suggestions to improve the photograph. That would have been more useful to the photographer. |
I think you have the wrong idea of what this site is about. This is DPC, it is a digital photo competition where we are given challenges to enter the learning and development is a by-product from the competition.
We are asked to vote according to the challenge topic and therefore comments about DNMC will be important for us to understand why we are getting a low score.
If want comments that are a critique you request one from the critique club or post your image in the forums after the challenge.
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05/19/2006 03:50:19 PM · #179 |
DNMC is the most important aspect of voting. If it is obious DNMC I give and I think everyone should give a 1. It doesn't matter at all if it is a great photo, if it doesn't meet the challenge.
Given this, DNMC should be left as a comment. It says that as a photographer wanting to compete in challenges you need to follow the rules or you will be voted down.
I think what is unacceptable is the counter to a comment saying "yeah it does meet challenge." that has no value to anyone.
Lastly before this turns rant like is, when people take a shot they claim is thinking outside of the box, it is still DNMC regardless of the title. Photos titles cannot be the only thing that ties the image to the theme of the challenge. |
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05/19/2006 04:01:34 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
DNMC is the most important aspect of voting. If it is obious DNMC I give and I think everyone should give a 1. It doesn't matter at all if it is a great photo, if it doesn't meet the challenge.
when people take a shot they claim is thinking outside of the box, it is still DNMC regardless of the title. Photos titles cannot be the only thing that ties the image to the theme of the challenge. |
This is not meant to be instigating but does the standard you set for DNMC apply to this shot? Was your score too high (no pun intended)? |
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05/19/2006 04:04:31 PM · #181 |
For anyone in the Still Life Challenge:
I am not voting on the challenge. I have no entry in the challenge. If you would like a comment/critique, PM me the title and a short description of your image and I will comment.
A caveat - still lifes are images typically shot in a contained environment. As such, the expectation of the technical merits is higher than for other challenges. At least it would be in my voting. Which is why I didn't vote. Or enter. :) |
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05/19/2006 04:11:28 PM · #182 |
well, it looks like i'm part of a minority (not unusual lately). i looked at every photo in the still life challenge and i only found a few...well, maybe more than a few...that do not meet the challenge. on the whole, i see lots of creative interpretations of a still life and even more that are just downright spot on the traditional interpretation of a still life. they may not be carbon copies of something the Old Masters painted but there are many more schools of art than the traditional look of the Old Masters.
try going to some of the big stock sites like Corbis or Getty, type in "still life" and see what comes up. there are a wide variety of styles and settings that fall into that category from the traditional to the more modern minimalistic, zen like photos.
here are a couple of more modern looking examples of still life photography.
Mark Robert Halper
David Bishop
just my opinion, of course. your mileage may vary. :)
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05/19/2006 04:14:05 PM · #183 |
Sher, don't you realize that by offering helpful, informative links you might influence the voting??? If taken too far, DPC scores might start making sense!
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05/19/2006 04:26:02 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by timfythetoo:
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
DNMC is the most important aspect of voting. If it is obious DNMC I give and I think everyone should give a 1. It doesn't matter at all if it is a great photo, if it doesn't meet the challenge.
when people take a shot they claim is thinking outside of the box, it is still DNMC regardless of the title. Photos titles cannot be the only thing that ties the image to the theme of the challenge. |
This is not meant to be instigating but does the standard you set for DNMC apply to this shot? Was your score too high (no pun intended)? |
I actually gave this a ten, I loved the out of the box interpretation as well as the beautiful colors of the image.
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05/19/2006 04:26:10 PM · #185 |
| Man, this thread just gets better and better! I threatened to give the flower people ones in the enviromental portrait challenge, but I've really only ever given one person a one, and that was because the picture made me mad. I just feel like if we're seeing the picture in a challenge, the photographer liked something about the picture, possibly liked above several possiblities, took time to post process, etc. By the time we see it the person has an emotional investment in that image. I got some DNMC comments in the 2 second challenge because there was no way to know for sure that I'd exposed my image for 2 seconds. Sure there is. My EXIF information. Anyway, giving someone a one is the equivellent of saying "This picture sucks!" Especially, if you don't back it up with a comment. I just don't think you should do that to someone unless the image actually does suck or you have reason to think it was meant to be offensive. |
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05/19/2006 04:26:43 PM · #186 |
Ha Ha. I was hoping someone would noitce that entry. I knew ahead of time that it didn't meet challenge. I just happen to have shot a garden that week and wanted someone to see it. It didn't do well, it finished about 10 spots from teh bottom. I had the most positive comments for that one. My favorite was the chron bomb comment. It got what it deserved, positive comments and a low score.
As for the two links for still life. Those are definately still life no question, even by old master's standards. Its the sunsets and flowers still on the stem, and the candids that get me, what a waste of my time. If there was a 0, I would vote that.
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05/19/2006 04:28:38 PM · #187 |
Originally posted by sher9204:
well, it looks like i'm part of a minority (not unusual lately). i looked at every photo in the still life challenge and i only found a few...well, maybe more than a few...that do not meet the challenge. on the whole, i see lots of creative interpretations of a still life and even more that are just downright spot on the traditional interpretation of a still life. they may not be carbon copies of something the Old Masters painted but there are many more schools of art than the traditional look of the Old Masters.
try going to some of the big stock sites like Corbis or Getty, type in "still life" and see what comes up. there are a wide variety of styles and settings that fall into that category from the traditional to the more modern minimalistic, zen like photos.
here are a couple of more modern looking examples of still life photography.
Mark Robert Halper
David Bishop
just my opinion, of course. your mileage may vary. :) |
I went back and counted about 30 IMHO that just DNMC but when you look at it thats only 10% which is on par for most challenges.
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05/19/2006 04:31:41 PM · #188 |
Raggamuffin,
I disagree. A 1 doesn't mean that a photo sucks, it just shouldn't win a contest. Example, if you were entering a painting contest described ahead of time that it was an "oil painting" contest. If you entered an amazing water color painting, you wouldn't do well.
Its the same here. If the challenge is single light source, and it states in the guidelines that it has to be a artificial single lightsource and someone enters a sunset, its an easy 1. Even if it is the most amazing sunset ever seen by man, still a 1.
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05/19/2006 04:38:21 PM · #189 |
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Raggamuffin,
I disagree. A 1 doesn't mean that a photo sucks, it just shouldn't win a contest. Example, if you were entering a painting contest described ahead of time that it was an "oil painting" contest. If you entered an amazing water color painting, you wouldn't do well.
Its the same here. If the challenge is single light source, and it states in the guidelines that it has to be a artificial single lightsource and someone enters a sunset, its an easy 1. Even if it is the most amazing sunset ever seen by man, still a 1. |
Then, you should still leave a comment saying why you gave it a one. Because let's face it. Nothing lower than a 6 is going to win, so you could still give the person a... I don't know... four, and tell them it would have scored much higher but you didn't think it met the challenge. |
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05/19/2006 04:41:18 PM · #190 |
Speaking of still life (remember that?)--I asked my son's art teacher today whether one object could be considered a still life and she said yes, depending on how the overall picture looks. I will probably re-evaluate my votes on one item entries and bump the scores if they look artistic and have "still life"-like lighting. I have a long way to go on commenting (which I still intend to do in spite of this thread!)
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05/19/2006 04:46:02 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:
Originally posted by Jmnuggy:
Raggamuffin,
I disagree. A 1 doesn't mean that a photo sucks, it just shouldn't win a contest. Example, if you were entering a painting contest described ahead of time that it was an "oil painting" contest. If you entered an amazing water color painting, you wouldn't do well.
Its the same here. If the challenge is single light source, and it states in the guidelines that it has to be a artificial single lightsource and someone enters a sunset, its an easy 1. Even if it is the most amazing sunset ever seen by man, still a 1. |
Then, you should still leave a comment saying why you gave it a one. Because let's face it. Nothing lower than a 6 is going to win, so you could still give the person a... I don't know... four, and tell them it would have scored much higher but you didn't think it met the challenge. |
I mostly agree with jmnuggy, only I have a range of 1-3 for DNMC shots. I would rather more people automatically give a 1 for DNMC than take 1 or 2 points off whatever score they would give which could result in giving an 8 or 9.
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05/19/2006 04:57:01 PM · #192 |
Ragamuffin,
Your right about nothing under a 6 will ever win. That is true, but remember only 3 shots ribbon.
Giving a 4 because you don't want to give a 1 that it deserves for not meeting challenge is unfair. It says to the photographer that the shot had potential when i didn't. It is an inflated score to say the least.
I like to keep the philosophy that most people will say they like something when they don't to spare feelings. That just gives someone a false sense of confidence and stunts their learning drastically because they think they are on the right track.
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05/19/2006 04:57:58 PM · #193 |
Wow! What gorgeous photography, especially Halper's. Thanks for sharing.
Note:
You can bet the farm, though, that the images with humans in the frame would get DNMC "1" votes from some DPCers that feel they know more about still life photography than Halper and Bishop.
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05/19/2006 05:03:38 PM · #194 |
| your right, a still life shouldn't have a person in it, that is portraiture. Still life is an object of objects arranged in a creative way. |
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05/19/2006 05:05:19 PM · #195 |
I will let my "lack of education" show by admitting I don't know who Halper and Bishop are. Certainly excellent work, but are they authorities on the still life genre? In fact, Halper's says still life/product shots.
Edit to add that their portfolios look like they were taken for advertising purposes, not for artistic "still life" purposes.
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 17:09:16.
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05/19/2006 05:05:25 PM · #196 |
none of those sites have people in any of the still life shots. There are a few backgrounds of product shots w/ people, but not one w/ the subject being a human.
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05/19/2006 05:08:46 PM · #197 |
My mistake
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 17:09:53.
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05/19/2006 05:09:25 PM · #198 |
I love how this argument about DNMC only deals with extreme examples when those aren't the typical DNMC entries we get in challenges.
Even Jmnuggy's example which he even admits to was DNMC yet it was considered a perfect image one that was 100% within the theme according to keegbow. And that's why it just floors me that people dish out 1s so easily. Ever think you might be spectacularly wrong about an image's validity in a challenge? Hence why I only deduct a couple of points because I know I am no expert and I could be wrong. Handing out ones is like the death penalty to an image. At best those should be handed out very rarely when doubt is completely non-existent and you spent more than 2 seconds thinking about it. Anyway, just my two cents.
Edited for clarity.
Message edited by author 2006-05-19 17:11:30.
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05/19/2006 05:13:20 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by yanko:
I love how this argument about DNMC only deals with extreme examples when those aren't the typical DNMC entries we get in challenges.
Even Jmnuggy's example which he even admits to was DNMC yet it was considered a perfect image one that was 100% within the theme according to keegbow. And that's why it just floors me that people dish out 1s so easily. Ever think you might be spectacularly wrong about an image's validity in a challenge? Hence why I only deduct a couple of points because I know I am no expert and I could be wrong. Handing out ones is like the death penalty to an image. At best those should be handed out very rarely when doubt is completely non-existent and you spent more than 2 seconds thinking about it. Anyway, just my two cents.
Edited for clarity. |
Maybe keegbow was wrong? If the challenge says take a shot of a basketball and you submit a styrofoam cup (to borrow an earlier example) someone might think it meets the challenge, but I bet 99.9% would say it doesn't.
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05/19/2006 05:24:28 PM · #200 |
Originally posted by chaimelle:
Originally posted by yanko:
I love how this argument about DNMC only deals with extreme examples when those aren't the typical DNMC entries we get in challenges.
Even Jmnuggy's example which he even admits to was DNMC yet it was considered a perfect image one that was 100% within the theme according to keegbow. And that's why it just floors me that people dish out 1s so easily. Ever think you might be spectacularly wrong about an image's validity in a challenge? Hence why I only deduct a couple of points because I know I am no expert and I could be wrong. Handing out ones is like the death penalty to an image. At best those should be handed out very rarely when doubt is completely non-existent and you spent more than 2 seconds thinking about it. Anyway, just my two cents.
Edited for clarity. |
Maybe keegbow was wrong? If the challenge says take a shot of a basketball and you submit a styrofoam cup (to borrow an earlier example) someone might think it meets the challenge, but I bet 99.9% would say it doesn't. |
And I agree with that. I didn't make it very clear in my above post but I have in others. And that is I have no issue with people handing out very low scores for DNMC provided it's the type of example you just gave, which is very clear cut. However, I disagree with those that say 10% of those images exist in challenges. Maybe 1 or 2 per challenge in my opinion. If you are stretching the theme a bit it shouldn't get penalized the same as someone that totally dismissed the theme altogether. That's my point.
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