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01/01/2007 12:10:27 PM · #1 |
The following is a passage from Deuteronomy 13 in The Bible. In essence it basically seems to instruct people to kill anyone who tries to convert you to a faith with gods "that you have not known". Furthermore, it seems to go on to say that if the people of a town are "led astray" into worshipping other gods "that you have not known", then you must kill everyone in that town, and their livestock, too. I have highlighted certain parts in bold print.
Here is the passage:
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, [a] both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God.
Comments? |
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01/01/2007 12:18:33 PM · #2 |
I think the world would be a more pleasant and tolerant place had the people applied to the prophet Deuteronomy what he preached ... : (
I could do without most of Leviticus too ... |
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01/01/2007 12:38:49 PM · #3 |
| I could do without most of the space based religious bs in general |
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01/01/2007 02:55:20 PM · #4 |
Thanks for the warning! My brother reads that book...
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01/01/2007 03:48:54 PM · #5 |
Comments?
I think you're just trying to stir up controversy. |
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01/01/2007 05:25:16 PM · #6 |
| What is your point? Religion is divisive and intolerant? No shit. If you flip back a few pages you'll find out that snakes talk. |
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01/01/2007 05:42:34 PM · #7 |
Well that is part of Israel's side. Add to that, on the other side, the believe that anyone who doesn't believe as you should be killed in a holy war. Put them all together with limited resources. Mix infrequently. Let simmer for a few thousand years. And, presto, the Middle-East as we know it.
Religion ==> Darwinism at its finest!
David |
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01/01/2007 05:54:47 PM · #8 |
| Not really rules anyway... more like guidelines... ;P |
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01/01/2007 05:59:58 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Comments?
I think you're just trying to stir up controversy. |
Ummm... well obviously it's a controversial topic. But on what basis do you suggest that my only reason for posting is to "stir up controversy?"
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01/01/2007 06:05:46 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Comments?
I think you're just trying to stir up controversy. |
Ummm... well obviously it's a controversial topic. But on what basis do you suggest that my only reason for posting is to "stir up controversy?" |
What other reason could you have?
It's not like the passage you quote is a recent editorial. You could have posted a passage from the bible about peace and love or turning the other cheek, forgiveness, redemption, compassion or anything else positive, yet you chose this one. |
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01/01/2007 06:16:25 PM · #11 |
| I only find it mildly ironic that the people who seem quickest to point out religion's record of tolerance have the most spite-filled and derogatory posts... |
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01/01/2007 06:28:16 PM · #12 |
Many who have "problems" with the Old Testament commands fail to understand that just as a new "Will & Testament" supersedes the older "Will & Testament", so the Bible's New Testament supersedes the Old Testament. In regards to false prophets, The New Testament says ( in 1 John, 1-3 ):
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God."
As you can see, the killing of false prophets and the destruction of cities is no longer required to prevent God's people from being led away from their God by deceivers. Since the coming of Christ, false prophets and false teachings are easily recognized by virtue of this simple test - a test that did not exist prior to Christ's coming. |
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01/01/2007 06:41:14 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I only find it mildly ironic that the people who seem quickest to point out religion's record of tolerance have the most spite-filled and derogatory posts... |
Cast the first stone, doc. |
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01/01/2007 06:49:40 PM · #14 |
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01/01/2007 07:55:29 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Comments?
I think you're just trying to stir up controversy. |
Ummm... well obviously it's a controversial topic. But on what basis do you suggest that my only reason for posting is to "stir up controversy?" |
What other reason could you have?
It's not like the passage you quote is a recent editorial. You could have posted a passage from the bible about peace and love or turning the other cheek, forgiveness, redemption, compassion or anything else positive, yet you chose this one. |
I didn't wake up this morning and think to myself "Gee, how can I stir up controversy in the DPChallenge forums today?"
This is a topic that has been troubling me for several months (or longer), and I think it warrants discussion.
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01/01/2007 08:15:24 PM · #16 |
Stop living through the Bible, and start living with it.
In other words...Get a life.
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01/01/2007 08:20:49 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Keith Maniac:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Comments?
I think you're just trying to stir up controversy. |
Ummm... well obviously it's a controversial topic. But on what basis do you suggest that my only reason for posting is to "stir up controversy?" |
What other reason could you have?
It's not like the passage you quote is a recent editorial. You could have posted a passage from the bible about peace and love or turning the other cheek, forgiveness, redemption, compassion or anything else positive, yet you chose this one. |
I didn't wake up this morning and think to myself "Gee, how can I stir up controversy in the DPChallenge forums today?"
This is a topic that has been troubling me for several months (or longer), and I think it warrants discussion. |
So you posted it on a photography site.
That would hardly be the best choice for discussing matters of faith. |
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01/01/2007 08:44:36 PM · #18 |
I think Keith perhaps is wanting to start a discussion among people he knows. It makes just as little sense for him to raise this issue on a religious forum where he knows nobody.
My point Router, is that intolerance is more likely a product of human nature rather than religion. People have struggled for millenia how to both subscribe to a faith that holds a belief in real truths with real consequences and at the same time exhibit love towards those who do not agree. I'm certainly not going to sit here and tell you Christianity has come through with a stellar record.
Still, I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm an idiot. |
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01/01/2007 08:49:51 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by RonB:
As you can see, the killing of false prophets and the destruction of cities is no longer required to prevent God's people from being led away from their God by deceivers. Since the coming of Christ, false prophets and false teachings are easily recognized by virtue of this simple test - a test that did not exist prior to Christ's coming. |
It would have been much easier if this important bit of analysis had been written down somewhere obvious, rather than leaving it up to us to interpret.
So - false prophets had to be murdered, until we had the true prophet, after which we know all other prophets are fake (and therefore we can ignore them). I must admit, this appears to be nothing more than sophistry.
How will we ever know another "true" prophet (if jesus was a "true" prophet, and not one of the deceivers)?
Given that there were millions of people around the world at the time, was everyone imputed with this bizarre but apparently critical bit of knowledge (that they no longer need to worry about and should not kill false prophets)? Are we supposed to believe that God condemned all other peoples to hell by accident of geography?
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01/01/2007 08:57:21 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Are we supposed to believe that God condemned all other peoples to hell by accident of geography? |
Logically the answer can be "yes". In fact, Christians of the reformed tradition would say so. They would point to a passage in Romans as a pretty plain English (er, Greek) passage to answer your question...(I will point out that not all Christians would subscribe to this answer. In fact, most American Christians would disagree.)
Originally posted by Paul, to the Romans:
"Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh:
"I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" |
EDIT: Made the passage look pretty.
Message edited by author 2007-01-01 21:04:59. |
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01/01/2007 10:08:35 PM · #21 |
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01/01/2007 10:13:10 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Kazoonhieht |
Kazoo bless you! |
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01/01/2007 10:14:38 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...intolerance is more likely a product of human nature rather than religion. |
Doc, first I just want to say it's so refreshing to read your posts. Even though I may not always agree with you, your posts are always constructive and rational. It's a breath of fresh air after reading some of the other posts.
Having said that, though, I think that the biblical passage in the original post shows that intolerance is a product of religion. Deuteronomy 13 (a religious text) teaches us that we should not only be intolerant, but should actually kill those who worship other gods.
So doesn't that show that intolerance is a product of religion?
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01/01/2007 10:29:20 PM · #24 |
Thanks Keith. I posted daily for nearly two years on a moderated atheist site. I was one of probably less than five christians who was at least tolerated on the site (and hopefully respected). Anyway, I quickly learned how to have a reasonable discussion.
Anyhoo...
One possible answer is something called Dispensationalism. Ya, big word. Anyway, it's another idea that is not held by all Christians. In a nutshell the idea says that not all rules apply to all times. In fact, the history of the world can be divided into "chunks" where different rules had effect. The chunk you were talking about (and I don't know the name it's given by adherents) was a time in which God was carving out His chosen people from the rest of the world. It was critical to instill the idea that they were different. There are weird rules in Leviticus and Deuteronomy (not a name of a prophet, BTW, to whomever got it wrong up above) such as you weren't allowed to wear clothes spun from two different materials. (I'm not sure if spandex/lycra would have been a stonable offense for other reasons as well.) The idea behind a rule like that is to instill this "don't mix" mentality. There were so many ideas about God or the gods at the time things would naturally devolve quickly unless the Israelites could remain separate.
So, in that light, it makes sense somewhat. Sure it seems harsh. I don't really know many Christians who relish the fact this stuff is in our history (not many I want to hang with at least), but it is there and does not mean the rest of the messages or truths in our faith have no merit. |
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01/01/2007 10:38:47 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Originally posted by RonB:
As you can see, the killing of false prophets and the destruction of cities is no longer required to prevent God's people from being led away from their God by deceivers. Since the coming of Christ, false prophets and false teachings are easily recognized by virtue of this simple test - a test that did not exist prior to Christ's coming. |
It would have been much easier if this important bit of analysis had been written down somewhere obvious, rather than leaving it up to us to interpret. |
It was, and is, obvious, but as it is written (1 Corinthians 1:18-25):
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
So - false prophets had to be murdered, until we had the true prophet, after which we know all other prophets are fake (and therefore we can ignore them). I must admit, this appears to be nothing more than sophistry. |
Jesus was not THE "true prophet", He was A "true prophet". There were other "true" prophets before him - they were not "all" "fake", and there is no reason to ignore them.
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
How will we ever know another "true" prophet (if jesus was a "true" prophet, and not one of the deceivers)? |
1) They will acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh from God
2) Their teachings and prophesies will not contradict earlier prophesies or Christ's teachings
3) Their prophesies will all come true
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Given that there were millions of people around the world at the time, was everyone imputed with this bizarre but apparently critical bit of knowledge (that they no longer need to worry about and should not kill false prophets)? |
At the time the "critical" bit of knowledge was imputed, the Israelites had been under Roman Rule for quite some time, and were not permitted by any means to kill prophets without permission from the Roman government ( which, as can be seen from Christ's trial before His crucifixion, was not easily obtained ), and were certainly not allowed to destroy entire Roman cities at will. In that regard, the bit of knowledge was not really "critical".
As for being given that bit of knowledge, just as the original commands were given to the "chosen", so the epistle of 1 John was given to the "chosen". The difference is that those chosen to receive the Old Testament commands were the entire Israelite population, but those chosen to receive the new Testament instructions were only those who accepted that Christ was the incarnate Son of God ( because, obviously, those who did not believe in Christ, would not have accepted the stipulation that every true prophet would acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh. )
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
Are we supposed to believe that God condemned all other peoples to hell by accident of geography? |
No one is condemned to hell by a capricious whim of God. Each one makes his or her own choice as to what they will believe, and that choice determines whether their eternity will be spent in hell or in heaven. When the entire earth was flooded, Noah and his family chose to believe God, and were saved; when Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed, Lot and his family chose to believe God, and were saved ( except for his wife, who chose to look back ); when the city of Jericho was destroyed, Rahab chose to believe that the God of the Israelites was the true God, and was saved; etc.
FWIW, the ultimate choice a person WILL make is known to God before he/she is conceived ( God is, after all, onmiscient ). |
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