|
| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/02/2007 05:13:58 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by stdavidson:
The quality of submissions into DPC challenges has improved dramatically over the years, but NOT the scoring. |
Perhaps the expectations have risen as well. If more quality images are being submitted then that becomes the new norm. Makes it more challenging for photos to rise above the average. |
I believe the REAL reasons DPCers vote the way they do are:
1-The average DPCer votes most images in the low 5s because most of their submissions are scored in the low 5s.
|
I believe the REAL reason (he-he) DPCers vote the way they do is:
1- Average on a scale of 1 (bad) to 10 (good) is 5.5 (technically) - so most votes are going to be between 5 and 6. Average is relative as pointed out earlier.
|
|
|
|
05/02/2007 05:33:55 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I believe the REAL reason (he-he) DPCers vote the way they do is:
1- Average on a scale of 1 (bad) to 10 (good) is 5.5 (technically) - so most votes are going to be between 5 and 6. Average is relative as pointed out earlier. |
The only country in the world that uses a mathematic mean for an average is England. But even by England's standard a 6.4 is in the upper end of "average". At DPC anything above 6.0 is considered incredibly good. Only the very best photographers at DPC maintain an average above 6. That is average by England's standard and below average in almost every other country in the world.
I think you live in Virginia USA and if you were raised under the USA's K-12 grading standard then to be compatible with your own experience then your average score given should be 7 or 8. 7.5 is middle "C" by US standards.
Btw, your average score given doesn't even approach the mathematical mean of 5.5 you said should be the average.
With practically every vote you make you tell DPC photographers that their work is subpar. Is that your intention? If so, then you are voting correctly.
Message edited by author 2007-05-02 17:35:37.
|
|
|
|
05/02/2007 05:38:21 PM · #28 |
Steve, just a question. Why would the scores at DPC have to be compared to grading? The scoring here is not grading, doesn't even come close. It's voting. It's people giving a numeric value to the image. It doesn't compare to grading in schools.
I don't think people are telling the photographers their work is subpar, because the highest scoring images week after week are somewhere around a "C" in the educational system. It's not the same scale, and you can't compare grading to voting on images (IMHO, of course) :)
|
|
|
|
05/02/2007 05:46:29 PM · #29 |
I decided that my scoring didn't use enough of a range, and was truly clustered around 4-7. So effective with the current challenges, my starting point is now 6 rather than 5. I like a lot of what I saw in the triptych and pi challenges, and so will probably skew higher just from those alone.
Message edited by author 2007-05-02 17:47:48. |
|
|
|
05/02/2007 05:47:10 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by ursula:
Steve, just a question. Why would the scores at DPC have to be compared to grading? The scoring here is not grading, doesn't even come close. It's voting. It's people giving a numeric value to the image. It doesn't compare to grading in schools.
I don't think people are telling the photographers their work is subpar, because the highest scoring images week after week are somewhere around a "C" in the educational system. It's not the same scale, and you can't compare grading to voting on images (IMHO, of course) :) |
That's a fair question. The answer is simple, scoring is numerical just like grading is numerical which makes it the common thread that virtually every DPCer can relate to from their own experience within their own culture or country.
When people ask me for a critique of their images its always because it scored lower than they expected. It is NEVER because they say that when subjectively comparing their image to the others around it that it seems out of place. Never.
Message edited by author 2007-05-02 17:47:42.
|
|
|
|
05/02/2007 05:53:51 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by ursula:
Steve, just a question. Why would the scores at DPC have to be compared to grading? The scoring here is not grading, doesn't even come close. It's voting. It's people giving a numeric value to the image. It doesn't compare to grading in schools.
I don't think people are telling the photographers their work is subpar, because the highest scoring images week after week are somewhere around a "C" in the educational system. It's not the same scale, and you can't compare grading to voting on images (IMHO, of course) :) |
That's a fair question. The answer is simple, scoring is numerical just like grading is numerical which makes it the common thread that virtually every DPCer can relate to from their own experience withing their own culture or country.
When people ask me for a critique of their images its always because it scored lower than they expected. It is NEVER because they say that when subjectively comparing their image to the others around it that it seems out of place. Never. |
OK, I can see your point. Yet, many things are numeric, and I wonder if you're right that it's the only common thread that every DPCer can relate to. Couldn't it be argued that the DPC scale is more of a bell shaped evaluation, where most items fall towards the middle? The bell curve is something that most people in the world can also relate to (I think ??).
As for people asking for critiques because they think their images are better than what others see them as, that doesn't have anything to do with grading - it's human nature for most of us to think we're better than we really are.
Message edited by author 2007-05-02 17:55:09. |
|
|
|
05/02/2007 06:24:25 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by ursula:
OK, I can see your point. Yet, many things are numeric, and I wonder if you're right that it's the only common thread that every DPCer can relate to. Couldn't it be argued that the DPC scale is more of a bell shaped evaluation, where most items fall towards the middle? The bell curve is something that most people in the world can also relate to (I think ??). |
I completely agree with you about the bell curve because that relates to the common experience of all DPCers the world over.
Carrying that thought to its logical conclusion though supports my contention that DPCers vote below world norms. England is the only country in the world that centers its bell curve at 5.5, the mathematical mean. Every other country, including Canada, center their bell curves above the mean. Most DPCers have to be indoctrinated to the English standard which they are not used to. And DPC's standard bell curve is even much narrower around the mean than England's. I'm pretty sure no small percentage of inactive DPCers are inactive because they could not adjust to the DPC standard and thus became disillusioned.
A bit of Canadian Trivia
Here is a bit of British Columbia trivia for you. Did you know that most PC based student record keeping systems in the world trace their roots to Vancouver, BC? My specialty in information systems (computer programming) is K-12 student management systems and I've seen this connection with different computer programs time and time again.
|
|
|
|
05/02/2007 06:31:32 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by ursula:
OK, I can see your point. Yet, many things are numeric, and I wonder if you're right that it's the only common thread that every DPCer can relate to. Couldn't it be argued that the DPC scale is more of a bell shaped evaluation, where most items fall towards the middle? The bell curve is something that most people in the world can also relate to (I think ??). |
I completely agree with you about the bell curve because that relates to the common experience of all DPCers the world over.
Carrying that thought to its logical conclusion though supports my contention that DPCers vote below world norms. England is the only country in the world that centers its bell curve at 5.5, the mathematical mean. Every other country, including Canada, center their bell curves above the mean. Most DPCers have to be indoctrinated to the English standard which they are not used to. And DPC's standard bell curve is even much narrower around the mean than England's. I'm pretty sure no small percentage of inactive DPCers are inactive because they could not adjust to the DPC standard and thus became disillusioned.
A bit of Canadian Trivia
Here is a bit of British Columbia trivia for you. Did you know that most PC based student record keeping systems in the world trace their roots to Vancouver, BC? My specialty in information systems (computer programming) is K-12 student management systems and I've seen this connection with different computer programs time and time again. |
I had no idea (about the BC connection). BC rules, yeah!!!! That's what I'm supposed to say, right :)
Anyway. Why would the bell curve carried to its logical conclusion have to be addressed to grading as in the educational system? Wouldn't the bell curve concept as we use it at DPC be a more standard, normal way of thinking for most people? Could it be said that the educational system is maybe skewed to its own way of thinking that's outside of most people's everyday experience?
In other words, in life, in most things, there is a lot of normalcy. Sort of like the average, the big bump in the middle of the bell curve, the 5.5 at DPC. A few things are wonderful, memorable, strike us as fantastic, and we love them. A few things are truly horrible, disgusting, and we hate them. That's a normal bell curve of human experience. Different than the grading system, yes, but common to most of humanity I would think. Just a thought :) |
|
|
|
05/02/2007 07:44:49 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by ursula:
I had no idea (about the BC connection). BC rules, yeah!!!! That's what I'm supposed to say, right :)
Anyway. Why would the bell curve carried to its logical conclusion have to be addressed to grading as in the educational system?
|
Because that meets the normative expectations of literally 100% of all DPCers regardless where they live.
Originally posted by ursula:
Wouldn't the bell curve concept as we use it at DPC be a more standard, normal way of thinking for most people?
|
No. In fact, it's foreign to all DPCers except those in England where the bell curve standard is designed to match the median. Even in England though DPC's bell curve is different in a couple important ways:
1-DPC's bell curve is BELOW the mathematical median. Always has been.
2-DPC's bell curve is very narrow meaning that exceptional performance is rarely recognized. That is why we never see averages above 9.
It is doubtful DPCs norm meets many group standards that the typical DPCer would be familiar with.
What evidence exists that supports the idea that a bell curve centered at a mathematical median is "standard" and "normal", especially one as narrow as DPC's?
Originally posted by ursula:
Could it be said that the educational system is maybe skewed to its own way of thinking that's outside of most people's everyday experience?
|
More logically the opposite is true; that DPC's standard is skewed to ITS own way of thinking and that DPC is outside the experince of most people's everyday experience.
Originally posted by ursula:
In other words, in life, in most things, there is a lot of normalcy. Sort of like the average, the big bump in the middle of the bell curve, the 5.5 at DPC. A few things are wonderful, memorable, strike us as fantastic, and we love them. A few things are truly horrible, disgusting, and we hate them. That's a normal bell curve of human experience. Different than the grading system, yes, but common to most of humanity I would think. Just a thought :) |
As soon as we assign numbers we automatically assign a grading standard that DPCers the world over know and understand.
If we wanted something "Different from a grading system" then instead of assigning numbers we would assign qualities to our DPC evaluations. We don't.
|
|
|
|
05/02/2007 07:46:47 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Originally posted by ursula:
I had no idea (about the BC connection). BC rules, yeah!!!! That's what I'm supposed to say, right :)
Anyway. Why would the bell curve carried to its logical conclusion have to be addressed to grading as in the educational system?
|
Because that meets the normative expectations of literally 100% of all DPCers regardless where they live.
Originally posted by ursula:
Wouldn't the bell curve concept as we use it at DPC be a more standard, normal way of thinking for most people?
|
No. In fact, it's foreign to all DPCers except those in England where the bell curve standard is designed to match the median. Even in England though DPC's bell curve is different in a couple important ways:
1-DPC's bell curve is BELOW the mathematical median. Always has been.
2-DPC's bell curve is very narrow meaning that exceptional performance is rarely recognized. That is why we never see averages above 9.
It is doubtful DPCs norm meets many group standards that the typical DPCer would be familiar with.
What evidence exists that supports the idea that a bell curve centered at a mathematical median is "standard" and "normal", especially one as narrow as DPC's?
Originally posted by ursula:
Could it be said that the educational system is maybe skewed to its own way of thinking that's outside of most people's everyday experience?
|
More logically the opposite is true; that DPC's standard is skewed to ITS own way of thinking and that DPC is outside the experince of most people's everyday experience.
Originally posted by ursula:
In other words, in life, in most things, there is a lot of normalcy. Sort of like the average, the big bump in the middle of the bell curve, the 5.5 at DPC. A few things are wonderful, memorable, strike us as fantastic, and we love them. A few things are truly horrible, disgusting, and we hate them. That's a normal bell curve of human experience. Different than the grading system, yes, but common to most of humanity I would think. Just a thought :) |
As soon as we assign numbers we automatically assign a grading standard that DPCers the world over know and understand.
If we wanted something "Different from a grading system" then instead of assigning numbers we would assign qualities to our DPC evaluations. We don't. |
Hmmmm. I have to think about this some more :) |
|
|
|
05/02/2007 08:22:57 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by ursula:
In other words, in life, in most things, there is a lot of normalcy. Sort of like the average, the big bump in the middle of the bell curve, the 5.5 at DPC. A few things are wonderful, memorable, strike us as fantastic, and we love them. A few things are truly horrible, disgusting, and we hate them. That's a normal bell curve of human experience. Different than the grading system, yes, but common to most of humanity I would think. Just a thought :) |
I agree ursula!
Originally posted by stdavidson:
As soon as we assign numbers we automatically assign a grading standard that DPCers the world over know and understand.
|
Aren't we assigning numbers now, on a scale of 1-10?
If you want to go with a system more known as a school grading scale then how about this:
A 10, A- 9, B 8, B- 7, C 6, C- 5, D 4, D- 3, F 2
I'd wager (if I was a gambling man) that if you put a "grade" scale in place, where the voters didn't know the numeric value, the results would still be what they are today, with a bell curve around 5.5 (perhaps 6 to 6.25 given the shortened scale).
What's the big fuss about anyway?! As long as everyone is judged the same way, using the same scale, it all works out in the end. |
|
|
|
05/13/2007 08:22:34 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
If you want to go with a system more known as a school grading scale then how about this:
A 10, A- 9, B 8, B- 7, C 6, C- 5, D 4, D- 3, F 2
I'd wager (if I was a gambling man) that if you put a "grade" scale in place, where the voters didn't know the numeric value, the results would still be what they are today, with a bell curve around 5.5 (perhaps 6 to 6.25 given the shortened scale).
What's the big fuss about anyway?! As long as everyone is judged the same way, using the same scale, it all works out in the end. |
But your scale isn't like the school grading scale, it is like the DPC voting scale but with letters...
The school grading scale (when scorred 1-10) here in the U.S. is:
A+ 10, A 9, B 8, C 7, D 6, F 5, F 4, F 3, F 2, F 1, F 0
The big fuss is that no one likes to fail.
I would bet that most folks here who feel that they did a decent job on their submission to a challenge expect, at least on a subconscious level, to get at least a "C".
The fact that a lot people list "getting a 7.0 average" as a goal in their profiles lends some support to this theory. Typically I would expect to see a goal of 9.0 or 10, not 7.0, this too should make you stop and go "Hmmmm".
The simple solution is changer voting from 1-10 to 1-5.
the five point or 5 star system in much more universal and people are much more comfortable with 3 out of 5 being an average score.
Just my thoughts.
-J
|
|
|
|
Current Server Time: 03/12/2025 03:20:08 PM  |
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 03/12/2025 03:20:08 PM EDT.
|
