honesty in comments - DPChallenge Forums

01/28/2004 12:23:25 PM · #1

I wonder if people really want honest feedback on their pictures.

This usually occurs to me when I'm faced with something that I personally find an inspid choice of subject, badly lit, technically screwed up and just obviously terrible.

I can't think of a helpful comment beyond something like 'try reading an introductory photography book' or 'try looking at your pictures - really looking'

I'm sure if I actually expressed how I felt about over 50% of the entries I voted on, I'd be metaphorically dragged out into the street and publically flogged.

So I just vote low and move on - 1s, 2s seem to flow from my mouse these days.

I could post just the score, but then I'm sure there would be demands for explainations - and then the 'it was mindnumbingly bad' reply would be used to accuse me of being elitist, unhelpful, unamerican or a terrorist (sorry - slightly wrong context, but you get the idea)

It is obviously then not my place to help those people entering those (in just my own personal opinion) images that should have been deleted before loading them onto the computer.

I don't see a way to give honest, critical feedback - any suggestions ?

01/28/2004 12:24:53 PM · #2

You can give me your honest opinion on my road sign picture!

01/28/2004 12:28:48 PM · #3

Originally posted by relgraphics:

You can give me your honest opinion on my road sign picture!

Its okay - the score seems about right. The composition seems mostly accidental - was the horse a considered part of your shot or it just happened to be there, for example ? Was there an attempt to find the decisive moment when the composition came together, or did you just happen to see the jackets and shoot off a frame without a whole lot of consideration ?

Canon EF-M 22mm f/2.0 STM Lens

01/28/2004 12:31:38 PM · #4

Actually the horse just happen to be there. I took several shots to see what I can come up with. They did not know I was taking pictures of them. I tought about the composition, but not well enough...obviously.

basia03

Canon PowerShot SX50 HS

01/28/2004 12:33:12 PM · #5

Originally posted by Gordon:

... just obviously terrible...So I just vote low and move on...

i do the same thing - there is nothing to say... if it was a waste of my time looking at a picture like that, i will not be spending any more of it trying to come up with a comment...

before entering any contest people with any kind of common sense would take a look at the previous submissions... if they don't have this kind of sense, there is nothing i can explain to them...

and yes, my first submission here was indeed pretty bad, and it is among the ones that scored the lowest at dpc, but still i don't believe it was as bad the ones i refuse to comment on...

PS: this has nothing to do with your picture, richie, just with what gordon said in general... the picture itself is not bad at all, just not very interesting to me, i gave it a 5 while voting...

Message edited by author 2004-01-28 12:40:50.

Spork99

Canon EOS M6 Mk II

01/28/2004 12:34:17 PM · #6

I think people want honest feedback, just not brutally honest feedback. There's a difference between a comment like:

"This is the most awful piece of crap I have ever seen"

and something like:

"I can see where you were going with this, but it really needs a lot more work technically and visually"

Both convey that the work is pretty bad, but the first does so without consideration of the photographer's feelings.

Personally, I try to find (I know it's hard to do sometimes) something positive to say before I highlight an images shortcomings.

On the other hand, sometimes I just find myself giving 1's & 2's on the really awful entries without comment because there just isn't time.

Rooster

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Sigma 28-105mm f/2.8-4.0 Aspherical for Canon

01/28/2004 12:35:50 PM · #7

Gordon,

the comment to rel is not as you originally stated you would leave comments. It's honest without being too harsh.

Of course you will always run the risk of getting hate (P)Messages. Mostly I think that if you were honest & critical then thats what people want. Not just 1's & 2's without explanations.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

01/28/2004 12:39:51 PM · #8

Rooster,

What do you think...honest and brutally honest is fine to me. No hard feeling here, I just want to learn.

drgsoell

Olympus C-750UZ

01/28/2004 12:54:07 PM · #9

I find myself making fewer comments on pictures lately. It seems that more of the ones I do make are compliments instead of critiques.

I may be a bit thin skinned when it comes to people replying to my comments with something like:

What's wrong with you? Can't you tell what I was doing?

One thing I have started doing is to go back after the challenge to pictures I commented on and seeing how my comments stack up against the others. I notice that I am seeing more parity when comparing my view with other folks' view. I find that is a great aid in helping me to improve my own work.

dsa157

Canon EOS-50D

01/28/2004 01:28:58 PM · #10

I think it is more difficult critiquing honestly on bad images when the challenge is anonymous. I say this because I find most beginners welcome good honest feedback as to how they can improve, but [begin generalization] folks who have been at it a while tend to bristle if you get too preachy in your comments [/end generalization]

As has been mentioned, though, a considered choice of words rather than the kneejerk "this is awful" reaction goes a long way. That said, it does get tiring writing the same suggestions over and over again even though the recipient might be seeing such comments for the first time.

Dave

moodville

Nikon D100

01/28/2004 02:17:33 PM · #11

Originally posted by dsa157:

I agree, it would be much easier to tell someone to use a tripod (for example) if we know they are a beginner, but that said if the obvious errors are such that a beginner would make them then maybe the person still needs to be told. Of course then you have the responses where the technique used was a deliberate attempt at creating a mood. I entered a soft focus shot once and was told to read my manual to know how to use my camera. I think all we can do is offer comments that we think may be helpful and leave it up to the photographer to decide if they truly are helpful to him/her.

Rooster

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Sigma 28-105mm f/2.8-4.0 Aspherical for Canon

01/28/2004 02:20:53 PM · #12

[quote=relgraphics] Rooster,

What do you think...honest and brutally honest is fine to me. No hard feeling here, I just want to learn

Technically, it's a nice shot but where are the street signs? It seems a bit too busy, the horse, the cars, the people in the BG, it's all a bit distracting. It's missing a good wow focal point. Something that grabs the viewer.

Message edited by author 2004-01-28 14:21:44.

Canon EOS-20D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/28/2004 02:22:51 PM · #13

I'd guess you'll get about equal responses for whatever you do, either directly or in the forums. If you leave honest comments, some people will appreciate it and some people will either PM you or post in the forums about rude comments or people "not getting it." If you vote low but don't leave a comment, there will be complaints about that, too. I'd say just do whatever you are most interested in doing.

Panasonic Lumix G VARIO 12-35mm F2.8 ASPH Mega O.I.S

01/28/2004 02:23:11 PM · #14

Originally posted by Rooster:

The picture that rel showed isn't one that I would consider giving a 1 or a 2 to though. It isn't terrible. It could may be be improved with some more thought or attention to the background but it had some interesting elements (people always help a picture) and some interesting composition (the repetition of the people) and so on - I can think of things that would improve it (e.g., having some eye contact or more of a focal point) but it doesn't fit the category of the ones that I don't even know where to start commenting on - look towards the bottom end of most challenges and you'll find better examples (and that doesn't meant the sometimes wacky or avant garde, or very off topic but still good images)

Message edited by author 2004-01-28 14:25:21.

wetland

Panasonic Lumix DMC GH3

01/28/2004 02:35:25 PM · #15

I appreciate honest, constructive critique...telling someone their shot is "not appealing" is subjective and debatable; saying they could have imnproved the image by enhancing contrast, cropping differently, etc. is constructive. Commenters also need to be willing to receive constructive response and explanation on their critique from the photographer also.
Whe I receive comments I perceive to be harsh, I first look at how the commenter has critiqued other images. If that's their style, so be it...the phrase "move on" comes to mind.

jonpink

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2

01/28/2004 02:41:22 PM · #16

Gordon, if you (or anyone else) gave me a 1 or 2 then I would want to know why. Every other score can be accounted for pretty much - 5's are run of the mill and 9's & 10's are just down to personal taste IMHO (have seen many a bad image being given 10's - mine included)

All in all, in an ideal world I would prefer to have comments from my 1's and 2's voters than the 'great shot' comments from the 8's9's&10'S

As for being harsh - firm believer in being cruel to be kind. Being nice and pussyfooting around doesn't do anyone many favours IMHO.

01/28/2004 02:44:27 PM · #17

I really like to see comments like the one given to me by e301 in my Thread. Personally I would like to see comments like this all the time no matter how awful my picture is. Tell me how bad it is and what I can do different or what you would have done! I welcome all comments!

01/28/2004 02:46:59 PM · #18

maybe I should just put the scores in for the 1s and 2s and see who contacts me...

welcher

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

01/28/2004 02:49:15 PM · #19

Betterphoto.com has a selection you can set in your profile for "give it to me till it hurts", or "take it easy on me, I'm beginning". Aside from the obvious compromises in anonymity (however slight), this might be an interesting solution for this site.

EddyG

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

01/28/2004 02:49:56 PM · #20

The problem is when people do leave "this is the way I really see it" comments, they get lambasted in the forums. Just like what happened with dertyklobb, even though a lot of his "negative" comments were spot-on, and probably more than one voter thought the same thing but would never say it in a comment...

01/28/2004 02:56:58 PM · #21

Maybe in your profile you can rate yourself on a scale of 1-newbie, 2-intermediate, -3advanced and along side a rating of 1 - honest 2 tactfully honest 3 tell me its great

and have these two ratings visible for commentors to know how to pitch the comments.

I'm a 1.5/1 on those scales... though I guess that brings up the immediate problem that probably more people think they are intermediate or advanced than actually are - I think we were here before when it came to having a split level challenge...

Message edited by author 2004-01-28 14:58:22.

welcher

Canon EOS-5D

01/28/2004 03:03:49 PM · #22

I dunno if the user level info is even necessary. Make it an either/or proposition. Either I want brutal honesty, or I want things sugar coated. Leave it up to the user to decide whether his skills (and psyche) are at a level that can handle honesty.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. It would at least get rid of the weekly threads of people complaining about harsh comments. (Obviously, it wouldn't get rid of either jerk commenters, or the folks that complain about them.)

nborton

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

01/28/2004 03:43:41 PM · #23

i feel people get too attatched to their pictures. people are commenting on a picture, not on the person directly. photography is subjective to personal tastes.

i think if everyone just said what they wanted to say, there would be much more commenting going on. right now people are too scared of getting PMs and bashed on the forums for it.

nborton

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

01/28/2004 03:54:46 PM · #24

Also, one additional thought. After watching American Idol recently, I think some people here (not all) suffer from the same delusional state that the contestants on that show suffer from. The delusion that they are better than they really are, and they cannot accept the fact that others are missing this greatness that they think is worthy of stardom.
What it comes down to is people are not being honest with themselves.

When you think youâ��ve made it, you never will.