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01/28/2004 04:09:59 PM · #26 |
I think the big key here from what I read is people want comments, but not a comment that hurts their feelings.
I have had my fair share of comments that I did not agree with and felt the person leaving the comment could have used some tact in leaving the comment.
What commenters need to do is look at the photo as it was their own and leave a constructive comment, point out a few good aspects of the photo and make suggestions on what to do to improve the shot.
Again this is all personal taste, but I would wrather get comments like:
I feel your white ballance is off or you over exposed the shot a little too much, nice composition and subject.
Nice photo, but the colors look off.
I dont like comments like this:
it doesnt work for me,
not a very good photo lacks interest
this has been done before, not very original
please THINK before you comment
James |
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01/28/2004 04:12:22 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
maybe I should just put the scores in for the 1s and 2s and see who contacts me... |
I've doen that in the past & I have never gotten any PM's for it. Of course I did wirte a bit more than just the vote. Soemthing like, sorry but this is way too dark & I dont get it.
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01/28/2004 04:15:29 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by jab119:
What commenters need to do is look at the photo as it was their own and leave a constructive comment, point out a few good aspects of the photo and make suggestions on what to do to improve the shot.
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If you go back to the original post, I was mainly referring to the ones where I couldn't in all honesty find any good aspects to the shot. If it were my own, even within the first week or so of picking up a camera, I'd delete it. That, to me, would be a constructive suggestion, because it might jar the photographer in to realising that they have some more work to do before achieving even a base line acceptable photograph.
There are some pictures were this may be harsh, but it is also true. Those are the pictures I typically give a 1 or a 2 to. But I doubt people would want to hear that - yet there are also those who want feedback on the 1s and 2s. hence the dilema, and question.
Message edited by author 2004-01-28 16:30:11.
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01/28/2004 04:27:42 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by jab119:
I think the big key here from what I read is people want comments, but not a comment that hurts their feelings. --James |
Hear, hear.
I don't mind criticism. If I was all that and a bag of chips Life Magazine would be knocking down my door, right? I'm all for knowing why images don't work for people, why something seems "off", why it lacks interest.
I don't leave very many comments strictly due to time restrictions - I always vote on all of the photographs for every challenge I enter (I think that has been the case, anyway) and plan to come back and leave comments but very often run out of time.
But I am resolved to comment on every score below "5" from now on. The least you can do, I think, when judging something at less than 50% is to explain why. Even if I have to vote in fewer challenges.
Lots of people are good photographers, have the technical skills down pat - but have yet to come to a style of composition and context which appeals to people. I am not so technically adept but I certainly want to understand what appeals to people. And no, I do not think that compromises the "art" aspect of what we do.
Catherine
Edited to add: But I also comment on other photos too - so a comment from me does not mean, per force, a low score.
Message edited by author 2004-01-28 18:10:30. |
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01/28/2004 04:31:55 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Catherine:
But I am resolved to comment on every score below "5" from now on. The least you can do, I think, when judging something at less than 50% is to explain why. Even if I have to vote in fewer challenges.
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yet when we do, there are threads started lambasting the person for stating the obvious or being tactless. People have been pretty much drummed off the site for telling the plain truth. Not being insulting, just being honest.
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01/28/2004 05:06:36 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
yet when we do, there are threads started lambasting the person for stating the obvious or being tactless. People have been pretty much drummed off the site for telling the plain truth. Not being insulting, just being honest. |
Exactly why I stopped adding my score and being honest. When I did do that in a challenge, I had around 15 PM's and one of those started a thread about negative comments; suffice to say the thread was heated and was locked, and that was the end of my honest comments.
Going back to the 'how do you rate yourself' topic. Well I think everyone thinks they are better than they really are - that is just human nature. I would be a 1.1 on your scale - having only started taking photographs since September 2002 - a mere year and a half. But also I think 2 or 3 of my images are better than 'beginner'.
However, this can be put down to me (the photographer) liking the subject - having emotional attachments to it etc etc, so to me it's better than to how it is to the general public (or the general DPC lot) so I think that is where the rate yourself gets tricky.
I think a lot of these threads & rants would disappear if people realised that DPC isn̢۪t a place to get an accurate indication of how good or bad your photography is, and think of it more as an incentive/inspiration to go do the thing you like best and shoot some pictures.
For me at least, it took quite a few challenges before the transition of 'My purpose of submitting to DPC is to see how well I can score' to 'My purpose of submitting to DPC is to learn to shoot different stuff, and learn to shoot it better'.
Look at it this way and ironically scores will probably get better and so will the sugar sweet coated comments.
Message edited by author 2004-01-28 17:09:54.
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01/28/2004 05:14:14 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by jab119:
I think the big key here from what I read is people want comments, but not a comment that hurts their feelings.
...
I dont like comments like this:
it doesnt work for me,
not a very good photo lacks interest
this has been done before, not very original
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I agree wholeheartedly with JAB. I don't let my feelings get hurt, but if someone says "it doesn't work for me" it's just so subjective. What if they're a jerk and then it's good that it doesn't work for them?
Bottom line: What's to be learned from the comment?
If the photo is so dreadful that you could write a paragraph on it - don't. Just say - focus is poor - or - color is very faded - or - need to crop out distracting items.
Wouldn't we all be happier getting many more comments, regardless of how sterile they seem to be when giving them, than reading a missive from someone with unknown (and possibly no) credentials?
Message edited by author 2004-01-28 17:14:38.
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01/28/2004 05:59:48 PM · #33 |
Yeah I have taken pictures for a long time, my favorite thing to do, Family and friends never give me bad comments they always like! So I always check the box for critigue, and I have gotten a lot of comments and low vote scores, when I look at the winning photos and compare them with mine I can see why I get comments and voted low. Please give it to me fully! There have been some I probably just shouldnt have submitted but I dont know I do it for the participation and for the satisfation of doing something with my life that I enjoy...... And even on some of my worse photos people have actually said they liked, wich makes me take the comments like "overexposed", "dont like", "is this for real", "blurry", ect...to next time pay attention to my photo while taken it and then processing too....Isnt that how we learn for Hobby or profession?
If you want to be successfull copy someone that already is but in your own way!
I could almost ramble on forever about this then yall would be telling me to shut up already and stop reading this! texttexttexttext
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01/28/2004 07:05:55 PM · #34 |
Gordon - I'm with you all the way on this one. Not to say that I'm some kind of expert or anything. I've limited the comments I've given to photos that have a composition that is worth it to the photographer to go back and try to take the shot again. You can fix a lot of things about a photograph. It's difficult to fix a photographer who doesn't have a good eye for composition. You can follow every rule in the book and still have a dull photo. The composition is the foundation of the photo. Its sort of like a house that way - If the foundation is still good, you can fix a worn out house. If the foundation is bad, no matter how much work you put into it, it will still fall down.
bob
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01/28/2004 07:43:41 PM · #35 |
| I'm a beginner, and I like honest and direct critique. It helps me learn and grow. I prefer that over the indiference I'm getting in the current Zodiac challenge: 100 votes and only 2 comments.... with an average of 5.025 |
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01/28/2004 10:13:11 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
I wonder if people really want honest feedback on their pictures.
This usually occurs to me when I'm faced with something that I personally find an inspid choice of subject, badly lit, technically screwed up and just obviously terrible. |
Nothing wrong with saying it exactly this way -- that is helpful, specific info IMO.
Originally posted by Gordon:
I can't think of a helpful comment beyond something like 'try reading an introductory photography book' or 'try looking at your pictures - really looking' |
This could possibly be helpful if one can get past feeling condescended-to.
The latter comment prefaced by the former could possibly work since the photographer would then know what you want them to study, but I think most people would find it irritating if presented in isolation. |
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01/28/2004 10:22:25 PM · #37 |
| yeah i agree, i think american idol is a great example... i think simon is often uses too harsh of language but he DOES tell the truth... if they are bad they know if... if he likes it he says... if a pictures IS really bad i want people to tell me. if they find SOMETHING that is good about it, and tellme that and stop i will think i am a perfect photographer....... which would NOT be the case. i guess it is hard to take all negative comments too.. but i think i would rather have critical comments than nice comments. .. anyhow.. yes i think it is important to say what we think in critiques. otherwise it is not a critique...and yes, all done in kindness and helpfulness... and no saying things are good when they are not, is not helpful. hmm yeah.. perhps from now on i think i will try to be perfectly honest in my statements. |
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01/28/2004 10:27:52 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
yet when we do, there are threads started lambasting the person for stating the obvious or being tactless. People have been pretty much drummed off the site for telling the plain truth. Not being insulting, just being honest. |
I disagree -- I think many/most of the people who have been publicly criticized for their commenting practices have been unnecessarily insulting, when they could have expressed the same opinions with tact and decorum and had their advice heeded instead of rejected. No matter how bad the photo, you need not be rude to be honest.
Compare the following (hypothetical) example:
A) I personally find the subject uninspiring and the background too busy. Colors and contrast seem a bit flat, and it looks like either you or the subject moved a bit, for which you then tried to compensate by oversharpening.
B) Why didn't you delete this before downloading to your hard drive and avoid wasting my time?
Message edited by author 2004-01-28 22:29:14. |
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01/28/2004 10:31:54 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
[quote=Gordon]
A) I personally find the subject uninspiring and the background too busy. Colors and contrast seem a bit flat, and it looks like either you or the subject moved a bit, for which you then tried to compensate by oversharpening.
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i think this would be a very good critique. |
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01/28/2004 10:33:35 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Gordon:
I wonder if people really want honest feedback on their pictures.
This usually occurs to me when I'm faced with something that I personally find an inspid choice of subject, badly lit, technically screwed up and just obviously terrible. |
Nothing wrong with saying it exactly this way -- that is helpful, specific info IMO.
Originally posted by Gordon:
I can't think of a helpful comment beyond something like 'try reading an introductory photography book' or 'try looking at your pictures - really looking' |
This could possibly be helpful if one can get past feeling condescended-to.
The latter comment prefaced by the former could possibly work since the photographer would then know what you want them to study, but I think most people would find it irritating if presented in isolation. |
i don't agree with that... if you just say technically screwed up.. how is that helpful.. what IS wrong technically.. is it unsharp, bad colors, poor composition.. all of the above. i would want to know more precise that just screwed up. |
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01/28/2004 10:34:34 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by leaf:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
A) I personally find the subject uninspiring and the background too busy. Colors and contrast seem a bit flat, and it looks like either you or the subject moved a bit, for which you then tried to compensate by oversharpening.
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i think this would be a very good critique. |
Right ... yet I didn't mention one single thing I liked about it. |
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01/28/2004 10:54:04 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by jab119:
I think the big key here from what I read is people want comments, but not a comment that hurts their feelings. |
Agreed. 100%
Originally posted by jab119:
I dont like comments like this:
it doesnt work for me,
not a very good photo lacks interest
this has been done before, not very original |
'it doesn't work for me' is a perfectly valid comment. For some, me included, it's a way of rephrasing 'I don't like this' in a less direct way. The issue of subjectivity has been raised before. Of course, we vote down entries we don't like. Isn't it fair simply to say so?
'not a very good photo lacks interest' is one of the most direct and appropriate comments for many entries here. It tells the challenger exactly why the vote was low. It might not give any idea of how to make it better, but at least that's better than having dozens of comments praising a shot while having a very low score.
Originality will always be a complex issue here. For some, DPC might be the first place they see water droplets used artistically. Others are very well aware of the limitless potential for image browsing on the net and for copying, adapting and adopting images as the basis for their own entries here. Being told that one's entry is not original may kick the challenger up the proverbial a bit. Happened to me. |
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01/28/2004 11:27:21 PM · #43 |
| just as a result of this discussion i am going to go and give critics to the 10 lowest images i placed in the zodiac challenge... perhaps we ALL should :) |
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01/29/2004 12:19:38 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by nborton:
i feel people get too attatched to their pictures. people are commenting on a picture, not on the person directly. photography is subjective to personal tastes.
i think if everyone just said what they wanted to say, there would be much more commenting going on. right now people are too scared of getting PMs and bashed on the forums for it.
Also, one additional thought. After watching American Idol recently, I think some people here (not all) suffer from the same delusional state that the contestants on that show suffer from. The delusion that they are better than they really are, and they cannot accept the fact that others are missing this greatness that they think is worthy of stardom.
What it comes down to is people are not being honest with themselves. |
In my opinion, everything quoted above describes the situation perfectly.
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01/29/2004 12:31:56 AM · #45 |
I always try to mentions something good about a shot (true, it is hard for some, really hard). If I give a suggestion I ALWAYS (or most always) say something good.
I don't mind the preachy comments or harsh ones at all. I know most puople have good intentions when commenting. |
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01/29/2004 12:46:21 AM · #46 |
Here's an honest comment, but one I wouldn't want to actually write on any of the entries.
Right now, I'm going through the Zodiac challenge. Far, far too many are just simple, boring shots of an object which fits the challenge, not even an attempt at making the shot interesting. How do I rephrase that nicely? |
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01/29/2004 02:02:26 AM · #47 |
| I don't konw about most people, but I love when I receive some comments that say something's wrong with my pic. I mean, I don't want there to be something wrong, but if it's something I can fix, I'm gonig to try 10x harder, to focus on that area as well for the next shoot. I actually get a little dissapointed if it's all "good pic" like comments. |
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01/29/2004 06:55:06 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by Koriyama:
Here's an honest comment, but one I wouldn't want to actually write on any of the entries.
Right now, I'm going through the Zodiac challenge. Far, far too many are just simple, boring shots of an object which fits the challenge, not even an attempt at making the shot interesting. How do I rephrase that nicely? |
I would say something like this.
Great subject, this image fits the challenge perfectly!
Critique-
In my opinion, I feel this image could be improved by doing a few different things:
The angle you're shooting at, while being a nice representation of your pet/animal/stray it just doesn't stand out as being unique. By either getting down lower or having the dog/sheep/rabbit (ad nauseam) actually facing the camera slightly you might be able to add another level of interest to the subject.
The lighting seems a bit flat overall. This could be improved by trying to bring the animal into a darker room and using a soft yet fairly bright light source. This would give the fur/coat/fins/wool a bit more texture and an overall softer feel.
OR if there's blatant use of on camera flash...
You were apparently using your on camera flash to light your subject. While this isn't always a bad thing, when you have your subject standing directly in front of a white wall, it casts a very distracting shadow, which makes this image more of a snapshot than a work of art. Try to keep your backgrounds uncluttered and free of anything your subject/flash could cast a shadow on.
Of course this is strictly my opinion, so please take it for what it's worth.
I hope this helps,
Quadrajet
That's kind of how I do it.
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01/29/2004 08:48:27 AM · #49 |
I always try very hard to give a complete critique, with both bad and good points that I see - this is why my Critique Club ones are rather lengthy.
At the same time, when I mention areas that I personally think could be improved, the language I use is purposefully non-combative and wrapped in a thin layer of fluff. Similar to the premise that 'a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down'.
I don't think I'm softening my stance on what I think is in need of work, I'm merely softening the delivery.
That said.. I find it very interesting that some people, even some who regularly complain that they don't get enough real critiques, have a pattern of only finding those that are complimentary - helpful. In fact, you can see by looking at their helpful vs total comments a pattern of gushing, positive comments being thought of as helpful and any critical (well thought out or not) as not being received in the same manner.
Its a hypocrital stance IMO.. interesting, but hypocrital all the same.
But people will do and say what they will, and I'll continue to do my critiques the same and hope they are found useful in some small way.
- Sia :)
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01/29/2004 09:08:09 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by Koriyama:
Here's an honest comment, but one I wouldn't want to actually write on any of the entries.
Right now, I'm going through the Zodiac challenge. Far, far too many are just simple, boring shots of an object which fits the challenge, not even an attempt at making the shot interesting. How do I rephrase that nicely? |
That challenge was the motivation of my original post...
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