Bummer... two DNMC in the top three...

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

09/20/2007 01:23:04 PM · #52

I think it's a little unfair to throw the "dead horse" card in every time someone gets upet about this. The DNMC issue is clearly one many people are legitimately upset about.

In response to eschelar's solution, I think a much easier idea would be for each voter to have the option to flag a photo as DNMC. If a certain percentage flag an entry as such, it's sent to SC to consider it's removal from the challenge.

If this topic needs to be moved, so be it. But ignoring this problem will only lead to people leaving DPC.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

09/20/2007 01:34:17 PM · #53

Originally posted by JBHale:

But ignoring this problem will only lead to people leaving DPC.

What problem?
Do you mean the problem of people creating these posts after every challenge?

Or the problem of some creative people thinking way out of the box and the narrow way some voters interpret the challenge and are so quick to DNMC an image?

Or the problem of shoehorning an image into a challenge with a very descriptive title so that the image meets the challenge?

And again if you search the forums you will see a Trillion threads like this. OK maybe not a Trillion but a bunch.

Me I look at the description as a starting point a guide but when voting I try to let the image speak not my prejudices.

Beat that Dead Horse!

bmartuch

Nikon D7200

Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G

09/20/2007 01:37:56 PM · #54

Originally posted by JBHale:

Well said.

Like I said in an earlier thread, if you were a photographer for a newspaper and your boss told you to get a picture representing the particular challenge for an article they were writing, would your boss be happy with your choice, or would the boss tear it up and tell you to get it right next time.

I don't have any problem with the shot being out-of-the-box, but if you need a size 16 shoehorn to make it fit, thats not right. Personally, I think they should make all challenges extremely general so people could enter almost anything they want and it wouldn't need the proverbial shoehorn.

GueDesigns

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

09/20/2007 01:42:14 PM · #55

What does "dead horse" mean?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

09/20/2007 02:35:25 PM · #56

Originally posted by GueDesigns:

What does "dead horse" mean?

It's an old folk saying: "No point in beating a dead horse."

Goes back to the days when horses were a primary work animal, and if the horse just stopped working the owner would beat him with a stick to get him back on the job. Once you kill the horse, no point in beating it any longer.

R.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/20/2007 02:38:58 PM · #57

That flower is clearly "in the act of opening" -- that doesn't change just because the motion is too slow to show a motion blur at ordinary exposure speeds.

CaseyAllen

Canon EOS-30D

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

09/20/2007 03:26:44 PM · #58

After multiple threads and 3 pages of this one, I'd say this topic has been discussed to death, but I'll throw in my 2 cents just for the record.

First of all, every time I vote in a challenge, it does seem like there are some entries that, to me, do not meet the challenge (seems to be a pretty shared feeling around here). I try to be open on my interpretation; I know some people purposely don't look at the title because they believe the photo should convey the message itself. I think that the title enhances the photo, and sometimes I find that it makes the connection for me (because often times it's there, I'm too stupid to see it). Sometimes though, there are photos that even with the title, do not seem to meet the challenge. I will always give these a low vote, regardless of how good I think they are.

I do also understand that some people, like the creator of this post, take a more rigid interpretation of the rules. I would imagine that there are some who go in the opposite direction and vote more based on the photo quality than its relation to the challenge. In my opinion, these differences are part of what makes DPC fun. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and everyone gets one vote. In any society there will always be outliers who tend to have views that aren't shared by the masses. It's okay though, this is life!

I also don't think that this "problem" needs any corrective action. After each member votes, the majority wins. If most people think that the photo is of superior quality and is related to the challenge, it will do well, and this is exactly how it should be. Often times the photo that I think should win doesn't. However, this is not a dictatorship, it's a democracy. The point of the website is not who I think should win though, it's who the majority of voters thinks should win.

Node

Nikon D300

Tamron SP AF 17-35mm f/2.8-4 Di LD Aspherical IF for Nikon

09/20/2007 03:29:46 PM · #59

Originally posted by GeneralE:

That flower is clearly "in the act of opening" -- that doesn't change just because the motion is too slow to show a motion blur at ordinary exposure speeds.

And as I said in the Pre Challenge Opening thread, an opening in Clouds, rocks, forests etc are all dynamic and continue to open/move even if we are not able to see the difference, it all depends on your take on the challenge.

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

09/20/2007 04:44:30 PM · #60

Originally posted by CaseyAllen:

I also don't think that this "problem" needs any corrective action. After each member votes, the majority wins. If most people think that the photo is of superior quality and is related to the challenge, it will do well, and this is exactly how it should be. Often times the photo that I think should win doesn't. However, this is not a dictatorship, it's a democracy. The point of the website is not who I think should win though, it's who the majority of voters thinks should win.

Well, we don't know that the majority is fine with the voting system. We also don't know that they aren't. All I'm saying is that maybe the SC can organize something, like maybe a specific thread or forum where people can voice their concerns and have questions answered. Clearly this is a big issue with many people, and clearly, others don't want it cluttering up the forums.

CaseyAllen

Canon EOS-30D

09/20/2007 05:16:20 PM · #61

Originally posted by JBHale:

All I'm saying is that maybe the SC can organize something, like maybe a specific thread or forum where people can voice their concerns and have questions answered. Clearly this is a big issue with many people, and clearly, others don't want it cluttering up the forums.

That is a good idea, I second that motion.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

09/20/2007 05:21:33 PM · #62

Originally posted by JBHale:

Well, we don't know that the majority is fine with the voting system. We also don't know that they aren't.

Does not matter. This site is not a democracy and the voting system is 1-10. Keeps it very easy in my book.

If you just can't keep yourself from seeing an image as DNMC and you must let the photog know that, then click 1 and let it be done...

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

09/20/2007 07:52:30 PM · #63

Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:

Originally posted by JBHale:

Well, we don't know that the majority is fine with the voting system. We also don't know that they aren't.

Does not matter. This site is not a democracy and the voting system is 1-10. Keeps it very easy in my book.

If you just can't keep yourself from seeing an image as DNMC and you must let the photog know that, then click 1 and let it be done...

I hate to drag this on, but I don't feel it's fair to vote so low on a DNMC image. If it's a great image, I don't want to unfairly give it a low score. Personally, I don't vote at all on those images. But if the 2nd and 3rd place images were rated in the 4s, they might get the wrong idea about the quality of their pictures.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

09/20/2007 08:04:15 PM · #64

Originally posted by JBHale:

I hate to drag this on, but I don't feel it's fair to vote so low on a DNMC image.

Then don't.

zxaar

09/20/2007 08:39:38 PM · #65

Originally posted by JBHale:

I hate to drag this on, but I don't feel it's fair to vote so low on a DNMC image.

Another way of saying that voting on DNMC images shall be 4 or more (scale 4-10), since voting so low is bad for them. Think about the images those meet the challenge but voted on the scale of 1-10. Is not this unfair to those who try to meet the challenge.

09/20/2007 08:58:15 PM · #66

Originally posted by JBHale:

Personally, I don't vote at all on those images. But if the 2nd and 3rd place images were rated in the 4s, they might get the wrong idea about the quality of their pictures.

then I would have to say, with all due respect, that you are part of the problem, not the solution.

If you rate what you consider to be a DNMC above a 4, or do not vote on it at all, then how will they know it is DNMC? If a person submits a DNMC and gets a ribbon, what is their incentive to pay more attention to the challenge? Instead of not voting on a DNMC image, or wimping out and giving it a 4, try giving it a one, and leaving a comment telling them that you love the image, but that it is not even close to meeting the challenge. Then perhaps they will not get ribbons, and at the same time will know why.

Until you do that, why complain? It is like folks that complain about the gov't but do not vote.

09/20/2007 08:59:35 PM · #67

Originally posted by doctornick:

Wake up horsey, wake up! Poor horsey is tired.

09/20/2007 09:14:44 PM · #68

Fine. I won't go any further. But I stick to my idea pf having people voice concerns to SC on a separate thread.

Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G

09/20/2007 09:16:39 PM · #69

Originally posted by JBHale:

Fine. I won't go any further. But I stick to my idea pf having people voice concerns to SC on a separate thread.

I did not mean to offend you. Just giving you my opinion. I have barked up this tree before myself. Unfortunately too many folks here will just pee on your tree while you are barking on it. :)

bmartuch

Nikon D7200

09/20/2007 09:39:26 PM · #70

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Frankly, I think that's a bit of a copout. Apply that kind of reasoning to assigned tasks in the real world and see how far it gets you.

R.

I guess that I missed your post earlier Robert. You just said exactly how I feel right there. If you did this in the real world you would be out of a job.

Dirt_Diver

Nikon D3s

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

09/20/2007 09:48:49 PM · #71

Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:

I see voters reward DNMCs -- why do we even bother with challenge themes?

Opening was to show something in the ACT of opening. A VERB, not a noun.

Both the second and third place finishes -- and many more -- took the noun route. Or showed something LOOSELY considered "already open" This isn't a shoehorn situation. It's a pretty clear distinction.

The photos are great, but as we see once again, DID NOT MEET CHALLENGE.

Ok, I'm done.

I think that maybe you should just stop voting on images then. :)

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

09/20/2007 09:56:20 PM · #72

it bothers me that so many people have come out with the 'dead horse' illustration.

To say that this is a dead horse would indicate that the horse had been killed.

In this case, that indicates that a solution had been put in place.

Earlier, someone mentioned that there are a trazillion threads about this already in place. Of course this is not true because this thread is about images in a recent challenge, but it is true that the DNMC issue HAS been discussed at great length. It is also true that it continues to be discussed on a regular basis. And it is further true that images that are viewed by MANY as DNMC continue to place high.

And yet people bring out the 'dead horse' illustration to indicate that they feel the subject has been discussed enough to come up with a reasonable solution or a reasonable answer if action is not required.

Wouldn't it be nice if instead of people creating pages and pages of threads about DNMC, they were allowed a voice on the photograph itself, which could give them the freedom to conscientiously vote as they felt appropriate with the numeric score, but still be able to express that they feel that the image does not meet the specific challenge in which it was entered.

it sure would cut down on the number of threads about dnmc wouldn't it.

I dare say that it would be a much more productive move than merely posting 'dead horse' paraphernalia in every new thread that came along.

Originally posted by GrandWazoo:

indeed, are not all of these legitimate 'problems'?

When I get up and have to decide whether I will eat an egg or oatmeal, this is a problem, but just because the problem comes up regularly, does not mean that I don't need to find a solution or that the solution that worked yesterday for me is the same as the solution that works today for someone else.

Message edited by author 2007-09-20 22:01:13.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

09/20/2007 09:59:26 PM · #73

Originally posted by eschelar:

Wouldn't it be nice if instead of people creating pages and pages of threads about DNMC, they were allowed a voice on the photograph itself ...

It's called a "comment."