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09/22/2007 11:31:38 AM · #151 |
Originally posted by JBHale:
Well, there's always back to my original idea of having a checkbox, but if say 75% of voters say the image is DNMC, it's disqualified. I feel that's fair. |
Even if those voters are checking the box out of their own ignorance regarding the relationship of the photo to the topic? |
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09/22/2007 11:32:40 AM · #152 |
Originally posted by raish:
I think someone should just instigate an INNIE prize - like the opposite of an oobie - for whatever shot may be judged to have fulfilled the challenge best. |
I think that would indicated who met the challenge in the "most obvious" fashion, not necessarily the "best." |
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09/22/2007 11:45:34 AM · #153 |
| I think every single photo in the opening challenge was DNMC. I was looking for a venus fly trap opening with a wasp inside of it and a slight motion blur to prove the movement. Not a single person achieved this. |
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09/22/2007 12:16:53 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
I think you may have misread me Bass. I was responding primarily to GeneralE who is a member of the SC. Additionally, it was referencing content in the 'solution' idea that I presented and linked to earlier in this thread. You may understand what I meant better if you have a read there.
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Ok. :) |
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09/22/2007 12:21:03 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by JBHale:
Well, there's always back to my original idea of having a checkbox, but if say 75% of voters say the image is DNMC, it's disqualified. I feel that's fair. |
Even if those voters are checking the box out of their own ignorance regarding the relationship of the photo to the topic? |
The DQ idea is a stupid one and just provides opportunity for meaningless argument which distracts from the merits of an otherwise very fine idea.
Put the checkbox there. Give the voters a voice about the relevance of the shots to the challenge. Make the final tally of checkboxes public, and let the photog deal with it.
And yes, even those narrow-minded little fools with no creativity, imagination or artistic taste get to check the box too. Just like the same people get to submit their images, every single challenge. |
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09/22/2007 12:28:58 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I also think that concerns about DNMC are overinflated and repeatedly brought up by a very small percentage of the DPC community.
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Not really accurate. If you get right down to it, it is only a small percentage of the dpc community that even participates in challenges. It is even a smaller percent that comment on these forums. You really don't know how the masses feel because most of them are too polite to complain. Only us extroverts are willing to take that step. I am pretty sure that since there are a lot of extroverts that have concerns about this... that there are an awful lot more introverts that are silent that are as well.
**for those of you keeping score...I am very concerned about the dnmc problem (see previous threads where I got bonked for my opinions), however I think folks should do the talking with their votes and a comment other than just dnmc for right now. Until a better solution is put in place, and it does not appear that it will be, God knows this has been debated forever, I encourage everyone to use the tools we have now. Vote a 1 and leave a complete comment, on the picture and then saying dnmc and why it is dnmc. |
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09/22/2007 12:37:51 PM · #157 |
| The "Silent Majority" argument -- great ... |
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09/22/2007 12:39:08 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by JBHale:
I can certainly appreciate that! However, I can also appreciate those that put hard work into the challenges. If only there can be a middle ground where people can exercise creativity and others can fit the challenge. Like maybe vaguer challenge descriptions... |
that would make things worse, not better. First of all that is why there are free studies, as others have already said. Second of all, it is supposed to be a CHALLENGE! That is the name of the site and the whole reason why we are here. So by it's very nature, a challenge needs clearly defined paramaters so that one can try and meet the challenge. then it is only logical for folks to get upset if they went out of their way to meet the challenge, only to lose to an image which admitedly was "shoehorned" into the challenge. (with all do respect to BryanBrazil who had a great image for 3rd place..but admits that he shoehorned it into the challenge as an afterthought) |
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09/22/2007 12:41:19 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
The "Silent Majority" argument -- great ... |
Do you ever post anything constructive? Or do you always spend all your time being overly sarcastic and borderline ignorant? You are always welcome to disagree with me (and usually do..lol) but at least I try and make a point in my posts.
Message edited by author 2007-09-22 12:42:35. |
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09/22/2007 12:44:34 PM · #160 |
Originally posted by basssman7:
it is supposed to be a CHALLENGE! That is the name of the site and the whole reason why we are here. So by it's very nature, a challenge needs clearly defined paramaters so that one can try and meet the challenge. |
This can't be said often enough!
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09/22/2007 12:59:52 PM · #161 |
where can i sign up to be a DNMC supporter,is there a group? i want a badge and pin and a hat...lol
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09/22/2007 01:15:48 PM · #162 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by JBHale:
Well, there's always back to my original idea of having a checkbox, but if say 75% of voters say the image is DNMC, it's disqualified. I feel that's fair. |
Even if those voters are checking the box out of their own ignorance regarding the relationship of the photo to the topic? |
Well I think if the vast majority of voters don't think the image belongs in the challenge, it's a fair DQ. |
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09/22/2007 01:16:59 PM · #163 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Put the checkbox there. Give the voters a voice about the relevance of the shots to the challenge. Make the final tally of checkboxes public, and let the photog deal with it. |
I'm missing how the checkbox solves anything. The way voters are using their current voices (voting and comments) is apparently not acceptable, what is a checkbox going to change exactly?
This whole thread is quite bizarre. |
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09/22/2007 01:26:32 PM · #164 |
I'll echo mk -- this thread is bizarre.
As long as I have a voice to vote, I will always vote not to dq dnmc. I would like to think that in some way we encourage creative thinking. IMO, nothing would squash that faster than to dq shots that people *think* don't meet the challenge.
FWIW, (and again, IMO), the winners do meet the challenge. It is not in your face obvious, but it works for me. When I actually get to vote, I do so with the assumption that every picture I encounter is going to meet the challenge. There have been a few that left me scratching my head in total bewilderment, and I have often left a comment (and vote) stating as such. What I find more often than not, though, is that someone out there had an idea that I would have never thought of. Just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean that it is dnmc (in most cases.)
Message edited by author 2007-09-22 13:27:04. |
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09/22/2007 01:43:19 PM · #165 |
| I honestly don't think it's that big of a problem. But as long as people are upset about it, I'll try to help... |
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09/22/2007 02:07:48 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by raish:
I think someone should just instigate an INNIE prize - like the opposite of an oobie - for whatever shot may be judged to have fulfilled the challenge best. |
I think that would indicated who met the challenge in the "most obvious" fashion, not necessarily the "best." |
Right. Cos the best ones get ribbons, yes? |
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09/22/2007 02:14:14 PM · #167 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Put the checkbox there. Give the voters a voice about the relevance of the shots to the challenge. Make the final tally of checkboxes public, and let the photog deal with it. |
I'm missing how the checkbox solves anything. The way voters are using their current voices (voting and comments) is apparently not acceptable, what is a checkbox going to change exactly?
This whole thread is quite bizarre. |
If voting a shot down because you interpret is as dnmc is not acceptable, then the checkbox presents an avenue for expressing displeaure with a shot that was entered with an apparent dismissal of the 'challenge' concept - an avenue which does not result in a down voting of the shot.
I don't find the thread to be bizarre. People who care about it are just asking for a mechanism to indicate what they think about shot relevance without having to use scores to do so.
I'm happy to just drop 1's and 2's on what I consider to be dnmc entries. Doesn't bother me. However it does bother some people as much as seeing supposedly dnmc entries bothers others, and both sides can be equally nasty in voicing their opinion about things in the forum.
Again, seems an easy enough thing to implement which would make some folks happy. It would also be an indication that the powers-that-be don't think every challenge should be a free study, and that meeting the challenge should be given as much thought as the technicals of the shot. All done without jacking anyone's scores, dq'ing anyone, etc, etc.
And also, it is readily apparent that this is not the concern of a few people. It seems to be a matter of who makes the request. Someone recently asked that special rules be added to the Deja Vu challenge, outlining parameters for a DQ'able entry to keep people from gaming the system.
That request was taken and implemented very quickly. This is the same sort of request, which does not result in any DQ's, which just wants to keep people from ignoring the bounds of a challenge because they know some well worn piece of eye candy will score well. While they can continue to submit such shots, at least there will be a public indicator of how the shots were perceived in this regard.
Example: Here's your ribbon winning Lighting Bolt shot in the "Bright Lighting" challenge. Grats on your ribbon and the 70 dnmc check's that came along with it due to your stunning lack of creativity.
Message edited by author 2007-09-22 14:23:10. |
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09/22/2007 02:22:37 PM · #168 |
The numbers on the two images that a some think DNMC just don't seem to justify all the fuss.
Both the images in question were imaginative and original. They might even be called unusual. I'm not sure that's a "bad thing" in photography.
The 2nd place image received 205 votes, 43 comments and 13 favorites. ALL of the comments praised the entry. That's a pretty good endorsement; the majority said it did meet the Challenge and that's that.
The 3rd place image received 199 votes, 34 comments and 4 favorites. Just three of the comments questioned whether it met the Challenge. Again, it seems to me the majority said it did meet the Challenge. Period.
As far as the discussion on DQs in general go, the great majority of our entrants, I think, do try to meet the challenge within the best of their ability and resources. And that's my 2¢ this time around...
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09/22/2007 02:23:21 PM · #169 |
The way I see it, you can comment to indicate a DNMC. Why add another tick box. Then you can still vote only the quality if you wish. However, voting only the quality puts the dismissal of the topic in the hands of the voter and actually indicates that topic dismissal is ok.
It is only a suggestion, right? ;oP |
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09/22/2007 02:55:01 PM · #170 |
| Perhaps we can implement some sort of all encompassing system to account for everything from dnmc, to quality, technicals and even personal taste. Something like a 1-10 system... |
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09/22/2007 03:07:04 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
The numbers on the two images that a some think DNMC just don't seem to justify all the fuss.
Both the images in question were imaginative and original. They might even be called unusual. I'm not sure that's a "bad thing" in photography.
The 2nd place image received 205 votes, 43 comments and 13 favorites. ALL of the comments praised the entry. That's a pretty good endorsement; the majority said it did meet the Challenge and that's that.
The 3rd place image received 199 votes, 34 comments and 4 favorites. Just three of the comments questioned whether it met the Challenge. Again, it seems to me the majority said it did meet the Challenge. Period.
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The best survey is the voters and commenters. Sfalice hits the nail on the head. These photographers didn't ask to win.... The voters chose them. When all is said... We either have to nod in approval, shake our heads in disagreement but then move along to prepare for the next theme.
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09/22/2007 03:34:13 PM · #172 |
YOU the voter have the power...
The voters have spoken...now move on. |
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09/22/2007 03:50:58 PM · #173 |
Originally posted by doctornick:
YOU the voter have the power...
The voters have spoken...now move on. |
I HAVE the power! |
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09/22/2007 04:37:38 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by routerguy666:
Put the checkbox there. Give the voters a voice about the relevance of the shots to the challenge. Make the final tally of checkboxes public, and let the photog deal with it. |
I'm missing how the checkbox solves anything. The way voters are using their current voices (voting and comments) is apparently not acceptable, what is a checkbox going to change exactly?
This whole thread is quite bizarre. |
If voting a shot down because you interpret is as dnmc is not acceptable, then the checkbox presents an avenue for expressing displeaure with a shot that was entered with an apparent dismissal of the 'challenge' concept - an avenue which does not result in a down voting of the shot.
I don't find the thread to be bizarre. People who care about it are just asking for a mechanism to indicate what they think about shot relevance without having to use scores to do so.
I'm happy to just drop 1's and 2's on what I consider to be dnmc entries. Doesn't bother me. However it does bother some people as much as seeing supposedly dnmc entries bothers others, and both sides can be equally nasty in voicing their opinion about things in the forum.
Again, seems an easy enough thing to implement which would make some folks happy. It would also be an indication that the powers-that-be don't think every challenge should be a free study, and that meeting the challenge should be given as much thought as the technicals of the shot. All done without jacking anyone's scores, dq'ing anyone, etc, etc.
And also, it is readily apparent that this is not the concern of a few people. It seems to be a matter of who makes the request. Someone recently asked that special rules be added to the Deja Vu challenge, outlining parameters for a DQ'able entry to keep people from gaming the system.
That request was taken and implemented very quickly. This is the same sort of request, which does not result in any DQ's, which just wants to keep people from ignoring the bounds of a challenge because they know some well worn piece of eye candy will score well. While they can continue to submit such shots, at least there will be a public indicator of how the shots were perceived in this regard.
Example: Here's your ribbon winning Lighting Bolt shot in the "Bright Lighting" challenge. Grats on your ribbon and the 70 dnmc check's that came along with it due to your stunning lack of creativity. |
The problem is that no one has a problem with the way they vote and comment...the problem is the way everyone else does it. So we add a DNMC checkbox...then the same group can keep complaining about the narrowminded twits who are so ignorant and the other group can keep complaining about how the pansies refuse to vote DNMC on shots that DNMC. And there we are right where we started.
If you don't think a shot meets the challenge, the use your votes and comments (although something more than an acronym would be nice). If you don't want to vote on challenge relevance, then don't, but don't complain about the results, either. General attitude adjustments would likely be much more beneficial to the whole situation more than any sort of features the site could implement.
Message edited by author 2007-09-22 17:13:32. |
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09/22/2007 05:09:41 PM · #175 |
if all the challenges were like the 'rubber ducky' challenge things would be a lot easier around here... ;}
an open mind is a powerful tool
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