| Author | Thread |
|
|
11/29/2007 05:04:18 AM · #1 |
Watching the Richard Dawkins lectures on YouTube had me thinking again about Atheism and what a difficult path it is to follow in Christian countries. Here in Ireland, a predominantly Catholic country, religion and society are inextricably intertwined. For example, getting married in a Church is a must-do (the parents, aunts and uncles all love a white wedding). And how on earth can you have a funeral without a priest?
Children are indoctrinated at an early age. Age 7 for Holy Communion, Age 11 or 12 for Confirmation. How anyone is supposed to confirm their lifelong beliefs in a religion at age 12 is beyond me, I didn't even know what the word meant when I was confirmed. But yet again, these are big social events. Dressing the kids up in their finery, having parties in the house, presents and money from friends and family. You'd be viewed as an outcast and a bad parent if you denied your children these things.
I even tried to debate with my wife the pros and cons of getting our 2yo son baptised. However, it just wasn't up for debate. The idea of him not getting baptised was unthinkable. Besides, what would the grandparents think? - They'd be in shock. Incidentally, we haven't even been back to the Church since that day.
Education; Most of the good schools in Ireland are Catholic schools. Therefore you have to be baptised a Catholic to get into them. And they have regular masses, prayers, religious education etc. to further indoctrinate and brainwash the child.
At least we still have Christmas as a non-religious holiday for the kids to enjoy. :)
Is it as bad as this in the US? |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 05:09:11 AM · #2 |
| Meh. Try being a Christian in on the left coast of the US. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 05:15:01 AM · #3 |
Have a look at this gallup pole about the likehood of voting in an atheist president, What would the founding fathers think!
When George Bush Snr was asked: "... [do] you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"
He replied "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Edit: changed 'gallop' to 'gallup' thanks for that creature! LOL
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 08:37:36. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 08:30:42 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by cheekymunky:
Have a look at this gallop pole |
;-) |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 08:34:50 AM · #5 |
| What disappoints me is a lack of respect for other people's beliefs shown both by Christians and Atheists. It amazes me that though I've been fortunate enough to grow up being able to make up my own mind about my convictions, many people in the civilised world have religion forced upon them, sometimes with very bigoted and harmful beliefs. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 08:43:20 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
How anyone is supposed to confirm their lifelong beliefs in a religion at age 12 is beyond me, I didn't even know what the word meant when I was confirmed. |
Simple answer really - its easier to brainwash people when they are still kids, thats why they do it at such a young age.
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 08:43:43. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 08:46:45 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Is it as bad as this in the US? |
Yes... although Ireland has that history of Christians killing other Christians over differences of belief. :-/ |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 08:48:49 AM · #8 |
I saw a bumper sticker somewhere that said somthing like "Dear Children, when you find out the truth about santa claus, remember adults also told you about Jesus".
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 08:58:59 AM · #9 |
"Brainwashing" goes both ways. Parents influence their children, period. I was an athiest for the first 20 years of my life because my step father told me there's no such thing as God.
Teaching your children what you believe to be true is what parents are expected to do. I don't see how you can somehow make that a platform against religion. An athiest will do the same thing ... teach their kids what they believe.
(ps ... i believe confirmation and child baptisms are wrong for the exact reasons you state)
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by jhonan:
How anyone is supposed to confirm their lifelong beliefs in a religion at age 12 is beyond me, I didn't even know what the word meant when I was confirmed. |
Simple answer really - its easier to brainwash people when they are still kids, thats why they do it at such a young age. |
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:08:44 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by hopper:
An athiest will do the same thing ... teach their kids what they believe.
|
Not so, I would class myself Atheist, but when my boy comes home from school and tells me things he learnt, whether it be about God, Mohammed, Thor, Zeus or Scooby Doo I listen to him, ask him questions but ultimately let him decide, the same will go for my daughter as well. I would not mock them if they decided to follow a religion, be it Christianity, Islam or one of the others, but would make my views clear on the matter and where I stand in my beliefs. If I was a Atheist extremist (if such a thing exists??!) I wouldnt celebrate Christmas or Easter, which we do in my household, but then again, as much as these festivals have their origins based in Christianity, these days the religious aspect has, for right or wrong, become extremely diluted, so I dont see myself as hypocritical by celebrating these.
But I do enjoy wathcing the religious arguments on here, when ultimately the argument is over nothing ;) |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:12:30 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by hopper:
An athiest will do the same thing ... teach their kids what they believe. |
Think so? My kids have attended religious education at the local Catholic church for years. You can't make an informed decision unless you're actually informed.
Incidentally, I think it's fascinating to see the conviction of an older kid who still believes in Santa Claus and claims that a Christmas gift really was crafted at the North Pole even when "Made in China" is stamped into it. Belief is a powerful thing. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:12:48 AM · #12 |
Good answer Mark, and I applaud you for that. But the original post was a generalization, and I answered as such. Surely there are religious parents who don't "brainwash" their children any more than you do yours.
Generalizing is what offends people .. and it happens here at dpc a lot.
that's life, i guess
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by hopper:
An athiest will do the same thing ... teach their kids what they believe.
|
Not so, I would class myself Atheist, but when my boy comes home from school and tells me things he learnt, whether it be about God, Mohammed, Thor, Zeus or Scooby Doo I listen to him, ask him questions but ultimately let him decide, the same will go for my daughter as well. I would not mock them if they decided to follow a religion, be it Christianity, Islam or one of the others, but would make my views clear on the matter and where I stand in my beliefs. If I was a Atheist extremist (if such a thing exists??!) I wouldnt celebrate Christmas or Easter, which we do in my household, but then again, as much as these festivals have their origins based in Christianity, these days the religious aspect has, for right or wrong, become extremely diluted, so I dont see myself as hypocritical by celebrating these.
But I do enjoy wathcing the religious arguments on here, when ultimately the argument is over nothing ;) |
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:17:27 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Children are indoctrinated at an early age. Age 7 for Holy Communion, Age 11 or 12 for Confirmation. How anyone is supposed to confirm their lifelong beliefs in a religion at age 12 is beyond me, I didn't even know what the word meant when I was confirmed. But yet again, these are big social events. Dressing the kids up in their finery, having parties in the house, presents and money from friends and family. You'd be viewed as an outcast and a bad parent if you denied your children these things.
I even tried to debate with my wife the pros and cons of getting our 2yo son baptised. However, it just wasn't up for debate. The idea of him not getting baptised was unthinkable. Besides, what would the grandparents think? - They'd be in shock. Incidentally, we haven't even been back to the Church since that day.
|
Confirmation is a Catholic tradition -- confirming the infant baptism -- not a Christian one, though a couple of offshoot denominations have adopted it as well. There really is no need or reason to baptise your 2-year old as he/she is not making the decision to do so. You're essentially baptising the child every time you wash their hair based on that.
Christian teaching is that a person makes their own decision of faith at whatever age they are old enough to truly understand it. Their parents cannot make it for them. Then baptism follows, not for salvation, but as an act of obedience -- professing that said faith in an action before others.
As for people respecting each others beliefs, that is silly. I do respect another person's right to believe whatever they want -- and Dawkins is pretty far out there. However, no one should be expected in proper society to actually respect the belief of that person. It's a fine line, but an important one.
For instance, I have co-workers who are Hindu. They talk about Shiva and the stapler-god and the toast-god, etc. I still like them and work with them and respect their right to their own faith. But I do not repsect Hinduism itself because to the Christian, it's a false religion.
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:26:32 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
But I do not repsect Hinduism itself because to the Christian, it's a false religion. |
And its attitudes like that across the world that cause wars, conflicts and the deaths of innocents. (thats not a knock at you Hawkeye, just my opinion of why religion is BAD)
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 09:27:06. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:28:25 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
But I do not repsect Hinduism itself because to the Christian, it's a false religion. |
And its attitudes like that across the world that cause wars, conflicts and the deaths of innocents. (thats not a knock at you Hawkeye, just my opinion of why religion is BAD) |
But you trimmed out the main point which contradicts what you just said. I stated that I respect the people and their right to make the choice (no war), just not the choice itself.
I respect people who eat fried okra too -- but I don't respect their food choice (BLECH). :)
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:35:06 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Originally posted by Simms:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
But I do not repsect Hinduism itself because to the Christian, it's a false religion. |
And its attitudes like that across the world that cause wars, conflicts and the deaths of innocents. (thats not a knock at you Hawkeye, just my opinion of why religion is BAD) |
But you trimmed out the main point which contradicts what you just said. I stated that I respect the people and their right to make the choice (no war), just not the choice itself.
I respect people who eat fried okra too -- but I don't respect their food choice (BLECH). :) |
OK, I contradicted myself, bad `quoting`..
This is exactly why I am backing out now whilst I am only slightly behind :-) Back to lurking on the religious themed threads... |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 09:41:01 AM · #17 |
I do think religions get more respect that they deserve, especially the way some followers act. Wasn't there a case in the US in 2006 about Christian unions in universities SUING the university for their RELIGIOUS right to abuse and harass homosexuals?
I like the way H. L. Mencken put it:
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart"
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 11:02:25 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by cheekymunky:
I do think religions get more respect that they deserve, especially the way some followers act. Wasn't there a case in the US in 2006 about Christian unions in universities SUING the university for their RELIGIOUS right to abuse and harass homosexuals?
I like the way H. L. Mencken put it:
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart" |
I have a feeling "abuse" and "harass" are spin by either the poster or the liberal "news" agency that reported it.
We Christians have no right to abuse or harass anyone.
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 11:21:36 AM · #19 |
Well if I used the word "protest", is it any less deplorable?
ETA: Here is another case, very similar. I won't repeat it here, as I truly think it is terrible. Interestingly the parents of the child (an indoctrinated child?) appealed to the constitution right to freedom of religion. They actually won. Their case was funded by the 'Alliance Defense Fund of Arizona', whose business is to "press the legal battle for religious freedom".
Message edited by author 2007-11-29 11:38:23. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 11:28:08 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by cheekymunky:
Well if I used the "protest", is it any less deplorable? |
I don't know any Christians who protest homosexuals (we hear about exceptions of ALL groups on the news)... protesing homosexuality is a different matter entirely.
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 11:28:24 AM · #21 |
The Dawkins lectures the OP refer to are:
Richard Dawkins discusses "The God Delusion" at Randolph-Macon Woman's College in Lynchburg, Virginia, Part I
Richard Dawkins discusses "The God Delusion" at Randolph-Macon Woman's College in Lynchburg, Virginia, Part II
jhonan, I think your point is well made, and echoes Dawkins when he suggests that atheists are afraid of being disenfranchised if they are honest about their views. I don't know the actual figures, but he also said that as a group, atheists an agnostics outnumber Jews in the United States, who have a powerful pro-Israel lobby in that country, and if only the former would organize and come together as well, the political landscape might shift dramatically.
He also suggests that getting atheists to organize themselves is like herding cats: such an intelligent and willful animal is prone to doing its own thing. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 11:36:36 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
We Christians have no right to abuse or harass anyone. |
Riiiiiight. Witch hunts, Inquisitions, Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, sectarian violence, sanctioned slavery, gay rights protests, sexual abuse by priests, mandatory school prayer, right down to more "benign" matters such as disapproval of an offspring's choice of spouse on the basis of religious belief alone... this is spin?
"No orthodox church ever had power that it did not endeavor to make people think its way by force and flame. And yet every church that ever was established commenced in the minority, and while it was in the minority advocated free speech -- every one. John Calvin, the founder of the Presbyterian Church, while he lived in France, wrote a book on religious toleration in order to show that all men had an equal right to think; and yet that man afterward, clothed in a little authority, forgot all his sentiments about religious liberty, and had poor Serviettes burned at the stake, for differing with him on a question that neither of them knew anything about. In the minority, Calvin advocated toleration -- in the majority, he practiced murder." ΓΆ€” Robert Green Ingersoll
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 11:48:30 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Simple answer really - its easier to brainwash people when they are still kids, thats why they do it at such a young age. |
Then it's a no-win situation. If you tell them there is a God, you're brainwashing them with your Theistic beliefs, if you tell them that God doesn't exist then you're encouraging them towards Atheism. Either way, when my son comes to tell me what he learned in Religion, I'm more tempted just to go along with it, mainly to make life easier for him.
Originally posted by scalvert:
Yes... although Ireland has that history of Christians killing other Christians over differences of belief. :-/ |
Not really. Religion was just a convenient way for people to take sides in Northern Ireland. They certainly weren't fighting over the differences between their religious beliefs. It was about patriotism/nationalism, politics, and civil rights.
Originally posted by hopper:
Teaching your children what you believe to be true is what parents are expected to do. I don't see how you can somehow make that a platform against religion. An athiest will do the same thing ... teach their kids what they believe. |
See my reply to Simms above. I really don't think it would be fair on my son to confuse him with my beliefs. Especially when he's going to a Catholic school. The teachers are telling him one thing, and his dad is telling him another!
Originally posted by hopper:
Good answer Mark, and I applaud you for that. But the original post was a generalization, and I answered as such. |
I was speaking from my personal experience and from what I've observed in Irish society.
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
There really is no need or reason to baptise your 2-year old as he/she is not making the decision to do so. You're essentially baptising the child every time you wash their hair based on that. |
The first religious ritual my child will have any real say in will be his marriage, and even that is debatable depending on the type of woman he marries... :)
With baptism, communion, and confirmation the child is too young to make an informed decision. I didn't start thinking in a philosophical way about Theism until I was well into my 20s. To be honest, I think the Catholic church is terrified that the take-up rates will drop if the children even understand that they've got a say! Basically, they take a classful of children and send them off to their First Holy Communion or their Confirmation. Decision-making doesn't come into it.
|
|
|
|
11/29/2007 11:58:49 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by Louis:
jhonan, I think your point is well made, and echoes Dawkins when he suggests that atheists are afraid of being disenfranchised if they are honest about their views. |
Yes, it was watching these Dawkins lectures last night that got me thinking about the issue. And I concluded that if I was honest about my beliefs, or if I even hinted at raising my son outside the 'faith' then I'd be disowned. By my family and society. I'm afraid It just doesn't work that way in Catholic Ireland. |
|
|
|
11/29/2007 12:03:22 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
We Christians have no right to abuse or harass anyone. |
Riiiiiight. Witch hunts, Inquisitions, Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, sectarian violence, sanctioned slavery, gay rights protests, sexual abuse by priests, mandatory school prayer, right down to more "benign" matters such as disapproval of an offspring's choice of spouse on the basis of religious belief alone... this is spin?
|
I stand behind what I said... we have no RIGHT to abuse or harass anyone. Your comment includes some items where people misappropriated the name of Christ -- and were not within their rights to do so.
If I claimed to be a Buddhist, then acted in a manner contrary to those teachings -- which is wrong? All Buddhists or my claim to actually be one? Pretty clear.
In turn you said:
Witch hunts, - Ignorance and nothing Christian about it. The people were acting out of fear (based on the lies of children) and not rational thought. Mob mentality is dangerous. God made us to think.
Inquisitions, This was Catholic, not Christian.
Crusades, Again, Catholic, not Christian.
abortion clinic bombings, Denounced by Christians. See the example above -- just because a person claims to be doing something in the name of Christ, a quick check of Christian teachings clearly shows he is acting on his own authority and not the Word of God.
sectarian violence, Haven't seen too many Baptists and Methodists firebombing one another, so not sure what you mean here. Again, 200 years ago or more there may have been examples of people acting on their own and claiming to be Christian (much like TBN televangelists today)
sanctioned slavery, The Bible does not condone slavery... Again, a lot of this was based on ignorance because most couldn't read back then... so a few bad apples were able to do the mob mentality thing.
gay rights protests, Here's one that does not belong in your list. Homosexuality is wrong, both naturally and from a Christian perspective. Protesting giving to those who choose this lifestyle special rights is simply political discourse. Sex and age and race are not chosen... so they don't equate.
sexual abuse by priests, Catholic, not Christian. But there have been cases where Christian pastors, etc. have abused their position as well -- no denying that. But... they are all, just like you and me, sinful creatures. Their sin is more heinous because of the abuse of trust (and kids as victims), but it's still a sin and still wrong and denounced by Christians. Christians don't stop sinning. But we try to. We're aware of it. We try not to be willful and deliberately do things we shouldn't. Some do and I personally question whether they ever loved Christ at all.
mandatory school prayer, When we had it, there was nothing wrong with it. Separation of church and state was only to keep the state out of the church, not the other way around. There is nothing in the Constitution preventing schools from observing religion. However, that said, I don't want the schools teaching my kids religion. They cannot even teaching reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic correctly anymore.
right down to more "benign" matters such as disapproval of an offspring's choice of spouse on the basis of religious belief alone Another one that is silly on this list. We are encouraged not to be unequally yoked (as Christians). So yes, a Christian parent would properly disapprove of their dear child marrying someone outside their faith. That's just common sense. But it probably goes back to them not raising their child right in the first place if their child didn't hold their faith important enough to consider who they marry. Just like if a child married someone with an STD -- yes, you can work around it, but it will make life tougher. A Christian child properly nurtured would want their children to be Christian as well. Marrying someone who is of another faith is certainly going to put that at risk.
|
|
