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12/18/2007 11:53:58 AM · #1 |
So, I haven't been on this site long, but I do enjoy. As a freelance photographer, it's fun to stop thinking about work for a second and do something fun. However, one thing that really bothers me is the basic editing rules. What exactly do these accomplish?
I mean, I get it, it's intended to show who is the best at doing things in-camera. However, that notion is ridiculous! Throughout the history of photography, "photo-manipulation" is prevalent. Every great photographer EVER manipulates their photos (dodge,burn,even clone)
As a long time student of photography, most of what you learn is how to "finish" a photograph. Things such as layer masks and dodging and burning are essential to make an effective photo.
Has anyone ever seen an Ansel Adams print that wasn't manipulated in the darkroom? I have and it's BORING! There is a distinct lack of tone and drama. If he wasn't allowed to use the plethora of chemicals and editing tricks in his arsenal, then nobody would know who he is!
anyway, I'm ranting. I propose we make the "basic" ruleset more like the "advanced" .. then make the "advanced" more like "expert".
You all can try to convince me otherwise, but I imagine most of you agree with me, whether or not youre willing to admit it.
Remember,just as I teach my students, taking the picture is only half of photography. You have to FINISH your photographs for them to be successful! |
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12/18/2007 11:57:23 AM · #2 |
I disagree 100% with this statement:
Things such as layer masks and dodging and burning are essential to make an effective photo.
Are you telling me you've never seen an effective photo that was not dodged, burned or had layer masks? If not, you need to go look at some photos.
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12/18/2007 12:04:52 PM · #3 |
Just about every photographer throughout history, when making their finished presentation, performs some kind of manipulation to make their photos perfect and EXACTLY what they want. However small the manipulations are, they are there.
You can make an effective photograph with basic editing, however there will be many more imperfections that could easily be fixed.
Why don't you want your work to be as good as it can be? |
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12/18/2007 12:10:22 PM · #4 |
Wow. This one's been discussed to death, of course. All your points have been raised, and argued, ad nauseum. But you're new here, you don't know that :-)
To answer a couple of them:
Has anyone ever seen an Ansel Adams print that wasn't manipulated in the darkroom?
Yup, I have. I lived cross-canyon from him for 4 years and did some work with him, including printing from his negatives. You are correct, he was a master "manipulator". Arguably the most stunning example would be "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico", which you wouldn't look twice at if it was a straight print.
Remember,just as I teach my students, taking the picture is only half of photography. You have to FINISH your photographs for them to be successful!
Absolutely. But at the same time, you DO have to teach the fundamentals, and straight-from-camera is valid for doing that. Color slides, for example, were/are good straight-from-camera teaching opportunities. I taught photography at the University of California, many years ago and long before digital, and we spent a lot of time on straight-from-camera fundamentals. DPC's "basic" ruleset is actually fairly liberal in that context; take a look at the (seldom used) "minimal editing" ruleset to see something truly restrictive.
I propose we make the "basic" ruleset more like the "advanced" .. then make the "advanced" more like "expert".
I tend to agree with you on that, actually. To my way of thinking the "basic" rules are a hodgepodge and very inconsistent. Meanwhile the 'advanced" rules, with their proscription on compositing multiple images, have thrown the baby out with the bathwater; one of the most purely "photographic" tools we have in our arsenal is true HDR imaging, using multiple exposures of the same scene, and that is currently allowed only in "expert" challenges, where the images have to compete with pure "digital art" composited up of multiple, unrelated images.
Meanwhile, the "basic" rules encourage the development of an inferior workflow (particularly in the prohibition of layer modes in specific and pixel-containing layers in general) which strikes me as intensely counter-productive.
So yeah, I'd like to see the "new basic" be more like advanced, and the "new advanced" be more like expert, except that it would prohibit multi-image composites using more than one scene or setup. The current "minimal" rules would work well for bare-bones "teaching" challenges.
So that's my take on it :-)
R.
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12/18/2007 12:11:03 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by dstrohl:
Why don't you want your work to be as good as it can be? |
Because at DPC, folks want to see good photography, not good software editing skills. Many people are much better at Photoshop (et al) than others, giving them an advantage. This site (IMHO) wants to level the playing field, giving everyone a chance to shine.
If you want elaborate editing of photos, you can still enter the other types of challenges here at DPC that do allow more editing than under the Basic ruleset.
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12/18/2007 12:13:22 PM · #6 |
Part of the site to provide challenges and obstacles for the photographer to overcome. The multiple rules sets for the challenges are some of those obstacles. By making the photographer work hard to perfect the image prior to pressing the shutter, it helps the photog improve their photographic skills. Being able to 'photoshop' everything post exposure takes some of the interest away from the site, IMHO
I think it's time that we remind SC to run a minimal rules challenge for  dstrohl...You will LOVE IT! ;-) |
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12/18/2007 12:15:44 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by AperturePriority:
... at DPC, folks want to see good photography, not good software editing skills. Many people are much better at Photoshop (et al) than others, giving them an advantage. This site (IMHO) wants to level the playing field, giving everyone a chance to shine. |
The problem with this, IMO, is that it doesn't hold water. IMO, an expert photoshopper has a much greater advantage in basic editing than s/he does in advanced editing, because s/he can figure out "legal" workarounds to attain the desired image. Much of what's prohibited in basic editing is really just shortcuts, photoshop automations of what used to be labor-intensive workflows. Those of us who've used PS for a long time have a real advantage there.
R.
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12/18/2007 12:18:00 PM · #8 |
Taking the picture is more than "half" of photography to me.
Originally posted by dstrohl:
...
Why don't you want your work to be as good as it can be? |
Sure we do, but some of us want to rely on the photo taking skills first and post processing skills 2nd. They both go hand in hand. But I like the challenge of getting what I want and how I want it perfected in cam. That's why I like Basic, it pushes me to take better shots first. Then I advanced to Advanced editing with the basic mindset. Basic is also more classic photography than Expert, which is more digital art which is based around photography. That's my thoughts on it, but respect your thoughts.
I'd give a guess the majority of the site want Basic as it already stands. Sure I'd love to selectivly sharpen, but that's it. I'm really glad they gave us the chance to clone out sensor dust! thank you! |
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12/18/2007 12:18:48 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
To my way of thinking the "basic" rules are a hodgepodge and very inconsistent. Meanwhile the 'advanced" rules, with their proscription on compositing multiple images, have thrown the baby out with the bathwater; one of the most purely "photographic" tools we have in our arsenal is true HDR imaging, using multiple exposures of the same scene, and that is currently allowed only in "expert" challenges, where the images have to compete with pure "digital art" composited up of multiple, unrelated images.
Meanwhile, the "basic" rules encourage the development of an inferior workflow (particularly in the prohibition of layer modes in specific and pixel-containing layers in general) which strikes me as intensely counter-productive. |
Good points Robert. I still get confused about what is allowed and not from one challenge to the next...a re-write of the editing rules would really be great to allow all (including new to the site members) to have the same level of understanding of the rules |
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12/18/2007 12:19:20 PM · #10 |
Why do you want to rely on post-processing crutches when you can get it right in-camera? Where's the challenge in that? You know, that word that comprises the majority of the site's name? This is a teaching site, at least historically. Stripping the editing rules has the effect of teaching entrants to be resourceful to get the effect they want in the original capture. Dealing with harsh shadows? Good lighting beats the pants off Shadow/Highlight any day. Want a vignette in Minimal Editing? Make a construction paper cone or figure something else out. Post-processing is not always the best way to achieve an effect, and I think learning how to do that is the point moreso than presenting the world's most perfect photo every time thanks to cloning, healing brushes, vignettes, masking, dodge/burn, etc. etc. etc.
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12/18/2007 12:32:56 PM · #11 |
| I believe Basic Editing as a rule set is at least partially a marketing tool. It's all those poor non-members have available to them (at least most of the time). |
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12/18/2007 01:04:07 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by AperturePriority:
... at DPC, folks want to see good photography, not good software editing skills. Many people are much better at Photoshop (et al) than others, giving them an advantage. This site (IMHO) wants to level the playing field, giving everyone a chance to shine. |
The problem with this, IMO, is that it doesn't hold water. IMO, an expert photoshopper has a much greater advantage in basic editing than s/he does in advanced editing, because s/he can figure out "legal" workarounds to attain the desired image. Much of what's prohibited in basic editing is really just shortcuts, photoshop automations of what used to be labor-intensive workflows. Those of us who've used PS for a long time have a real advantage there. |
Yes, a very valid point! Thanks, Robert.
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12/18/2007 01:11:19 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by bassbone:
...a re-write of the editing rules would really be great to allow all (including new to the site members) to have the same level of understanding of the rules |
You want to do that all OVER again?! Rules were just rewritten with much bantering, refining, etc... Introducing the New Rules
I think the current rulesets are fine as they are. If I had any one thing to address it would be the main item Robert pointed out - multiple images for HDR in advanced. However, I'm not sure how that can be implemented without creating several loopholes for those that always try to push the envelope.
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12/18/2007 01:28:36 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by dstrohl:
anyway, I'm ranting. I propose we make the "basic" ruleset more like the "advanced" .. then make the "advanced" more like "expert".
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That's a good idea. after this is done, we should create another "edit" mode for the non-manipulated pictures , coming straight from the camera. And we could call this set of rules "basic editing", oh, sorry that exist already...
I think the "basic editing" is to force us to develop photo composition, rather than photo editing techniques. For this last aspect, there are the other advanced rules.
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12/18/2007 01:50:24 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
You know, that word that comprises the majority of the site's name? |
digital photography ? Those words ? :) But its the same old discussion. Some people feel that photography ends when the shutter is pressed, others see that as the starting point of photography.
Basic rules throw out half of what photography is, imho. |
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12/18/2007 01:54:10 PM · #16 |
I understand about doing it right in camera. But Photoshop is NOT a crutch, and just as was stated earlier, all the rules are doing is making it harder to do the same things I want to do anyway.
Good photographers are good photographers. "Photoshoppers" still wont win challenges because good photography skills are still very important.
If you cant light, compose, and get a proper exposure, then no amount of photoshop will help your image.
If we're all here to learn and get better, then why are we handicapping ourselves?
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12/18/2007 01:57:00 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by dstrohl:
Good photographers are good photographers. "Photoshoppers" still wont win challenges because good photography skills are still very important.
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I used to believe that totally, and still do to some degree. BUT, having seen some of the originals of the winners has changed my mind. There have been a few, that without editing, and specifically, the selective editing in advanced, would probably not have scored over a mid 5. :/
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12/18/2007 02:17:33 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I used to believe that totally, and still do to some degree. BUT, having seen some of the originals of the winners has changed my mind. There have been a few, that without editing, and specifically, the selective editing in advanced, would probably not have scored over a mid 5. :/ |
In rebuttal to that, let's go back to our reference of Ansel Adams' "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico"
one of the greatest photos of alltime, and without darkroom manipulations, would probably score a mid 5 on this site. and that's just wrong.
I say take the shackles off of us.
If people can make a good thing out of nothing, then good for them. |
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12/18/2007 02:19:41 PM · #19 |
My two cents. This site is to encourage learning about photography. The forums and contests are a great source of information and inspiration. It should be for all levels of skills and allow the person to advance.
Many photo editing software programs- particularly those with features that are allowed in Advanced Editing- have tough learining curves. By having a "basic" editing level, it allows newer, less experienced photographers to have a fairly level playing field for their photos in the contests. This makes it less intimmidating to enter and encourages new people to enter and join. If they were all open to "expert" editing, then you would have a much smaller base of members here and a more limited pool of photogs to get ideas from.
Editing requires learning just like the camera settings do. Basic editing contests encourage learning the camera basics while the editing skills develop.
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12/18/2007 02:23:00 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by JeffryZ:
Editing requires learning just like the camera settings do. Basic editing contests encourage learning the camera basics while the editing skills develop. |
If we discourage post-processing with a limited ruleset, then how is that going to help people to learn how to finish their images? |
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12/18/2007 02:38:18 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by dstrohl:
... I say take the shackles off of us. |
Here you go ==> Worth1000.com
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12/18/2007 02:39:10 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by dstrohl:
Originally posted by JeffryZ:
Editing requires learning just like the camera settings do. Basic editing contests encourage learning the camera basics while the editing skills develop. |
If we discourage post-processing with a limited ruleset, then how is that going to help people to learn how to finish their images? |
because i, for one, would like to learn how to do 'advanced editing'. i am very pleased to be able to enter my photos in the 'basic editing' comps in the meantime. it motivates me. if i didn't have that option, i probably would just go to a photo site and read and learn and not spend my time on this one. this one makes it more fun while i try to learn more about advanced editing techniques. |
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12/18/2007 02:46:32 PM · #23 |
It's a simple difference of opinion about photo processing. Some folks like lots, others like little or none. It's a personal preference and nobody's going to change their minds. There's just no reason to take any ruleset away.
Besides, running most of the open challenges under basic gives non-paying members an incentive to pay to access more types of challenges. |
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12/18/2007 02:52:54 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by smurfguy:
It's a simple difference of opinion about photo processing. Some folks like lots, others like little or none. It's a personal preference and nobody's going to change their minds. There's just no reason to take any ruleset away.
Besides, running most of the open challenges under basic gives non-paying members an incentive to pay to access more types of challenges. |
those are very smurfy points |
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12/18/2007 03:06:32 PM · #25 |
I've been here a long time now, and if weren't for the step approach this site takes to photography, I would have given up years ago. I wouldn't say I'm all that great, or even very good, but I'm a hell of a lot better than when I started.
Some people join DPC after they have already spent many years as a pro or at least as a successful hobbyist. Most of us don't have that advantage. DPC was set up to be a teaching/mentoring site, a place where anyone could show up and learn a thing or two. As you spend more time here, there are ways to improve your photography without having to leave DPC. That's part of why there is Basic Editing and then Advanced and then Expert.
I started with a crappy Kodak point and shoot. Then I moved up to a (then) top of the line Canon point and shoot and Photoshop 7. That's when I paid for my membership and felt I could compete at the Advanced level. Since then, I've graduated to a dSLR. Still using PS7. I still don't know how to use layer masks, but I'll figure it out at some point.
The point is, not everyone is ready to jump right into a $5000 camera with another few thousand dollars' worth of lenses and equipment and software. Not everyone already knows how to even pick up a camera phone and compose a shot. Basic is a starting point. If it's beneath you, then bully for you. Pony up the lousy $25 membership fee and play with the big boys. Nobody's making you enter a kiddie pool challenge. And if Advanced isn't enough for you either, may I suggest working on your Google-fu and find another site more to your liking? |
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