| Author | Thread |
|
|
02/27/2008 12:26:59 PM · #26 |
It depends.
If the site is about competition, then no, you shouldn't show outtakes.
If the site is about learning and improving, then not only should you be able to show outtakes, but you should be able to talk about entries. As the OP said, nobody really talks about entries from the previous challenges.
We vote on the images and talk about the ones that weren't good enough to enter. (the 'outtakes')
Or we don't talk about outtakes or entries at all. (or little enough to be worthwhile educationally)
You get unidirectional proclamations or comments on the image, but no useful discussion/ dialog.
Changes might improve the amount of discussion - but voting to get to those changes seems to be stuck in a 'the status quo is awesome, nothing could ever possibly be better' mindset. Which may or may not be true, but is typical of most poll results.
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 12:31:58 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
What gets/got me annoyed in the first place was when -- during the voting where I have two comments -- someone posts their "second shot" of the challenge in a forum post and gets ten comments on their photo which isn't even an entry. It doesn't seem fair to me that someone should get to garner comments on two photos on the current topic, when others are limited to one. |
This seems like the most salient point I've heard yet. That makes it seem more like someone cutting in line (jumping the que or whatever) to get comments. People may vote in a challenge regardless of outtakes, but comments are a more limited resource worthy of fair consideration. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 12:32:58 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
If the site is about competition, then no, you shouldn't show outtakes. |
Well it is "a digital photography contest" we're all participating in - but it's also a learning experience at the same time. However, learning is often characterised by improvement or changes in scores from voting...or rather it's a quantifiable way to measure progress on this site to these voters. The learning can still continue but it seems that this proposal has come forward because past outtakes aren't discussed enough. Seems that is the problem, but that the proposed solution doesn't provide an adequate solution (i.e. it skews voting by blowing anonymity and it gives the SC an ongoing headache). Surely there has to be another way to get outtakes discussed without knocking the voting integrity any further?
N
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 12:37:27 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
If the site is about learning and improving, then not only should you be able to show outtakes, but you should be able to talk about entries. As the OP said, nobody really talks about entries from the previous challenges.
We vote on the images and talk about the ones that weren't good enough to enter. (the 'outtakes')
Or we don't talk about outtakes or entries at all. (or little enough to be worthwhile educationally) ... |
I think I once suggested the idea of not posting the new challenge immediately when the voting was over, but rather having a day or two to discuss the results of the just-concluded one, before everyone starts planning for the next challenge.
Maybe just shorten the voting period to five days ...
The problem is that as both a learning and competition site, each aspect needs to compromise a bit from the ideal format -- it would be great to discuss entries during the challenge, but that would almost certainly influence voting. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 12:43:39 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
What I need someone to explain to me is why is this so important? Why can't discussion of outtakes just wait until after voting has finished?
What I'm failing to see is the benefit from early or even premature discussion of outtakes when there's obviously such downsides to the proposal...
N |
It really doesn't seem all that important given that the people who want to post during challenges don't seem very passionate about wanting to do so. On the other hand, it's clear that those who want outtakes to wait are very passionate about it and support their arguments with good reasoning.
The one good argument I've heard so far is that interest in a topic dries up soon after a challenge and outtakers would like to get attention concurrent with the challenge.  GeneralE's argument regarding the already limited number of comments for challenge participants blows that argument out of the water IMHO. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 12:46:32 PM · #31 |
For me, the issue is not so much talking about outtakes or results after the fact. It doesn't happen much and isn't all that interesting (to me) when it does.
People learn best when they are at a point of "need to know."
If I'm interested in making a great landscape, for example, I'm at that point when I'm trying to shoot one for a current challenge and when I'm trying to understand what makes me respond more strongly to one in a competition. Also, in this example of landscapes, I have to ask when would we ever be able to discuss that topic? Seems to me there's always a current challenge that would make that discussion a violation of the current site etiquette. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 12:50:47 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
... Surely there has to be another way to get outtakes discussed without knocking the voting integrity any further? |
Outtake threads don't have a long shelf life, at least not in my observations. I've posted to them a few times and the feedback is limited.
Part of the problem with outtake threads is that the interest in that subject has waned. Usually a couple hundred photos of that subject/category have been up for a week for people to vote/comment on. In addition, a new challenge has been posted at rollover. Energy is geared then towards the new challenge subject. People get excited about the challenges...good thing, or DPChallenge wouldn't have stuck around as it has.
IMO, the best way to get "feedback" on an outtake (or any photo for that matter) is to use the Individual Photograph Discussion forum thread area. Whether you want opinions, or just want to display your recent shots, you can get that attention easily (depending on how you ask). There are also other threads of a general sharing/commenting nature doing on all the time here.
One last point I'd like to bring up, is that during the submission period of announced challenges, many times threads are started that discuss the challenge theme and/or techniques. Perfect example right here ==> What does "Processing to Black and White" mean?. This is great as part of the learning environment here at DPChallenge.
All food for thought. Process at your own risk. :-) |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:00:44 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by ZeppKash:
I'm totally with you here on this one. I entered the Color on Color challenge, but took a ton of shots for the B&W in Color Challenge, and as it stands I can't post and discuss them? |
Not until the voting's over -- why should you get to "enter" both challenges? The point of the "Exclusive" challenges is you have to choose one or the other to get feedback about ... |
Feedback? I'll be lucky to get 6 comments on my 'color on color' image, and even luckier if more than two of them are something other than "thats pretty". Challenge entries do far less than thread discussions to give insightful critique to images.
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:02:44 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
What gets/got me annoyed in the first place was when -- during the voting where I have two comments -- someone posts their "second shot" of the challenge in a forum post and gets ten comments on their photo which isn't even an entry. |
And you would be less annoyed if those same 10 comments were on an outtake from the prior week's challenge? What makes you think the people leaving comments on forum images would instead leave them on your entry? They may have already voted and commented on the challenge or have no intention of doing so. Would you not be annoyed if you had the perfect entry, but lost power before you could submit it, and were then prohibited from getting any feedback until the challenge was over and peoples' attention had moved on to a new topic? |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:03:57 PM · #35 |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:06:02 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
[
I think I once suggested the idea of not posting the new challenge immediately when the voting was over, but rather having a day or two to discuss the results of the just-concluded one, before everyone starts planning for the next challenge.
Maybe just shorten the voting period to five days ...
|
Now this is an idea that would contribute greatly to the commenting/teaching/learning aspect of this site. IMO. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:12:39 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
One last point I'd like to bring up, is that during the submission period of announced challenges, many times threads are started that discuss the challenge theme and/or techniques. Perfect example right here ==> What does "Processing to Black and White" mean? |
An interesting example, worthy thread, with two posted photographs - which by strict definition break the rule.
  |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:18:34 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
One last point I'd like to bring up, is that during the submission period of announced challenges, many times threads are started that discuss the challenge theme and/or techniques. Perfect example right here ==> What does "Processing to Black and White" mean? |
An interesting example, worthy thread, with two posted photographs - which by strict definition break the rule.
|
??? One photo is from 2006, the other 2005, and neither one was posted after the challenge went "live" (in voting mode). |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:22:13 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
interesting example, worthy thread, with two posted photographs - which by strict definition break the rule.
|
Both images were from prior challenges, and visible throughout the voting. Are they really outtakes? Do they siphon comments away from the entries? Do the results of Challenge I affect the voting on Challenge II? People will complain immediately if an outtake is posted, but if someone asks where they can find the results of a prior version of that topic, those same people who complain will often be the ones who offer a link... to hundreds of directly related images. Something does not compute here. :-/ |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 01:31:51 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
... Both images were from prior challenges, and visible throughout the voting. Are they really outtakes? ... |
I don't believe these were considered outtakes, nor should they be, as they were part of a "conversation" that took place prior to the challenge going into the voting stage.
Open conversation, examples, learning, etc...during the week leading up to voting, are all great examples of the learning aspect of DPChallenge.
Personally, I think the only time that outtakes are a potential issue is when the challenge is actively being voted on. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 02:04:33 PM · #41 |
If outakes are not allowed because voters will then be able to figure out who took the challenge entry, then all self portraits should not be allowed except in a self portrait challenge. Why do you think some people put their own face in so many challenges.........So they CAN be recognized. They are hoping that voters think "Oh...that's so and so's picture, I'll give them a good score".
Message edited by author 2008-02-27 14:06:25. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 03:57:40 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by bmartuch:
If outakes are not allowed because voters will then be able to figure out who took the challenge entry, then all self portraits should not be allowed except in a self portrait challenge. Why do you think some people put their own face in so many challenges.........So they CAN be recognized. They are hoping that voters think "Oh...that's so and so's picture, I'll give them a good score". |
There might be one or two that do that, but I think most do because they just don't have other models. I know I only have one (also a member here) who is willing to be in my shots on a regular basis. I tend to expect to be voted DOWN because she may be recognised, not the opposite.
eta; I like GeneralE's suggestion of a day or two between voting periods to allow time to look at, and discuss, the previous challenges. They DO tend to get pushed aside as there's new ones to consider.
Message edited by author 2008-02-27 16:00:35. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 07:35:45 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
eta; I like GeneralE's suggestion of a day or two between voting periods to allow time to look at, and discuss, the previous challenges. They DO tend to get pushed aside as there's new ones to consider. |
Isn't it still really 'stale' by that point anyway - you've taken your shot, the next theme will be along in a few moments, any likelihood of learning or perhaps more importantly, putting in to practice and getting feedback on, a shot has gone, mostly.
The time to discuss outtakes and techniques/ approaches and ideas should be before the submission process ends.
If you wanted to learn more.
Treat it like an open book exam, the best photo still should win.
Just a thought. Depends if you think voters are an immature bunch who can't be trusted to vote honestly or not, I suppose.
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 07:46:16 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Depends if you think voters are an immature bunch who can't be trusted to vote honestly or not, I suppose. |
Well, yeah ... |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 07:57:30 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
eta; I like GeneralE's suggestion of a day or two between voting periods to allow time to look at, and discuss, the previous challenges. They DO tend to get pushed aside as there's new ones to consider. |
Isn't it still really 'stale' by that point anyway - you've taken your shot, the next theme will be along in a few moments, any likelihood of learning or perhaps more importantly, putting in to practice and getting feedback on, a shot has gone, mostly.
The time to discuss outtakes and techniques/ approaches and ideas should be before the submission process ends.
If you wanted to learn more.
Treat it like an open book exam, the best photo still should win.
Just a thought. Depends if you think voters are an immature bunch who can't be trusted to vote honestly or not, I suppose. |
There's always discussion before voting starts, and I don't think anyone's suggesting doing away with that. Once it goes into voting you've passed your chance to put into practice for that challenge anyway.
Oh, I see now what you're saying. I have no argument with discussion before submission, but I also see a value in "debriefing" after voting. It might not help you with THAT challenge, but there's still lots to be learned for next time, at least for some of us. |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 07:57:41 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
People will complain immediately if an outtake is posted, but if someone asks where they can find the results of a prior version of that topic, those same people who complain will often be the ones who offer a link... to hundreds of directly related images. Something does not compute here. :-/ |
Shannon, what is so hard to understand here? Past challenges are available and people can look at them before shooting a shot to see what did good last time. They can take that information and decide BEFORE THEY SHOOT what they wanna shoot. Out takes by definition are not out takes until the voting has begun. Once the voting has begun, no one really gives a crap what was in the last challenge. They just wanna know what their score is. They just wanna get comments. Out take discussions will (IMHO) and do (Look at GeneralE's example) take away from the voting/commenting of the current challenge.
Is this a learning site? Yes. I have learned more than any classroom could ever teach me about photography here. However, the learning part is based on a challenge engine. Don't mess with that... |
|
|
|
02/27/2008 11:01:57 PM · #47 |
My apologies if this has already been said...
I think it would be alright to hold off on outtakes until after the challenge voting has ended, but I don't see any problem with people discussing photos of similar subject matter, especially if the photographer didn't enter in the challenge. It seems to me that by definition the only people capable of posting an outtake is a person who has an entry in the challenge. Anything else is just a photo that someone wants discussion on.
I also do not think discussion of related photos takes away from attention of the challenge being voted on any more than the other hundreds of threads posted everyday. And as the policy is in practice now, it's not about whether this sort of discussion takes place, but whether the thread was created after the start of the voting process. So anyone can post photos and discussion here next week, but not in a newly created thread pertaining to tilted photographs.
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 11:12:25 PM · #48 |
i think outtakes should not be posted until after a challenge is over. i thought the entry was supposed to be anonymous to help keep things unbiased, however, i am troubled by some of the comments i see on the entries after the challenge that make it obvious that the commenter knew who took the photo when they voted. outtakes being posted could potentially identify an entry. one of the poll options is to post outtakes different from the entry. inevitably, there would be the SC trying to decide if an outtake was sufficiently different from the entry, etc, etc.... it's opening another can of worms.
now if this discussion was sparked by the thread with people's pets that did NOT enter the challenge that was locked (and now i can't even find it), then i have to say that was ridiculous. the person that locked the thread compared it to an outtakes but i don't see how it could hurt if the posters were not entered in the challenge. the thread locker stated that it was okay to bring up an old pet thread which further made locking the new thread illogical. the older pet threads may have photos posted from people that did enter the challenge and make their photo identifiable. when that thread got locked, i stopped voting on the pet portraits with less than 20%. my votes will be scrubbed out. my way of protesting the senseless locking of threads.
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 11:29:40 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by TooCool:
Shannon, what is so hard to understand here?... Out takes by definition are not out takes until the voting has begun. Once the voting has begun, no one really gives a crap what was in the last challenge. |
See desertoddity's post after yours-
Originally posted by desertoddity:
if this discussion was sparked by the thread with people's pets that did NOT enter the challenge that was locked (and now i can't even find it), then i have to say that was ridiculous. the person that locked the thread compared it to an outtakes but i don't see how it could hurt if the posters were not entered in the challenge. the thread locker stated that it was okay to bring up an old pet thread which further made locking the new thread illogical. the older pet threads may have photos posted from people that did enter the challenge and make their photo identifiable. when that thread got locked, i stopped voting on the pet portraits with less than 20%. my votes will be scrubbed out. my way of protesting the senseless locking of threads. |
|
|
|
|
02/27/2008 11:31:48 PM · #50 |
Here's an idea - why not dilute the site down to nothing as a result of constant forum complaints?
- let people discuss photographs before submission
- names by images in voting
- let people show outtakes during voting
- consider any photograph open to interpretation and therefore never DNMC
- encourage brown ribbon chasing more
- introduce 250+ extra different coloured ribbons so that everyone can have one at the end of a challenge
- ban any negative comments and enforce a minimum 10 positive comments a week limit ("nice shot" is preferred)
Conservative quality or socialist nightmare...the choice is yours :)
N
|
|
