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03/04/2008 12:28:56 PM · #101 |
I don't know if this has been brought up, but here's an idea. You could do it like student art shows in college are done. The students first vote what pieces will be in the juried show. After those are voted on, they will go to the juried show and are voted on by a selected group of judges.
I have to tell you there were still hard feelings, some people felt their pieces weren't voted on by their peers because they weren't "popular". I always argued that unless it was a self portrait we would have never known who did it.
This idea that the OP brought up really sounds like it has possibilities. |
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03/04/2008 12:29:21 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Personally, I don't shoot for mass appeal so I don't focus on what the masses think of my work. In fact, if my stuff had mass appeal it would probably mean that I followed the rules that are understood by the base of voters which I have no interest in doing. I know the rules (I think?) but I don't want to always follow them and that's not understood by many. So for me to enter any Challenge to win would be silly.
When it comes to photography, some voters are very well educated but a lot of them aren't so things will skew on that balance. They might know a few basic things and that's what they look for and judge on. It's not enough to get to get a respectable result. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. That's fine for some but it really stinks for me.
A juried Challenge would be a welcome breath of fresh air and we might find a move away from the the usual images found on the front page. Some respected panel of judges who spend time looking at the images and don't base their ideas solely on the so-called rules would be awesome and truly educational.
I think the\is site screams for that kind of diversity and it's lack is why many of the more artistic members seem to fall off and kill their accounts. |
This, basically, is my feeling as well. I have NO problem with things-as-they-are, voting the way it is. That's the name of our game and I enjoy playing it. But I think it would be very interesting to have occasional, extra juried challenges. I am sure there are amongst us at least a few members with real-life experience jurying competitions; I'm one of them.
And I'm not sure, if we draw our juries from the membership, that real life experience is necessary anyway. In any case, I'd be happy to volunteer as a juror if people wanted me on a panel, and I'm sure we have any number of respected, talented members who would feel the same way. Heck, why don't some of us get together and create our own "jury" for a regular challenge?... |
I embrace this suggestion. |
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03/04/2008 12:51:40 PM · #103 |
I was attracted to this site BECAUSE it is a community where everyone has an equal voice, where no particular "jury" scores and comments, but the whole range from Pro to Joe. I've been in juried competitions before, paid my money to be told, "Thank you, no", without so much as a "that's nice", or even "thanks for the contribution to the prize fund". What I need, as do so many others, is a wide array of input, scoring comments from as many viewers as possible...and the opportunity to return the favor and learn from others' work at the same time.
Just my little humble opinion. If you do have a separately juried challenge I won't participate.
Cheers! |
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03/04/2008 12:52:10 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Personally, I don't shoot for mass appeal so I don't focus on what the masses think of my work. In fact, if my stuff had mass appeal it would probably mean that I followed the rules that are understood by the base of voters which I have no interest in doing. I know the rules (I think?) but I don't want to always follow them and that's not understood by many. So for me to enter any Challenge to win would be silly.
When it comes to photography, some voters are very well educated but a lot of them aren't so things will skew on that balance. They might know a few basic things and that's what they look for and judge on. It's not enough to get to get a respectable result. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. That's fine for some but it really stinks for me.
A juried Challenge would be a welcome breath of fresh air and we might find a move away from the the usual images found on the front page. Some respected panel of judges who spend time looking at the images and don't base their ideas solely on the so-called rules would be awesome and truly educational.
I think the\is site screams for that kind of diversity and it's lack is why many of the more artistic members seem to fall off and kill their accounts. |
This, basically, is my feeling as well. I have NO problem with things-as-they-are, voting the way it is. That's the name of our game and I enjoy playing it. But I think it would be very interesting to have occasional, extra juried challenges. I am sure there are amongst us at least a few members with real-life experience jurying competitions; I'm one of them.
And I'm not sure, if we draw our juries from the membership, that real life experience is necessary anyway. In any case, I'd be happy to volunteer as a juror if people wanted me on a panel, and I'm sure we have any number of respected, talented members who would feel the same way. Heck, why don't some of us get together and create our own "jury" for a regular challenge?... |
I embrace this suggestion. |
I group hug this suggestion.
p.s. a shout out to  karmat. I could not think of a more gracious way of describing my pathetic scoring record! hahahaha |
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03/04/2008 12:54:37 PM · #105 |
| I like DPC in its current format... but the FP's suggestion would be a fun experiment, either to observe or participate. No matter what voting system/juried review/judging criteria is used, some people will be happy and others will be sad. And some will feel cheated and/or underappreciated. It's life. |
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03/04/2008 01:00:08 PM · #106 |
Sounds like we need DPChallenge and DPChallengePlus.
As it currently stands you can enter a photo you think will have a better chance of doing well in the challenges, or you can enter something that requires more reflection (read detailed, artsy).
Doesn't take long to figure out the simpler/cleaner, easy to view, tack sharp images usually rise to the top in most challenges, with a few exceptions. Let's call this DPChallenge.
Now, there are those that are very good at photography and capture some very intense, dramatic, thought-provoking styled images. Many times those get lost in the "hurry-up, get thru the voting" rapid pace that many voters are a part of. Let's call the photos in this group DPChallengePlus.
People that shoot photos for themselves, in a style that they like and is perhaps unique or "artsy" - yet enter them in a challenge, really shouldn't be surprised at the end results.
Part of submitting anything is to know your audience. While I respect things like what Don is doing (Posthumous), the images that he selects are outside the "norm" of DPChallenge. Worth viewing and admiring, sure...but they fail to reach the majority of voters.
Put together a "jury" of people like Bear_Music, Posthumous, GeneralE, zeuszen...and DPChallenge fails to exist. It becomes DPChallengePlus. I say that in a respectful way as I think each of them has a unique vision. |
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03/04/2008 01:07:07 PM · #107 |
I am starting a website... I won't tell you right now, but it will be kind of connected to DPC in some ways. I was waiting for a long time, but I have this "If you don't like it, go somewhere else" thing coming on to me too often here lately, without reading the entire thread. I am not going anywhere, you guys are stuck with me LOL. I will still enter to challenges. My website will have automated stuff, like this one but will not have contests every week... rather every month. Because I will have something like American Idol in photography world (Thanks to  Yanko for the last minute idea) there will be voting by judges until there only 10 photos left. And those 10 photos will be voted by members.
If I can get this up and running, I am inviting all of you, and see how you like it, and if not, you always have DPC :)
It should be fun. |
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03/04/2008 01:15:01 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
People that shoot photos for themselves, in a style that they like and is perhaps unique or "artsy" - yet enter them in a challenge, really shouldn't be surprised at the end results. |
In the main, I think we're not.
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Part of submitting anything is to know your audience. While I respect things like what Don is doing (Posthumous), the images that he selects are outside the "norm" of DPChallenge. Worth viewing and admiring, sure...but they fail to reach the majority of voters.
Put together a "jury" of people like Bear_Music, Posthumous, GeneralE, zeuszen...and DPChallenge fails to exist. It becomes DPChallengePlus. I say that in a respectful way as I think each of them has a unique vision. |
Wow -- Thank you. :-)
I think Bear and Trevor may have it right -- form your own "FocusGroup" composed of folks whose aesthetic values and opinions you respect, and agree to compare your scores/comments for some given challenge(s); then publish the results in your own thread. It's a perfectly reasonable "overlay" on the regular challenges, much as the original league competitions were. In fact, it would be most interesting to compare the results of the two groups of voters.
There can even be more even groups doing this than are already doing so -- it certainly stimulates some sorely-needed discussion and comments on photos. |
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03/04/2008 01:15:13 PM · #109 |
"Put together a "jury" of people like Bear_Music, Posthumous, GeneralE, zeuszen...and DPChallenge fails to exist. It becomes DPChallengePlus. I say that in a respectful way as I think each of them has a unique vision."
Posthumous Ribbons has yet to zap DPC out of existence (I know because I check for it each morning). I think a panel could do the same thing, simply award its own ribbons in a thread, without threatening the existence of DPC. I'd love to do it. I don't trust myself to pick the ribbons alone. I kinda screwed up the Pet Challenge and accidentally left some great shots out of consideration.
DPChallenge is already DPChallengePlus, thanks to the forums. Have you checked how many side challenges there are lately? The main stream, on which the Ribbon Hogs thrive, remains the main stream. All that the tributaries can hope for is to perhaps expand the tastes of the "average DPC voter", show them other ways of being great. This might indeed affect the way photos are scored in the "main stream" and it damn well should. That's also part of the peer review process: improving the review as well as what is being reviewed. |
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03/04/2008 01:20:12 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
"Put together a "jury" of people like Bear_Music, Posthumous, GeneralE, zeuszen...and DPChallenge fails to exist. It becomes DPChallengePlus. I say that in a respectful way as I think each of them has a unique vision."
Posthumous Ribbons has yet to zap DPC out of existence (I know because I check for it each morning). I think a panel could do the same thing, simply award its own ribbons in a thread, without threatening the existence of DPC. I'd love to do it. I don't trust myself to pick the ribbons alone. I kinda screwed up the Pet Challenge and accidentally left some great shots out of consideration.
DPChallenge is already DPChallengePlus, thanks to the forums. Have you checked how many side challenges there are lately? The main stream, on which the Ribbon Hogs thrive, remains the main stream. All that the tributaries can hope for is to perhaps expand the tastes of the "average DPC voter", show them other ways of being great. This might indeed affect the way photos are scored in the "main stream" and it damn well should. That's also part of the peer review process: improving the review as well as what is being reviewed. |
I think what he means is not that "DPChallenge Plus" threatens the existence of DPC, but rather it becomes sort of a separate enity or division inside DPC, with different "goals"; which, I believe, agrees with what you are saying.
R.
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03/04/2008 01:20:55 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by farfel53:
I've been in juried competitions before, paid my money to be told, "Thank you, no", without so much as a "that's nice", or even "thanks for the contribution to the prize fund".
Just my little humble opinion. If you do have a separately juried challenge I won't participate.
Cheers! |
Then this will be PERFECT for you.
Here you will be told "Thank you...YES" No extra money or anything structured as you'd mentioned. It would be based around this commnuties same core principles.
Keep in mind, anyone who's against this, it can be done once or twice a year. Nobody's talking about a major DPC overhaul, just something different to add to the diversity of the site that might embrace some of the disenfranchised members who are looking beyond the basic formula.
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 13:23:50. |
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03/04/2008 01:20:57 PM · #112 |
See? Unique vision! :-)
I love the "tributaries" and "main stream" analogy.
edit to respond to Robert as well...yes, that's what I meant. Thanks!
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 13:22:19. |
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03/04/2008 01:57:27 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
See? Unique vision! :-)
I love the "tributaries" and "main stream" analogy.
edit to respond to Robert as well...yes, that's what I meant. Thanks! |
so we're on the same page, just floating on different streams? hahahaha |
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03/04/2008 01:58:51 PM · #114 |
Remind you that this is not a competitor website. I still will be here. For start, things will be free, if starts at all :P So, here is a glimpse what you might see when you go there.
New Challenge site which could be up and running this summer :).
Thanks Yanko for the images, and encouragement :)
(From the post below)
"My website will have automated stuff, like this one but will not have contests every week... rather every month. Because I will have something like American Idol in photography world (Thanks to Yanko for the last minute idea) there will be voting by judges until there only 10 photos left. And those 10 photos will be voted by members.
If I can get this up and running, I am inviting all of you, and see how you like it, and if not, you always have DPC :)"
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 14:06:06. |
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03/04/2008 02:17:06 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Sounds like we need DPChallenge and DPChallengePlus. |
I don't think we need a DPChallengePlus. We do need a DPChallenge that accept and respect different point of views out of stockphoto/mainstream taste. Actions to encourage people to find different ways of doing photography should be supported and promoted by DPC and all the members. No one of the best examples in photography are doing stockphotos. We should care about learning the best and not only the easyt and poor way of doing a clean photo. Other kind of challenges, different from the actual process, should exist and officially supported by DPC.
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03/04/2008 02:58:20 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by De Sousa:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Sounds like we need DPChallenge and DPChallengePlus. |
I don't think we need a DPChallengePlus. We do need a DPChallenge that accept and respect different point of views out of stockphoto/mainstream taste. Actions to encourage people to find different ways of doing photography should be supported and promoted by DPC and all the members. No one of the best examples in photography are doing stockphotos. We should care about learning the best and not only the easyt and poor way of doing a clean photo. Other kind of challenges, different from the actual process, should exist and officially supported by DPC. |
Not that I necessarily disagree, but why?
eta: three important letters. :)
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 14:58:38. |
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03/04/2008 03:09:17 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by karmat:
...but why? |
Same reason we came to America, same reason we went to the moon... same reason we invent Internet, and IPod... same reason we change our fashion every year....
It gets boring sometimes and little change wouldn't hurt LOL
Your question remind me my grandpa's question he used to ask when we want something different LOL
No offense please, it's a joke :D
Although, outcome of the scores is what is making me curious in this case.
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 15:10:46. |
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03/04/2008 03:17:07 PM · #118 |
I don't think the odd juried challenge would be a bad thing. Maybe 2 or 3 a year?
However, I also don't think the jurors should be members of the site, perhaps a relatively well known pro would be a good choice.
It wouldn't even have to be a separate challenge, but simply a ranking of all images and commentary on their top 15 or 20 images. |
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03/04/2008 03:17:27 PM · #119 |
This is sorta the idea behind the Posthumous weekly ribbon thread isn't it?
Perhaps choose photographers you'd like to vote on images and have them rate their top 3.
Here are some other types of ribbons "judges" have given!:
 (even the likes of metatate has one!)
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03/04/2008 03:18:23 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Not that I necessarily disagree, but why?
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but why not? |
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03/04/2008 03:37:01 PM · #121 |
my question "why" was in response to de sousa's post about "accepting" other things than "stock" (paraphrased) NOT why juried competitions.
So,we have two or three a year. Who gets to participate, and how do we determine that? |
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03/04/2008 03:39:52 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by karmat:
...Who gets to participate, and how do we determine that? |
That's where you come in... SCs think about it, and see if it's doable first. New codes might be written, is Langdon up to it?
So, many questions. It might take some time. If I only hear from one of you "Good idea, we will think about it since many people for the idea"... and we'll check you from time to time to keep the subject up to date LOL
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 15:41:10. |
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03/04/2008 03:46:27 PM · #123 |
This is what I don't get. Someone has an idea (good or bad) but then expects someone else to work out the details.
FocusPoint - it's your idea. How do you see this working? How would you propose the judges be chosen? Who do you think should be allowed to enter? |
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03/04/2008 03:47:59 PM · #124 |
Great, come up with an idea, and let "us" get the blame when we "decide." :)
Here's the problem. If we let it be open to everyone, and I suspect *most* people would want to be involved, there is a huge number of entries. I seriously doubt 5, 7, or howevermany judges are going to have the time or want to through 200+ entries in depth. (and that is a very conservative number, I think).
So, we are forced with coming up with some criteria.
Number of entries -- those that have more or less are "out"
Average score -- those that are too high or low are "out"
Length of time on site -- those that have been here too long, or not long enough, are "out."
Then, we have forum storms calling us elitest, etc. because of the criteria we chose.
You seem to feel strongly about the effort. I, at best, am ambivalent to it. It might be "fun," in one sense, but the headache on "my" end is much greater. :)
Therefore, I volley the ball back to you. Assuming coding was minimal, please --
* Clearly define who should be eligible to enter.
* Clearly define who the judges should be (specific names are not necessary, qualifications etc. are fine) |
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03/04/2008 03:56:58 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by karmat:
* Clearly define who should be eligible to enter.
* Clearly define who the judges should be (specific names are not necessary, qualifications etc. are fine) |
My idea is very very simple. Have this kind of challenge maybe three times a year, even maybe two, doesn't matter. So, we think there will be lots of people would be entering, but maybe not. Say there will be 400 entry. Langdon could start a 48 hour open challenge, which should give everyone to come up with their own ideas. Also this could limit the entries. Not that I would like the entries to be less, but let's start with that.
Judges selected by SCs. I respect and trust you guys, you do know more people than most of us. Maybe we have a invitations to those who were and are judges, and select maybe 5 from the list.
Show the images for 3 days, or a week... without vote. Then judges start voting. I know I can eliminate about 75% of the entries in a day. Most judges do. Then rest could be votes again until there are 10 left, and say they spend a week or two... I don't know. Time can be calculated later...
DPC either could select 5 judges per challenge, or 5 judges per year.
that's it!
EDIT.
I am for commenting all the images... Each photo should be commented at least once by one of the judges.
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 15:59:13. |
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(even the likes of metatate has one!)