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03/04/2008 05:00:37 PM · #151 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... Certainly, no one juror will please everyone, but that's the way juried competitions are. |
Which is a good reason for switching them up for each one of these challenges. |
Exactly. I don't think the panel of judges should be fixed. |
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03/04/2008 05:02:09 PM · #152 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I would say ANY member can enter an image...so there will be 400-600 images and the jury should vote them ALL. It's not that difficult to vote that many images. If a Memeber agrees to be on the jury they will simply agree to vote on all the image...no biggie.
Comments, while nice should NOT be necessary. That will kill them. I'd rather they look at an image fairly and properly, then vote. Commenting is cool but might zonk too much of their time and make it a harder endeavor.
Picking a jury is harder but I would highly reccomend it NOT be based on being a Ribbon Winner. There are many factors that would make this Challenge a cool thing that lie far outside the DPC norm. I think that's the most important thing to have in play. |
I think that's the biggest question with this. How does one choose the jury? On what criteria? Who decides what the criteria should be?
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 17:02:49. |
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03/04/2008 05:02:12 PM · #153 |
I know that we could easily get 10, longstanding, well respected members that would gladly do a job that the site would respect and honor.
Zeuszen, Bear, Pedro(if he can find his pant?) Graphicfunk, De Sousa, Posthumous, Melethia, Gringo, Sher, Goodman, grigrigirl, imagineer, e301...
They're ALL nice, helpful, they know their shit, they know the site, they are liked, they are artistic and technically aware but not trapped.
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 17:26:57. |
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03/04/2008 05:04:45 PM · #154 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I would say ANY member can enter an image...so there will be 400-600 images and the jury should vote them ALL. It's not that difficult to vote that many images. If a Memeber agrees to be on the jury they will simply agree to vote on all the image...no biggie.
Comments, while nice should NOT be necessary. That will kill them. I'd rather they look at an image fairly and properly, then vote. Commenting is cool but might zonk too much of their time and make it a harder endeavor.
Picking a jury is harder but I would highly reccomend it NOT be based on being a Ribbon Winner. There are many factors that would make this Challenge a cool thing that lie far outside the DPC norm. I think that's the most important thing to have in play. |
I think that's the biggest question with this. How does one choose the jury? On what criteria? |
There is a juried show every year at the local Art Institute. They have a committee that selects and solicits potential jurors. |
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03/04/2008 05:05:43 PM · #155 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
I'm not against the idea of having a few of these each year. But....
As the competition chair for my camera club I'm responsible for getting outside judges for our twice-monthly competitions. Sometimes we have a panel of 3, sometimes solo judges, and sometimes we fill in with club members.
And here's what I get to hear:
Who will the judges be, I want to tailor my entry for them.
That landscape photographer was too hard on my landscape...he's jealous.
That nature photographer promoted all the nature shots, my portrait was ignored.
Three judges is too many.
One judge is too biased.
Club members shouldn't judge, they know everyone's style and won't be unbiased.
...and on, and on.
Here's what the judges continuously say:
Judging is a subjective art. After the technical aspects of an image are considered the rest is just my opinion.
And here's what I believe:
Given any number of judges the cream will rise to the top. The same images judged by 500 DPC'rs, 3 professional photographers, or a handful of wags off the street will tend to sort out the same. The particular rank (which is first, second, ...tenth) may change, but good is good and is usually recognized as such. What is "great," however, may be overlooked under any scheme.
That's my 2 cents. ;-Þ |
No matter how well an idea is conceived and executed, you will hear all kinds of chatter; little difference between an ambitious gallery project and a camera club here.
The judges you quote should be pressed to justify their opinions. It may not change your conclusion, but, at least, we'll learn something in the process.
"Given any number of judges" -I predict the opposite will happen- the crud will rise to the top. It always does, and with quantitative triumph.
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03/04/2008 05:10:01 PM · #156 |
Originally posted by citymars:
I'm trying to figure out why this idea and this thread bother me, without just spewing negativity all over the place. But honestly, I don't like this idea, but why?
Someone else may have nailed it earlier: if it isn't broken, don't fix it. At what point is it better to simply accept that our favorites may not be the group favorites? |
I'm feeling uncomfortable about this as you are and not entirely sure why. My sense is that this idea (not necessarily a bad one) has more to do with a general distrust for the voting masses who without proper knowledge or understanding continuously get the winners wrong. 'If only the challenges were juried... I just know the real winners will be recognized.' Smacks a little bit of elitism and artistic snobbery. Is there a chance that the voters have ever been right. If you go by the Postumous awards, as an example, the answer would be no. What are the chances that any image presented by the 'ribbon hogs' will ever be accepted as a worthy winner by some. Very slim I think. |
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03/04/2008 05:12:51 PM · #157 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I would say ANY member can enter an image...so there will be 400-600 images and the jury should vote them ALL. It's not that difficult to vote that many images. If a Memeber agrees to be on the jury they will simply agree to vote on all the image...no biggie.
Comments, while nice should NOT be necessary. That will kill them. I'd rather they look at an image fairly and properly, then vote. Commenting is cool but might zonk too much of their time and make it a harder endeavor.
Picking a jury is harder but I would highly reccomend it NOT be based on being a Ribbon Winner. There are many factors that would make this Challenge a cool thing that lie far outside the DPC norm. I think that's the most important thing to have in play. |
I think that's the biggest question with this. How does one choose the jury? On what criteria? |
There is a juried show every year at the local Art Institute. They have a committee that selects and solicits potential jurors. |
Relating that to this site, are you suggesting that the SC be the committee and they solicit who they think should be on the jury? Or should the committee be some other group? In my mind it should be some other group. How that group is chosen, I have no idea. |
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03/04/2008 05:15:43 PM · #158 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
No matter how well an idea is conceived and executed, you will hear all kinds of chatter; little difference between an ambitious gallery project and a camera club here.
The judges you quote should be pressed to justify their opinions. It may not change your conclusion, but, at least, we'll learn something in the process.
"Given any number of judges" -I predict the opposite will happen- the crud will rise to the top. It always does, and with quantitative triumph. |
I agree, which is why I said, Originally posted by KaDi:
What is "great," however, may be overlooked under any scheme.
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The judges we have are pressed to support their opinions. However time constraints usually leave them commenting on the better shots, not the ones that "fail." It seems to me that part of the intent of the OP's suggestion is to have lower votes (3's, e.g.) explained. I doubt this would happen but am open to the experiment. |
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03/04/2008 05:17:23 PM · #159 |
Originally posted by Qart:
My sense is that this idea (not necessarily a bad one) has more to do with a general distrust for the voting masses who without proper knowledge or understanding continuously get the winners wrong. |
BINGO!!!
They don't always get it wrong but it would be nice to have a group that understands the site...the eye-candy factor, the fact that some images have been done a million times over and are less likely to get bowled over by those issues than a newbie.
There is a newbie factor that plays heavily here and this might be a nice way to occasionally depart from that. There are many people here who can easily pick the Blue Ribbon winners ahead of time...why is that?
AND let them take their time voting ...give them two weeks. If that's what it takes. No rush...just do it right.
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 17:28:14. |
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03/04/2008 05:25:28 PM · #160 |
Oh no, someone is 'WRONG' on the internet.
Sorry, but no result is wrong. It's just a result that you may not agree with.
Same thing will happen with a jury.
Which means we should try it. How wrong could a jury be anyway? ;oP
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 17:29:02. |
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03/04/2008 05:29:06 PM · #161 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by Qart:
My sense is that this idea (not necessarily a bad one) has more to do with a general distrust for the voting masses who without proper knowledge or understanding continuously get the winners wrong. |
BINGO!!!
They don't always get it wrong but it would be nice to have a group that understands the site...the eye-candy factor, the fact that some images have been done a million times over and are less like to get bowled over by those issues than a newbie.
There is a newbie factor that plays heavily here and this might be a nice way to occasionally depart from that. There are many people here who can easily pick the Blue Ribbon winners ahead of time...why is that? |
Probably because in many cases the winner DOES stand out... eye candy or not. The newbie factor... for lack of better terms is not a negative and when mixed with the voting veterans does give a pretty good ballance. |
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03/04/2008 05:31:19 PM · #162 |
It will all end up in tears.
Everyone will hate the SC, everyone will hate the Judges, the SC, the Judges are all wrong.
This is not going to end up prettily. |
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03/04/2008 05:37:02 PM · #163 |
| We still talking about this subject? geez.. |
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03/04/2008 05:39:41 PM · #164 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
It will all end up in tears.
Everyone will hate the SC, everyone will hate the Judges, the SC, the Judges are all wrong.
This is not going to end up prettily. |
Or it will end up in smiles.
The judges could be selected by poll from a pool. They would know we all love and respect them.
They would vote...
...and we might be surprised at the results.
I suspect, however, the learning experience would be learning what the judges like and not so much anything else.
As for the rest, the judges are already wrong (a priori) and the SC is contemptible (by default). |
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03/04/2008 05:50:45 PM · #165 |
Originally posted by Qart:
The newbie factor... for lack of better terms is not a negative and when mixed with the voting veterans does give a pretty good ballance. |
Now, there we disagree. I think the newbie factor reduces things down to formula. It's a negative in my mind.
When the Teams (League thing) needed some quick Ribbons they strted to serve up Waterglass stuff amd what they knew would do well. And they did do well.
Things that wowed me when I first joined the site and started to study photography don't blow me away anymore. For example, now that I have an idea how to take a decent bug macro I'm far less impressed than the first time I saw Jacko's Dragonfly or a waterdrop. I've tried them...I know what it takes to get a good shot and they no longer excite me.
You can be a newbie for 6 months to a year by then you've seen it all and they factor in heavily.
Animal Farm comment below, LOL. Does that make me Napoleon? Ouch!
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 17:56:55. |
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03/04/2008 05:50:51 PM · #166 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
It will all end up in tears.
Everyone will hate the SC, everyone will hate the Judges, the SC, the Judges are all wrong.
This is not going to end up prettily. |
I wouldn't worry about it. First, there won't be too many challenges, just a very few. And people will adjust, I believe, and go on since the regular challenges will continue as they are now.
It's experiment, and I say let's do one, I always for try outs... and see if we like it or not. It could be fun. Check out my other ideas about having sound recordings with judges actually voting photos. It might be fun and entertaining.
Seems like some of us already had the idea, probably suggested in the past but it was never tried. |
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03/04/2008 05:51:47 PM · #167 |
| Why is some of this beginning to sound like Animal Farm? |
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03/04/2008 05:53:54 PM · #168 |
Originally posted by tnun:
Why is some of this beginning to sound like Animal Farm? |
Because some of us are more equal than others? |
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03/04/2008 05:55:52 PM · #169 |
Originally posted by JulietNN:
It will all end up in tears.
Everyone will hate the SC, everyone will hate the Judges, the SC, the Judges are all wrong.
This is not going to end up prettily. |
Judges are not there to be popular. They're there to look beyond the "pretty" and report back. |
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03/04/2008 05:58:58 PM · #170 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I would say ANY paid member can enter an image...so there will be 400-600 images and the jury should vote them ALL. It's not that difficult to vote that many images. If a Memeber agrees to be on the jury they will simply agree to vote on all the image...no biggie. ... |
That's better. :-) |
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03/04/2008 06:57:23 PM · #171 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
...The judges could be selected by poll from a pool... |
Oh, goody! Another poll suggestion! .....just messing with you  KaDi...!!
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03/04/2008 06:59:00 PM · #172 |
| The Wheels of the Bus Go ROund and Round ,,,,,,,,,,, sing with me!!!!!!!!!! |
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03/04/2008 07:07:43 PM · #173 |
The Driver on the bus says MOVE on back, Move on Back.......!
Message edited by author 2008-03-04 19:08:12. |
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03/04/2008 07:09:26 PM · #174 |
Originally posted by Venom:
Originally posted by KaDi:
...The judges could be selected by poll from a pool... |
Oh, goody! Another poll suggestion! .....just messing with you KaDi...!! |
No problem. I was just messing with "You"...all.
(Besides, how many opportunities does someone have to say "poll from a pool"?) |
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03/04/2008 07:23:04 PM · #175 |
I like the idea of judge challenges. It would be like a new dpchallenge and who isn't for that? Wouldn't this be cool to see on the home page for one week just to test it out?
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