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 04/06/2004 04:02:55 AM · #1
Hi
I was able to calibrate my monitor and created 3 new profiles, assuming if am not happy with first one so all i got do is go to control panel > display>settings.advance>color management and change the current profile and add one of the two remaining profile . Is this right method.

My camera Powershot a40 does not have an associated profile with it.

I have two main interest , one is shoot subjects like this traditional Indian garment called sari and than take print from an external professional Lab.

Sari

Given below are example of Phtograph that intend to use for only web display and not for printing.

For Web Display Sample 1

For Web Display Sample 2

For Web Display Sample 3

I have been advised that I should use Web Graphics Default In Color Setting for
their is no associated profile with ur camera, PS is falsely reporting that i sue , sRGB Color Space Profile . Reason i am told that i am using older version of PS 6/7 and i am told if i buy the original version of latest PSCS i will find that PSCS will say their is no associated profile.

I have been told "Most of ur images will loose saturation in the RGB extreme bcoz they are out of gamut for Srgb space. But you have only choice to use sRGB in ur case bcoz ur camera shoots close to sRGB space but not in sRGB"

When i choose Graphics Default for Setting , I get following in color space
RGB: sRGB IEC6 1966-2.1
CMKY: U.S Web Coated (SWOP) V2
Gray: Gray Gamma 2.2
Dot : Dot Gain 20%

Color Management Policies
All are set to OFF

Well i had just got my hard disk replaced and it was really dumb of me to take things for granted that neither did i save my previous icc profile.
I have heard people of complaining of how bad their printouts were as compared to what they saw on Monitor , Well i had no such issues. 90% of time Situation was What I Saw Is What I got ( I guess Lucks sometimes favors fool).

So should i keep above setting ?
Will that ensure i get the best printouts
Second Issue is

Lets suppose i have take 8x10 Printouts , Should i first resize for 8x10 using "Tutorial from DPC " and than do any image manipulation or first edit than resize .

Last Issue is When i order my prints , since icc profile will be embedded and most probabaly icc profile wont match his working space ( lab's only job is to pribnting and no editing). So i should instruct lab to Use embedded profile (instead of working space) .

I am getting the hang of the whole issue , certain problems still there.

After one calibrates monitor , how do they make sure what they see on monitor is what will be printed i mean, how does this happen.

Since i am getting printout from an external Lab , how do i make sure that i get same results as what i see on monitor.

Message edited by author 2004-04-06 04:10:12.
 04/06/2004 08:59:43 AM · #2
anyone there? Hello?, Come on help me out
 04/06/2004 12:45:36 PM · #3
Come on members do not dissappoint me, Dont make me come down on my knees( well i am almost there, third reply will make it offical).

i have loads of images that need to be printed for work, loads of them need to be clicked, till my doubts are cleared i wont go ahead. Work is piling

Come on,some one just reply

Message edited by author 2004-04-06 12:48:30.
 04/06/2004 12:50:22 PM · #4
Sorry I can't help ya, but maybe this will bump it so someone who can help will see it.

When I sent in my print file, I didn't resize it to 11x14 (the size I ordered)...I just made sure the ratio would fit. I didn't fool with any of the color calibrations and it turned out wonderfully. Good luck!
 04/06/2004 12:53:31 PM · #5
thanks for the reply at least you saved me from coming down on knees, thanks
 04/06/2004 12:55:18 PM · #6
I'm not sure I can help - I don't understand a lot of what you're saying, and besides there is so much stuff there you're almost asking for an essay in reply.

With your a40, I'd stick in all cases to working in sRGB - and if you can embed that profile into your shots and get your lab to print with that profile, you'll be happy 90% of the time.

Images thhat are full colour yet largely grey-world in look are the most difficult/best test. If your printer is dealing with metamersim issues OK, then you have very little to be worried about.

I use as a test shot - it's actually a full colour image, rather than the b/w it seems to be - with all the printers I've tried, and when setting up my own ... and the best results so far came from dpcprints.

I have found that if I calibrate my monitor, and then work in sRGB in terms of printing, that the results in both directions have been satisfactory for my own use: but to throw another issue into the mix, you need to be certain that you're working in the right colour-space for not only your printer, but for your paper too. Ilford Galerie, for example, recommends (though i find this over-done), a +5 push of magenta.

Basically, if you're happy 90% of the time ... I think you're doing pretty well.

Ed
 04/06/2004 01:05:49 PM · #7
I realize my mistake of writing a huge Post, I thought i will just get all the answers to my problems for once.

I guess confused all the members.

Well I used to get 90% sucess rate before i got my hard disk replaced, those were some great times

Message edited by author 2004-04-06 13:43:45.
 04/06/2004 01:47:50 PM · #8
I don't know much about this issue, and have yet to find a source of information that, for me, is comprehensive. By that, I mean that most of what I read on the subject usually assumes some level of knowledge or understanding beyond what I have.

However, here's what little I do know (or think I know) on the issue regarding the A40:

I'm about 99% sure that the A40 does, in fact, embed a profile. My reasons for saying this (besides that I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere once upon a time) are that 1) when I change the working profile in PS, then open an image straight from the camera, it gives the option to use the embedded profile, convert to the working color space, or discard the profile altogether and "don't color manage"; and 2) when I first run an image through NeatImage, which strips out all the extra info in the image, like the EXIF data, I don't get that message - the color profile has been removed. So, I'm pretty sure there is a profile embedded by the A40. (I'm not sure how you could prove or disprove that PS is "falsely" reporting this. I'll have to think about that...)

The problem (as far as I understand it) is that it embeds the "sRBG IEC61966-2.1" profile, which is supposed to be the worst profile you can use. I guess it's geared entirely towards low-end monitors. So it will work OK for generating web images, but is not good for print.

As far as what color space to use, that's where I start to get lost. For a while I did like you mentioned, calibrating my monitor, saving the profile and using that. But I wasn't confident that I understood just what the ramifications of that were, so lately I've just switched over to using the "Adobe RGB (1998)" space, which I've read as being at least better, and a good basic space to work in. (Anyone feel free to point out if this is totally wrong...)
04/06/2004 02:01:23 PM · #9
Originally posted by ScottK:

I'm about 99% sure that the A40 does, in fact, embed a profile. My reasons for saying this (besides that I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere once upon a time) are that 1) when I change the working profile in PS, then open an image straight from the camera, it gives the option to use the embedded profile, convert to the working color space, or discard the profile altogether and "don't color manage"; and 2) when I first run an image through NeatImage, which strips out all the extra info in the image, like the EXIF data, I don't get that message - the color profile has been removed. So, I'm pretty sure there is a profile embedded by the A40. (I'm not sure how you could prove or disprove that PS is "falsely" reporting this. I'll have to think about that...)

The problem (as far as I understand it) is that it embeds the "sRBG IEC61966-2.1" profile, which is supposed to be the worst profile you can use. I guess it's geared entirely towards low-end monitors. So it will work OK for generating web images, but is not good for print.

As far as what color space to use, that's where I start to get lost. For a while I did like you mentioned, calibrating my monitor, saving the profile and using that. But I wasn't confident that I understood just what the ramifications of that were, so lately I've just switched over to using the "Adobe RGB (1998)" space, which I've read as being at least better, and a good basic space to work in. (Anyone feel free to point out if this is totally wrong...)


Well the false reporting of profile by PS, i was told by some one . Also the need to work in color space was advised by same person, he felt a40 didnot shoot in same gamut of color as adobe rgb color space.

Since Sunday i have been trying calibrate monitor, most guide on net start simple and after a while i start getting confused.
As far as calibration is concerned all i could realize was that , need to set bal point is very important, that i did perfectly from aim-dtp tutorial, than second step is to gamma of your monitor that was bit confusing, most difficult was to match red, green and blue gamma channels in adobe.

I just wanted to know was do resize and than edit or edit and resize.


04/06/2004 03:53:45 PM · #10
Originally posted by General:
Hi
I was able to calibrate my monitor and created 3 new profiles, assuming if am not happy with first one so all i got do is go to control panel > display>settings.advance>color management and change the current profile and add one of the two remaining profile . Is this right method.

Multiple profiles? If you actually calibrated (and profiled) your monitor, that would not be necessary. Based on other info you've provided, you're calibrating your monitor visually, which is inherently flawed. Your eye is so adaptive, particularly to white (points), that you'll get different results depending on: where the sun is in the sky (if you have windows); whether or not it is night; whether your overhead lights are on or off; whether you have a nearby desk lamp on or off; et cetera (ad near-infinitum).

Originally posted by General:

My camera Powershot a40 does not have an associated profile with it.

Then assume sRGB (not in all cases, just yours).

Originally posted by General:

I have been advised that I should use Web Graphics Default In Color Setting for
their is no associated profile with ur camera, PS is falsely reporting that i sue , sRGB Color Space Profile . Reason i am told that i am using older version of PS 6/7 and i am told if i buy the original version of latest PSCS i will find that PSCS will say their is no associated profile.

This is mostly irrelevant: Just assign the sRGB profile to your images (or leave it as sRGB if it says so).

Originally posted by General:

I have been told "Most of ur images will loose saturation in the RGB extreme bcoz they are out of gamut for Srgb space. But you have only choice to use sRGB in ur case bcoz ur camera shoots close to sRGB space but not in sRGB"

If you really care about this, then you should create a profile for your camera, which means you'll have to purchase a color target of some kind. For the kind of gamut issues you're likely to encounter, you really shouldn't be concerned. In most cases, sRGB is going to be sufficient and is certainly going to be wide enough for your printing purposes.

Originally posted by General:

Lets suppose i have take 8x10 Printouts , Should i first resize for 8x10 using "Tutorial from DPC " and than do any image manipulation or first edit than resize .

Edit, then resize, although you might want to crop to the 8x10 aspect ratio first. If you don't understand what that means, then just edit then resize and ignore what I said about aspect ratio.

Originally posted by General:

Last Issue is When i order my prints , since icc profile will be embedded and most probabaly icc profile wont match his working space ( lab's only job is to pribnting and no editing). So i should instruct lab to Use embedded profile (instead of working space) .

In most cases, it's better for you to convert to the output device (lab's printer) profile and send that. Really, you should talk to your lab since they ought to have all the information you need.

Originally posted by General:

I am getting the hang of the whole issue , certain problems still there.

No, I don't think you're getting the hang of it. It's much more complicated than you'd like it to be.

Originally posted by General:

After one calibrates monitor , how do they make sure what they see on monitor is what will be printed i mean, how does this happen.

Never. In all likelihood, your monitor's gamut is larger than the printer's gamut. That means you can see colors on your monitor which cannot be reproduced on the printer. Similarly, there are (likely) colors than can be produced on the printer which cannot be seen on your monitor.
 04/06/2004 03:58:30 PM · #11
Real World Color Management, by Bruce Fraser $34.99 on Amazon.com

You are asking a lot of questions, about a fairly complex subject and the questions you are asking indicate you don't have a good grasp of the basics, so that book would be a real good place to look for some background, all the way up to setting up a good, well managed flow and what settings to use in a wide variety of tools.

Color Confidence: The Digital Photographer's Guide to Color Management by Tim Grey $31.99 at Amazon is also supposed to be good, but I haven't read it. The author also publishes the daily DDQ mailing list which has a lot of hints and tips on printing and colour management and is well worth signing up for.


04/06/2004 04:06:45 PM · #12
Dwoolridge's answers are all pretty much spot on for this level of discussion.

I'd agree that if you are using adobe gamma and eyeballing the calibration, that you should basically just default to sRGB, set Photoshop to convert to that working profile and just work in that space.

Without proper calibration and profiling the rest of a colour managed workflow is mostly just wasting your time. The first, most important part of all this is to get your monitor in to a known space, calibrate it, then profile it correctly so that you can then have a starting point to do colour managed editing to your files. Otherwise it is all just guessing - you might get lucky, and many people do get prints that they are happy with how close a match they are to what they see on the screen.

Note also that calibrating a camera is something typically done at the factory - you can create a profile to associate with the camera, but typically you do not do any calibration.

Calibrating means adjusting something until it comes within a known set of parameters - it is an active process.
Profiling means measuring how far something deviates from a known set, and working out adjustments to compensate for that - it is essentially a passive process.

You typically profile input and output devices because you can't do much to calibrate them. The main exception is the monitor which can be calibrated and profiled.

There is a whole lot more to this subject, but the first part is having a calibrated and profiled monitor. If you are using Adobe Gamma, which is a reasonable starting point (but isn't useful for a colour managed workflow), it isn't worth enabling any of the other color management features of photoshop.
 04/06/2004 07:59:36 PM · #13
I have to agree with Gordon.

Also if you are going to shoot objects like you posted above, you may want to build a light tent/box out of PVC and a white fabric. Real cheap to build and the lighting is 100% better.

Good luck :)

Originally posted by Gordon:
You are asking a lot of questions, about a fairly complex subject and the questions you are asking indicate you don't have a good grasp of the basics, so that book would be a real good place to look for some background, all the way up to setting up a good, well managed flow and what settings to use in a wide variety of tools.

04/06/2004 09:20:34 PM · #14
Originally posted by Gordon:
Real World Color Management, by Bruce Fraser $34.99 on Amazon.com

Color Confidence: The Digital Photographer's Guide to Color Management by Tim Grey $31.99 at Amazon is also supposed to be good, but I haven't read it. The author also publishes the daily DDQ mailing list which has a lot of hints and tips on printing and colour management and is well worth signing up for.


My Mom is supposed to travel top USA in next two months. I will tell her to buy the above mentioned books , Are these two books good enough or i need to look around.I have started to under understand it a little bit , but still not very clear. My Problem is that till things donot get cleared it is is difficult for me to just accept them. Thanks for tips.



Message edited by author 2004-04-06 21:29:39.
 04/06/2004 09:32:00 PM · #15
BTW , I guess it is expensive to Print at Home as compared to a Professional Lab Right? but we get more control right.

I mainly Print 8x10, will it be worth in future to opt for good quality printer and print from home, cost will go up considerably but will quality be great
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