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 12/11/2008 01:58:11 PM · #1


Message edited by author 2008-12-15 01:42:28.
 12/11/2008 02:07:50 PM · #2
Where is it posted that it's really her? All I've seen is that they found remains.
 12/11/2008 02:34:20 PM · #3
Originally posted by Photomom1981:


people like that are the one who need the FAMILY COUNCELING...(hehe)


Others need couseling AND spell check.
 12/11/2008 02:49:07 PM · #4
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Photomom1981:


people like that are the one who need the FAMILY COUNCELING...(hehe)


Others need couseling AND spell check.

Oh the irony.

Yeah, an act of horrible violence against a human life will surely be true dispassionate justice for the act of horrible violence committed against a human life. And thirsting for such an outcome is surely the best use of our compassion.
 12/11/2008 03:42:58 PM · #5
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Photomom1981:


people like that are the one who need the FAMILY COUNCELING...(hehe)


Others need couseling AND spell check.


What is couseling?

Sum obbveeusly doo nead spel chek.
 12/11/2008 07:07:43 PM · #6
Wow. No reply.

Love it!
 12/11/2008 10:52:11 PM · #7


Message edited by author 2008-12-15 01:42:06.
 12/11/2008 10:53:38 PM · #8
What, we're not bloodthirsty enough for you?
 12/12/2008 12:01:43 AM · #9
Originally posted by Photomom1981:
Why you type from a cell phone, the whole spell check is kinda out.

and no I wasn't going to reply to assholistic comments.


I'll reply to yours though.
 12/12/2008 12:11:31 AM · #10
Originally posted by BeeCee:
What, we're not bloodthirsty enough for you?


Nancy Grace will take care of the bloodthirstiness for us soon, I'm sure.

Poor kid...
 12/12/2008 12:31:17 AM · #11
Kinda makes me wonder when will we start checking to make sure that people with mental disabilities are actually on the meds they are supposed to be taking. Parents with mental disorders that have shown a history of having violent or harmful outbursts should have their levels checked monthly by law to make sure they stay in control of their bodies and minds!
 12/12/2008 01:54:40 AM · #12


Message edited by author 2008-12-15 01:41:46.
 12/12/2008 08:12:51 AM · #13
Originally posted by Photomom1981:
Why you type from a cell phone, the whole spell check is kinda out.

and no I wasn't going to reply to assholistic comments.


Ummm, I wasn't talking about you not replying.
 12/12/2008 08:43:51 AM · #14
Originally posted by Louis:
Yeah, an act of horrible violence against a human life will surely be true dispassionate justice for the act of horrible violence committed against a human life. And thirsting for such an outcome is surely the best use of our compassion.

What should be done?

There are too many instances of documented atrocities committed by the compassionate release of "rehabilitated" violent criminals.

How can we be compassionate, and not endanger the general population?

It's expensive, and rapidly becoming difficult to house the prisoners, so what are we to do with these people who commit these violent crimes to ensure our safety?

I'd love to hear some ideas on how we as a society are supposed to be compassionate and safe without spending millions of dollars on maintenance for people who refuse to exist within the tenets of said society.
 12/12/2008 09:40:00 AM · #15
I shouldn't even bother but I have a few minutes before bed while waiting on something to finish up...

First unless there has been an update Casey has not been convicted. She has been arrested but has she even been formally charged with a crime yet? I only ask before you would tar, feather, and crucify her.

No one knows yet, if the remains are of Caylee. It is very likely given the location however the child has not been positively identified, nor the remains dated.

No one knows yet, how this child died. Other than having a broken leg there has been no mention of any other trauma. It could have been accidental or negligence, not outright cold blooded murder.

I won't speculate on the sheer number of possible accidents that can happen in a home to break limbs or cause death.

But for sake of argument lets say Casey did indeed kill her daughter Caylee in a moment of blood thirsty rage. Why, was it something the daughter did or say to trigger the mother, was the mother tired of caring for her, could she have been crying and Casey couldn't stop her atop having a nervous breakdown and lashed out. Of course any of these are possible given the limited information we have been given.

However still, this does not suggest a pattern of violent crime from Casey. Nor does it show any clear threat to the rest of society, only to future offspring, at this time.

There is a strong chance, given it was her own daughter, that she is in need of serious psychiatric help if she is guilty. There is a good chance in that case psychiatric counseling, medication, and monitoring may be enough to ensure she never hurts another person or thing as long as she lives.

Two things bother me whenever a case like this comes to light, where a parent, especially a mother, has brought possible harm on offspring. The natural parental instinct is to guard ones offspring with ones life. It is not a matter of being a good person, it is a deep rooted instinct for even the most basic of primate and human survival.

It bothers me, in cases like this, that something has disrupted such a deep rooted instinct. It also bothers me thinking that in a case like this the parent might not feel remorse. Not because remorse is the right thing to feel, but because it further shows how wrong something is wired in them, to not feel remorse over the loss of ones offspring.

How horrible that must be for them, it makes me wonder if they are able to feel the love or worth of the gift they have been given. To be blind to that is truly heart breaking.

I am also troubled by the urge to enact life prison sentences as a first or only solution, for a majority of crimes, without even considering things like house arrest with location monitoring, they can do it in real time now.

Or minimal security camps or apartments. I know in the UK non-violent criminals sometimes get placed in minimal security apartments, with the basic comforts of home, open visitation, their own front door and key. However they are monitored, the rest of society is safe from them, however their suffering is minimal.

I just can't get over this desire to treat everyone equally and wish no harm to anyone if possible, regardless of their past or them "deserving" it.

Thanks for reading, as always.
12/12/2008 10:01:00 AM · #16
I would like to clarify that my comments were meant in a general sense from a genuine curiosity to hear ideas.

I live in an area where there are six prisons within fifty miles from me, all of which have overcrowding issues and that cost the taxpayers a lot of money.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't want them released and living next door to my family, so what's an equitable solution?
 12/12/2008 10:02:33 AM · #17
Thank you for clarifying that Jeb, I might be back to take another crack when I wake up. Be well.
12/13/2008 03:04:37 AM · #18


Message edited by author 2008-12-15 01:41:16.
 12/13/2008 10:49:34 AM · #19
Well I wouldn't have said anything about the misspelling words because it's just doesn't matter to me and I'm not grading you on your spelling but here's the way I see it...

It's not confirmed that it's her body and although it does look like she murdered her child the upside to our court system is your innocent until proven guilty.

I'm not saying that she isn't a piece of crap or a terrible mother but until she goes to court and there is evidence proving that she did it I don't think we should accuse her of murder.

I will however allow you to hold on to your torch and pitch fork for the time being but don't get the angry mom mob out just yet.


12/13/2008 01:33:35 PM · #20
I read an article yesterday that said they linked something found at the scene to something in the Anthony home (they weren't saying what that was though) ... doesn't look good for Casey ...
 12/14/2008 01:08:09 PM · #21


Message edited by author 2008-12-15 01:41:02.
 12/14/2008 02:53:43 PM · #22
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

There are too many instances of documented atrocities committed by the compassionate release of "rehabilitated" violent criminals.

How can we be compassionate, and not endanger the general population?

It's expensive, and rapidly becoming difficult to house the prisoners, so what are we to do with these people who commit these violent crimes to ensure our safety?

I'd love to hear some ideas on how we as a society are supposed to be compassionate and safe without spending millions of dollars on maintenance for people who refuse to exist within the tenets of said society.


Why do these un-compassionate people automatically deserve compassion? I think that if the punishment for a crime were for the violent criminal to be subjected to the same treatment his victim was subjected to, there would be a great decrease in the number of folks in prison that we'd have to support. For one, there would be less crime, and for another some criminals would have been tortured and killed in the same manner they tortured and killed their victims.

I think it should be mandatory for pre-meditated, violent crimes.

I'm sure folks think I'm a bit harsh to be saying that... but I'm not nearly as harsh as the people we are protecting in our prisons who did these horrible acts for the sheer joy of doing them. And their reward for doing these horrible things is that they no longer have to work for a living, they get three meals a day and their room paid for... with cable TV and air-conditioning and heat. Their laundry is even done for them. Still, would I want to live in prison? No.
But, it's quite a cushy life compared to what they deserve, in my opinion.

Message edited by author 2008-12-14 14:54:07.
 12/14/2008 04:49:28 PM · #23
Originally posted by LydiaToo:
Why do these un-compassionate people automatically deserve compassion? I think that if the punishment for a crime were for the violent criminal to be subjected to the same treatment his victim was subjected to, there would be a great decrease in the number of folks in prison that we'd have to support. For one, there would be less crime, and for another some criminals would have been tortured and killed in the same manner they tortured and killed their victims.

I think it should be mandatory for pre-meditated, violent crimes.

I'm sure folks think I'm a bit harsh to be saying that...

Would you be supportive of the penalties enacted under Sharia law (Hudud / Qisas)?

Message edited by author 2008-12-14 16:52:06.
 12/14/2008 06:47:48 PM · #24
If I was a smart man, I would put this on Ignore and never think about it again...

I should also be careful not to put my opinion of crime in front of respect or to fall into the same traps others do.

Crime is probably one of my top emotional topics, others being mental disease, and homelessness.

I've tried explaining my position before, it, hasn't gotten me anywhere. Maybe I'm too emotionally charged to explain myself clearly, maybe my communication skills are too poor.

But anyway, I want to explain myself, I feel if I can, that I will change peoples opinions. This I realize is rude, since it assumes my view is right and all others are wrong. Not exactly a good way to gain support. :)

Why should anyone listen to me at all in that case?

How do you even go about relating something so contrary to most peoples views to not only seem completely foreign but also completely insane? Like two completely different cultures each with different language.

Have you ever in your life, been so certain of something, that no one and nothing could hope to shake that certainty? That you were absolutely correct?

Imagine a group of people approach you, they begin to ridicule and insult you, call you a bad person, say obscene things to you or about those you love. Now imagine that they say, you are wrong, and should change what you are doing or what you are thinking.

Would you listen to them? Would you change what you were so certain of a moment before? What if it was a mob of people saying your photography was worthless and would always be worthless so not to bother. Would you find their words objectionable?

Now imagine instead of this group insulting you. That instead, they were close friends of yours. People you respected. And they all agreed that photography wasn't your thing. Would you be more inclined to believe them?

What I am trying to drive at is this. I honestly believe criminals feel like that, they have everyone telling them to act in a certain way, but provide them no reason, other than threats of jail or violence. The criminals very well might believe they are justified because they do not respect these people.

Those of you, who would condemn criminals, how often do yourself desire to commit crimes or to murder those around you? Then why is it always assumed criminals face the same choice, of being good, or being bad and choose bad? Maybe like you can only accept doing the right thing, they can only accept doing the wrong thing.

If I were to tell any of you, go out and murder someone, maybe someone in your own family would you? Would it be tempting and make your mouth water? I doubt so, the thought is probably appalling to you. But but I SAID DO IT, what if I get some friends, a whole group and we all tell you to murder someone in your family, surely you will do it then, no? But... we said to do so.

It doesn't matter what I say, you believe it is the wrong thing to do, you won't listen to me. You might not even be able to imagine doing what I asked.

Now, lets say I ask you to kill a stranger, not a family member, would you? Still probably not, it is wrong after all. But you don't know that person, you do know me, at least from this website, and I say do it! Probably still wouldn't work, your belief it is wrong outweighs anything I could say.

Now imagine, this person, is a criminal, in a bank, he has a knife and is randomly beating his hostages, but he haven't seen you come out of the bathroom, the staff are either unconscious or dead and have not triggered the alarm, no police will be coming, you have a gun on you, you can stop this man and the harm he is causing now.

Do you feel you might be more likely to react then? What if one of the victims being beaten was a family member, maybe a child or parent.

The point is, in both cases the man is a stranger, until substantial proof is given to you that the person deserves or needs to die, you will not consider killing them and even then with a degree of distress.

No one managed to force you to change your beliefs nor morals. I tried, but didn't succeed. It wasn't until witnessing the crime in progress that your beliefs could even be bent for a moment. And still then, it had to be you, who made the choice that in this case you needed to act differently.

In the end, everything is like that. Take a building inspector. One day a lady bursts into his office. She claims the new building on 5th and Main is unsafe. The inspector asks what proof she has of this. At this point he does not believe her, he has nothing to base any trust in her investigative abilities nor her honesty.

He says the building was just built and inspected by himself, he knows it is safe. The next day she returns and he asks her to leave, she presents a chunk of concrete and claims it fell from a support. The inspector looks at it and decides it is a new chunk and might be from the building but he still does not fully trust her.

He asks her to meet him there the following day and point out where this came from and any other proof she saw that the building was unsafe. She points out a cracked support and a spot where a guide wire has snapped.

The inspector now believes that the building might indeed be unsafe. He does not order it to be torn down however, instead he and his assistants perform tests to decide if the building is actually unsafe and to which degree. He finds the concrete used was improperly mixed and that the whole building is unsafe and orders it to be demolished.

The point being that until shown proof, he would not believe her. He had to see it with his own eyes.

I will assume my assumptions in your choices are correct up to this point. Obviously the serial killers among us will disagree with what I have said so far. ;)

Why should a person follow the law? The law is made by man. A group of strangers. They offer no proof that this law should or needs to be followed. A person could look at this law, and these people, and decide they are a bunch of whack jobs. For certain laws, you can make an argument that is provable, such as running a red light being dangerous.

Most people stop at red lights, because they agree it is the right thing to do, even without a law, the majority of people would stop at the red light. Many people speed, especially on uncrowded or empty straight roads. They are breaking the law but do not care because to them the law is stupid or shouldn't apply to them, or this road. Then take Stan for example, he learned this year that he will not be getting a bonus, not to any fault of his own but because his boss is taking an extra vacation and buying a new yacht. However Stan is in charge of accounting for the business and decides to skim a little money off the top, not a lot, but what his bonus was last year. To him he is justified to take the money, his boss is an asshole and cheated him, maybe his family was counting on that money. It doesn't make it right, or legal, but he believes differently.

I believe criminals often believe differently, regardless of the degree of their crime, they feel justified, they believe they are right, they have their reasons. And no one can change their mind on it. They just see things differently, wrong, sometimes horribly tragically wrong, but still a difference in perspective.

So why should they be shown any compassion? For the same reason you would want to be shown compassion and the right to hold your own beliefs. Imagine being kidnapped by a gang of men, terrorists, being stripped of your clothing and dressed in rags, then locked in cage, you are told if you are lucky you might just get raped a few times and let go, a man in a cage next to you says they are going to kill you but there is nothing you can do about it. All the while thugs with AK-47s pace back and forth in front of the cages occasionally hitting the cage just to watch you jump. He tells you that if you are smart you won't cause any trouble. At midday you are pulled from your cage and escorted to a small stank smelling room and left there. An hour later a large man walks in and he beings to feel you up, you try to push you off and he punches you in the stomach and then as you lay there he kicks you in the ribs. Then he rapes you, repetitively for what seems like days. You finally pass out and wake in your cage, you hurt everywhere. The guy next to you relates and says it doesn't happen that often, and tells you it is better not to fight back. That evening a can of dog food is dumped into your cage, it is obvious this is your supper. You gag at the thought and try to go to sleep. Not even an hour sleeping and there is a noise, you snap awake as you are pulled from your cage and beaten with the butt of a rifle. You are dragged to the room and thrown inside. It is freezing now and you can't stop shaking, you are starving, and so tired you feel like dying but you won't let yourself fall asleep. You don't want to be caught off guard. You eventually collapse from tiredness. The knock in the head from a boot wakes you, everything is a blur, you can barely make out someone dragging you somewhere, then the sound of the cage door. You pass out again. You wake a few hours later to the sound of guns firing into the air as the terrorists laugh at everyone's fright. You survived the night, barely.

This continues, day, after, day, for years. Until you accept the dog food with a blank expression and eat it without tasting anything, and walk yourself to the room when it is time. You've given up any hope of being rescued. You don't even want to be rescued, what is the point, this is life now.

Then one day, many years later, you are driven by jeep to the edge of a river and kicked out. Your are told you are free now, go home. You crawl along the river for days until you are discovered and rescued. You learn that your parents have died years ago while you are being held hostage. You don't care though, nothing seems real. You just want to wake up in your cage again. You are given years of rehab, and eventually your head is cleared of what had happened enough to feel again, and it is crushing, everything you went through, everything you lost, never seeing your parents again. But more importantly, family, and old friends, treat you differently now, they walk on eggshells not wanting to say the wrong thing. They can't relate to where you have been or what you have gone through, no one can. You realize that things can never be the same again, your life as it was ended the day you were kidnapped. You swallow a bottle of pain medication and begin to seize before passing out. Eventually your breathing stops, and then your heart. You have found peace from your private hell at last.

This is not unlike the lives millions of people spend every day behind prison walls. Even in America. They are pulled from their lives for making the wrong choices. Choices which seemed fair to them, justified. They are pulled from their families even in the middle of the night. They are stripped of their clothing in front of other inmates, given a number, and a jumpsuit to wear. Many inmates are assaulted their first day in prison and often lose their first meal. They cease to be human, like dogs locked in cages.

In America, prisons are overloaded to the point prisoners take shifts at sleeping on the floors of hallways with only blankets for padding. They are fed processed food made from pork scraps not unlike what goes into animal feed. They face the daily threat of rape and murder. They are stripped of any and all privacy and become a show to anyone who wants to watch. In some prisons in America prisoners take shifts being awake to guard fellow sleeping prisoners from attacks in the night from rival prisoners or gangs. All sleep with their shoes on in case they need to run. This was from a documentary this year on the Discovery channel. A guard said from his catwalk that if a fight broke out, someone would end up dead before they had a chance to intervene and that the inmates developed their own system in order to survive. He said it sucked but there is nothing that can be done. Commonly prisons are self policed by inmates, the guards overwhelmed to the point of having to rely on prisoners to set rules of conduct. Gangs are common and not belonging to one usually means a quick death. There is a constant pecking order where longer harder prisoners decide what they want and take it from others, including meals, clothing, bedding, personal items. Again from the documentary in the background of one pieces of footage you see a large bulky prisoner, he walks up to another and takes a baseball cap he was wearing and his lunch. The camera pans over to a close by inmate and he says, "Yeah, he is basically in charge, he takes what he wants, you learn to live with it, its just how the system works here. Someday, if I'm hard enough I might get to where he is and not take BEEP from anyone. Everyone hopes for that, it keeps you going, it's all you can do, you know?"

Some prisons are improving in terms of safety but they are few and far between. Most prisons still treat inmates as animals or worse garbage. One guard said "It gets to you, you know. I... I became a guard because I thought I was going to be helping people get back on track. The truth is, this is just a warehouse. A warehouse for people. People get discarded here. Society doesn't want them, sometimes their families don't even want them."

Often in prison, after years and years, of the majority that survive with their life, they are thrust back into the world from which they came. However their children have grown, their parents may be dead. Most friends will have moved on. No one trusts them any longer. They find it near impossible to find work or to support themselves. Often the only choices are suicide or getting arrested again, the second time around is actually easier, because everyone around them treats them like trash.

"See that guy over there, right there yeah him. He is called a lifer. Naw, he isn't on the row. It means he lives here, in the prison, this is his home. When he gets out he will be back again. He means something here, see those guys? Those are like his home boys. He has the start of a gang, he has power here. Something he will never get out there. The most times you get arrested the more respect you get. You see this is life, this is the only life some of these guys remember, you gotta respect it, if you run from it you are disrespecting their life, disrespecting them. So you come back. It gets you respect."

So I feel a great deal of compassion for these people. They are people, even the ones who murder their whole families. They are people and will always be people to me. They may be in gross conflict with society and a threat. They may have shown no compassion to anyone in their lives. But I will show them compassion, for many have never known it, either in reality or because of difference of opinion. For every crime, my heart hurts twice, once for the victims, and once again for the criminals responsible.

Sorry, I guess I've really lost it this time.

Message edited by author 2008-12-14 18:48:04.
 12/14/2008 07:13:37 PM · #25
I'll flag this for later reading of the togtog manifesto. ;-)
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