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04/11/2009 09:41:25 AM · #201 |
Originally posted by Sheryll:
You have rated 147 of 328 images (45%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 147 of 328 images (45%) in this challenge.
It's easy to hit the numbers and vote but thinking about what to say makes you really evaluate the score you give. And that takes some time. Not even halfway yet but I have to keep taking breaks or I don't think I'd be as constructive. I hope I'm being helpful at least for some. |
I got your comment sometime between last night and this AM...you left a very good comment...thank you so very much...and I agree with you...you do have to take more time to evaluate your opinion when you have to put it into words and therefore you tend to score higher (at least I do) because then I am evaluating only that picture and it's qualities....one....at....a...time... |
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04/11/2009 09:53:07 AM · #202 |
| I'm in the 5's! Now that I've said it, I will be back in the 4's before the end of today. |
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04/11/2009 01:51:07 PM · #203 |
Textures VI
Votes: 140
Views: 191
Avg Vote: 5.5643
Comments: 7
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 04/11/09 01:10 pm |
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04/11/2009 01:54:02 PM · #204 |
Expect to float around here for the rest of the challenge.
Votes: 132
Views: 180
Avg Vote: 5.5076
Comments: 4 |
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04/11/2009 02:11:36 PM · #205 |
Votes: 140
Views: 196
Avg Vote: 5.5286
Comments: 7
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 04/11/09 02:09 pm
I agree I think this is about where it will stay...down to a trickle of voting, since last night at 10:42 there have only been about 15 votes... |
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04/11/2009 03:10:55 PM · #206 |
| I want to raise an issue and as it has come to the fore in the last little while (couple of hours) and you are all discussing scores, I thought now would be a good time, I have noticed that pretty good pictures, ones that generally people are scoring 5,6 and 7 suddenly get a 2. These pictures fill the challenge criteria, are well focussed, well lit and well processed. Why would someone give them a 2? Just on technical merit, whether you like the subject matter or not, they warrant a better score than that, the only result is to reduce the participants' score. I believe it should be mandatory to leave a comment if you score below a 3. |
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04/11/2009 03:22:22 PM · #207 |
Originally posted by steve100:
I want to raise an issue and as it has come to the fore in the last little while (couple of hours) and you are all discussing scores, I thought now would be a good time, I have noticed that pretty good pictures, ones that generally people are scoring 5,6 and 7 suddenly get a 2. These pictures fill the challenge criteria, are well focussed, well lit and well processed. Why would someone give them a 2? Just on technical merit, whether you like the subject matter or not, they warrant a better score than that, the only result is to reduce the participants' score. I believe it should be mandatory to leave a comment if you score below a 3. |
there have been a number of threads that discuss this very issue. The important piece of information I took from them was that there are some people that only give, on average, scores in the 3s. So if they're thinking that an average photo on here deserves a 3, their 2s make a lot more sense.
The ones I don't understand are the 1s. When a perfectly fine photograph that is getting an average in the high 5s gets scored a 1, I can't see that as anything but being mean. Are you going to score a good photo the same as a technically bad, DNMC photo? At least with a 2, there's something further down for rating bad photos. So the upshot is, I can live with a 2, a 1 will never make sense. |
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04/11/2009 03:22:51 PM · #208 |
| Mine has gone up for awhile. I'm only about .05 down from my overall average. |
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04/11/2009 03:28:12 PM · #209 |
Originally posted by steve100:
ones that generally people are scoring 5,6 and 7 suddenly get a 2. These pictures fill the challenge criteria, are well focussed, well lit and well processed. Why would someone give them a 2? Just on technical merit, whether you like the subject matter or not, they warrant a better score than that, the only result is to reduce the participants' score. |
Lots of reasons.
-Some people vote on a scale of don't like<-->like, rather than bad<-->good.. The difference may be subtle, but there is one.
-I know one member (though there are certainly more) that will give a default low vote to anything that does not immediately speak to him. His own high votes are usually given on low to mid scoring entries that appeal to his own artistic tastes.
-Some interpretations of the challenge may be different from your own, and no matter how good, receive a low vote for not meeting the challenge topic. This is a personal interpretation, and sometimes there is a lot of debate on what fits the topic.
Those are just a few reasons that I have gotten from some past discussions. Even the best challenge winners will get some low votes, and the last place entries will usually get a couple of high one. Just shows that everyone has different tastes and criteria. My own belief is that most images that hit the 5.5 mark are then battling more against the broad appeal factor than creating a good shot.
Originally posted by steve100:
I believe it should be mandatory to leave a comment if you score below a 3. |
There used to be a nag box that popped up anytime you left a 3 or less, suggesting it would be courteous to leave a comment explaining. They got rid of it about a year ago. The problem with mandatory comments is that either you will get useless comments or it will artificially increase the scores, because people will just leave a 4 instead of a 3 with a comment. It's actually a dead-horse topic in the forums, I'm afraid. |
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04/11/2009 04:21:56 PM · #210 |
| Do you think these people are not aware that by scoring so low they can drop anothers score by almost half a point? Personally I believe the voting is tactical. |
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04/11/2009 04:44:20 PM · #211 |
Votes: 126
Views: 181
Avg Vote: 4.7381
Comments: 2
ughhh |
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04/11/2009 04:55:22 PM · #212 |
Originally posted by lyn100:
Do you think these people are not aware that by scoring so low they can drop anothers score by almost half a point? Personally I believe the voting is tactical. |
I don't really believe that tactical voting goes on, though there may be some people that give a score based on how their own is doing and if they feel yours is better or worse than theirs.
More often, I think the low voter either genuinely feels it deserves the low vote, or the low vote is their average, in order to leave more room at the top to properly reward the ones they do like. And it does not matter that their low vote deflates your score. It not an issue. If your current masterpiece is felt to be of no consequence, it will get the low vote. On the other hand, when you impress one of these folks, it's like coming in with the ribbon. |
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04/11/2009 05:55:23 PM · #213 |
Votes: 145
Views: 191
Avg Vote: 5.3172
Comments: 5
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
This one won't make my profile page, but I didn't have very high hopes for it. So, it's all good.
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04/11/2009 05:57:57 PM · #214 |
| Ok! teafran's comment was well worth waiting for. thanks! |
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04/11/2009 08:01:52 PM · #215 |
Originally posted by steve100:
I want to raise an issue and as it has come to the fore in the last little while (couple of hours) and you are all discussing scores, I thought now would be a good time, I have noticed that pretty good pictures, ones that generally people are scoring 5,6 and 7 suddenly get a 2. These pictures fill the challenge criteria, are well focussed, well lit and well processed. Why would someone give them a 2? Just on technical merit, whether you like the subject matter or not, they warrant a better score than that, the only result is to reduce the participants' score. I believe it should be mandatory to leave a comment if you score below a 3. |
I wonder about this too but it's been brought up before and, after listening to the responses, I have decided that these people either don't know much about photography and therefore have no way of judging whether the image is technically decent or not or they are groupies and give ones and twos to every image they don't recognize. Either way, the comment would be more annoying for them then it would be useful for us. I really don't think there's much anyone can do about it. The scoring goes from 1 to 10 and we have to accept that people will use the full range. Most of us who work hard know that it's hurtful not to be recognized as average or better just for producing good images (on topic, well exposed, etc.) and will treat others the way they want to be treated, but this is a very large group of people and it takes all kinds.
I have thought that maybe, in lieu of a comment, a scoring system that would break down what an image says to a voter might be an interesting idea. (ie: rather than just one number, how about rating Technical merit, Topical merit, and Do you like the photo?) But that's a lot to do when there are 500+ entries to vote for in a free study challenge, for example. |
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04/11/2009 08:14:22 PM · #216 |
| It's a lot of work to give well thought out feedback on that many entries. I try to focus my feedback on the 4 and 5 votes, and I feel bad if I leave a low vote without some explanation of why the entry did not appeal to me. I also feel bad when leaving that explanation, because everyone likes to believe they have entered a killer shot this time. |
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04/11/2009 08:30:38 PM · #217 |
| Thank you teafran for your comment! It was very nice to hear your compliments, especially on my first entry! |
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04/11/2009 10:26:18 PM · #218 |
Originally posted by Shaka:
aaaaaaand go! |
Challenge: Textures VI (Apr. 1st 2009 - Apr. 7th 2009)
Rules: Basic Editing
Submissions: 328
Voting Deadline: Apr. 14th 2009
Details: N/A
Stats: You have rated 327 of 328 images (100%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 327 images (100%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 7.3028.
Whew - that was a tough one - so many terrific images and some simply out standing entries - that was really tough.
I have some thoughts about scoring I'd like to share, but at the moment, I supposed to be on vacation. :>) Fortunately, Mrs. Teafran and the DIL are out bar hopping shopping so I got a chance to finish this up tonight.
Good job everyone who contributed to the challenge - some very provocative entries and some really interesting entries - and several have one hell of a sense of humor.
Later,
Tom |
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04/11/2009 10:36:21 PM · #219 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by steve100:
I want to raise an issue and as it has come to the fore in the last little while (couple of hours) and you are all discussing scores, I thought now would be a good time, I have noticed that pretty good pictures, ones that generally people are scoring 5,6 and 7 suddenly get a 2. These pictures fill the challenge criteria, are well focussed, well lit and well processed. Why would someone give them a 2? Just on technical merit, whether you like the subject matter or not, they warrant a better score than that, the only result is to reduce the participants' score. I believe it should be mandatory to leave a comment if you score below a 3. |
I wonder about this too but it's been brought up before and, after listening to the responses, I have decided that these people either don't know much about photography and therefore have no way of judging whether the image is technically decent or not or they are groupies and give ones and twos to every image they don't recognize. Either way, the comment would be more annoying for them then it would be useful for us. I really don't think there's much anyone can do about it. The scoring goes from 1 to 10 and we have to accept that people will use the full range. Most of us who work hard know that it's hurtful not to be recognized as average or better just for producing good images (on topic, well exposed, etc.) and will treat others the way they want to be treated, but this is a very large group of people and it takes all kinds.
I have thought that maybe, in lieu of a comment, a scoring system that would break down what an image says to a voter might be an interesting idea. (ie: rather than just one number, how about rating Technical merit, Topical merit, and Do you like the photo?) But that's a lot to do when there are 500+ entries to vote for in a free study challenge, for example. |
Well, here's my take on the issue.
1 through 10 is too broad a scoring table. What I do in a one to ten system is automatically give 4 points just for entering - the author should have some credit for stepping up and entering. I start at 5 which is the lowest I'll give in most cases unless the submission is so outside normal parameters that it loses all context. 5 is generally, not always, a submission that meets the criteria but lack any substantive artistic or technical merit. A 6 is an image that has some technical or artistic merit, but falls short of being stellar in either category. A 7 is a clearly above average technical effort, but has little or no artistic merit. An 8 is artistically above average and has a solid technical component that rates it above the average. A 9 is an extention of an 8, only with much better impact both technically and artistically. A 10 would be the ultimate perfect image with respect to the challenge subject.
There are variations within that system, but that's the way it works for me.
Later,
Tom
PS: Two reasons I don't like the one through ten system - the first being that the average mean will always take precedence over the system - it never fails that the average will be the average. Secondly, it's way too easy to game the system with one through ten scoring. And there will be a certain amount of unintentional self "assistance" using that kind of scale given the number of entries - it's just human nature and along with the boo birds who don't like anything, the natural swing to average is always going to be the more natural score.
Later,
Tom
Message edited by author 2009-04-11 22:40:30. |
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04/11/2009 10:43:51 PM · #220 |
Originally posted by VitaminB:
Originally posted by Teafran:
Wow - good job. I'm just about halfway through at this point. I'll have to finish this a little at a time as I'm heading out on vacation in another couple of hours, but I've got a few more days.
Later,
Tom |
Tom, I just got your comment, and wanted to express my appreciation for one of the most thought out, and complimentary comments I have received in a while. A sincere thank you. :) |
Oh gee - that must have been the one I screwed up. :>)
Well deserved I'm sure - there was a lot of really great imagery in this challenge - it's unfortunate that all the higher rated images weren't able to win.
Later,
Tom |
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04/11/2009 11:01:38 PM · #221 |
Votes: 141
Views: 177
Avg Vote: 4.5106
Comments: 3
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 04/11/09 11:00 pm
and thank you for the comments on my pic.... they are well appreciated..... |
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04/12/2009 01:35:24 AM · #222 |
Textures VI
Votes: 148
Views: 202
Avg Vote: 5.5946
Comments: 7
Favorites: 0
Wish Lists: 0
Updated: 04/12/09 01:10 am
slow raise. Hoping for more technical comments so I can learn more. |
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04/12/2009 01:37:02 AM · #223 |
Votes: 137
Views: 180
Avg Vote: 5.3212
Entering into the voting quagmire, before opening a pix, its a 5. It depends if it is above or below average and how far it is what I vote.
I do think there are voters that give out low votes to make themsleves look better as well as voters who are sticklers for the DNMC vote that have no imagination. I personally, if I don't relate the pix to the challenge will look how the title relates, others don't give a second thought to the title. I for one think the challenge, the title and the photo are completely tied together. That is how I think up a photo for a challenge. But this is a democratic site and everyone's vote means what that voter wants it to mean.
BTW
My voting started out at the 4.6 range at the start and has steadily climbed. Need more time!!! |
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04/12/2009 01:50:32 AM · #224 |
I tend to start with 5 as an average and then move up or down from there. It seems, for me, to be the most logical way to vote. I also agree that the title is important, it can give you a sense of what the participant wanted to acheive, even if you don't see it at first glance. It is difficult as some pictures are technically very good but don't really meet the challenge criteria, some are the reverse, but this should be weighed up in a sensible manner.Most of you guys have been here much longer than I so I guess you know more about it than I do, and you've said it has been raised before. Still I had to ask.
I have an entry in this challenge and I have had some very nice comments, constructive, about my not so brilliant entry. Thankyou. |
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04/12/2009 01:54:27 AM · #225 |
Seems to be sticking above my happy point.
Votes: 140
Views: 190
Avg Vote: 5.5500
Comments: 5
And I did some of my own damage this evening, averaging better than my own.
You have rated 87 of 328 images (27%) in this challenge.
You have commented on 19 images (6%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 5.8161. |
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