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05/13/2004 07:34:40 AM · #276 |
Originally posted by orussell:
I guess what he's saying, in his sagely manner, is kill them all. |
I'll assume your saying this about me, so all I have to say is:
Are you a ******* ****** (edited for poor taste)? Are you comletely unable to read or comprehend anything? Do you skip over my posts and make it up or do you read only every third word? Your the kind of person that gives Liberal a bad definition, thank you!
Message edited by author 2004-05-13 07:50:34.
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05/13/2004 07:57:41 AM · #277 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by achiral:
we bombed the living crap out of dresden in ww2 and they're an ally to us now. go figure, huh? history is not on the side of leniency to the enemy |
Are you forgetting a little detail like the Marshall Plan ... I do think our rebuiling Germany into a top-flight economy has a little something to do with their latter-day friendship with us.
BTW: you can add the firebombing of Dresden to the list of atrocities commmitted by the USA/Allies ... not only was the goal the destruction of the entire civilian infrastructure and terrorizing or extermination of the (civilian) populace, but the wanton destruction of historical buildings and artwork (none of which had any strategic military importance) constitutes a "crime against humanity" all by itself. |
yeah so was germany's carpetbombing of london before dresden. oh and germany's killing of 6 million civilians. you consider war an atrocity, i don't.
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05/13/2004 09:21:19 AM · #278 |
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by achiral:
we bombed the living crap out of dresden in ww2 and they're an ally to us now. go figure, huh? history is not on the side of leniency to the enemy |
Are you forgetting a little detail like the Marshall Plan ... I do think our rebuiling Germany into a top-flight economy has a little something to do with their latter-day friendship with us.
BTW: you can add the firebombing of Dresden to the list of atrocities commmitted by the USA/Allies ... not only was the goal the destruction of the entire civilian infrastructure and terrorizing or extermination of the (civilian) populace, but the wanton destruction of historical buildings and artwork (none of which had any strategic military importance) constitutes a "crime against humanity" all by itself. |
yeah so was germany's carpetbombing of london before dresden. oh and germany's killing of 6 million civilians. you consider war an atrocity, i don't. |
So I guess the Germans found that it doesn't matter what you do to the enemy either?
If one group of people organizing to kill another group of people, because they don't like them or want what they have, ISN'T an atrocity, well, it's hard to think what is.
Even as a "pacifist," if a school bully hit you, I would grant you the right to defend yourself. Following him home and beating up his sisters would be going "too far ..." |
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05/13/2004 09:25:09 AM · #279 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Even as a "pacifist," if a school bully hit you, I would grant you the right to defend yourself. Following him home and beating up his sisters would be going "too far ..." |
I try not to get involved on either side of this argument, but that is one of the wisest things I have heard to date on this website or any other. Well said, GeneralE!
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05/13/2004 10:11:10 AM · #280 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Even as a "pacifist," if a school bully hit you, I would grant you the right to defend yourself. Following him home and beating up his sisters would be going "too far ..." |
I try not to get involved on either side of this argument, but that is one of the wisest things I have heard to date on this website or any other. Well said, GeneralE! |
too bad thats not the scenario were dealing with in the middle east. I hope your not making an analigy to 9/11...
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05/13/2004 10:18:27 AM · #281 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
too bad thats not the scenario were dealing with in the middle east. I hope your not making an analigy to 9/11... |
No, no analogies to anything. I just liked the quote. It can apply to a lot of things. I am not on one side or the other, I just liked the way that statement was worded. Nothing more. Have a great day! :o)
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05/13/2004 10:44:25 AM · #282 |
You don't consider war an atrocity???@!!!
Would you explain this to me please.
Why aren't you in Iraq helping to defend "freedom and democracy?"
Btw...I posted some web sites about the Christian right and haven't heard a peep out of you about it. Silence here must be acceptance and acquiencence.
Originally posted by achiral:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by achiral:
we bombed the living crap out of dresden in ww2 and they're an ally to us now. go figure, huh? history is not on the side of leniency to the enemy |
Are you forgetting a little detail like the Marshall Plan ... I do think our rebuiling Germany into a top-flight economy has a little something to do with their latter-day friendship with us.
BTW: you can add the firebombing of Dresden to the list of atrocities commmitted by the USA/Allies ... not only was the goal the destruction of the entire civilian infrastructure and terrorizing or extermination of the (civilian) populace, but the wanton destruction of historical buildings and artwork (none of which had any strategic military importance) constitutes a "crime against humanity" all by itself. |
yeah so was germany's carpetbombing of london before dresden. oh and germany's killing of 6 million civilians. you consider war an atrocity, i don't. |
Message edited by author 2004-05-13 10:46:10. |
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05/13/2004 10:59:13 AM · #283 |
Originally posted by laurielblack:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Even as a "pacifist," if a school bully hit you, I would grant you the right to defend yourself. Following him home and beating up his sisters would be going "too far ..." |
I try not to get involved on either side of this argument, but that is one of the wisest things I have heard to date on this website or any other. Well said, GeneralE! |
I concur.
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05/13/2004 11:21:32 AM · #284 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Btw...I posted some web sites about the Christian right and haven't heard a peep out of you about it. Silence here must be acceptance and acquiencence. |
I read the article you posted the link to, and it makes me wonder what point you are trying to make by linking to it.
The article SAYS that the site is NOT "about religion, nor about Christianity, nor about Republicans" but then goes on to say "This site is about how a small group of Republican strategists targeted a religious constituency to expand the base of their party, and how a small group of religious extremists targeted the Republican Party to bring the United States government under religious control." ( emphasis mine ).
The article says: "Since the Religious Right began to dominate the Republican Party, and the Republican Party won majorities in both Houses of the U.S. Congress, the influence of the Religious Right has become immense."
My question is, "What's wrong with that?".
That, my friend, is how our Democratic Republic works. If you get enough people to agree with your values, you, as a group, can use your right to vote to elect representatives to promote those values in the Congress. For YEARS, the anti-religious left had control of the Congress, and they want to have control again, don't they? But I don't hear you arguing against THEM. So, it would appear that you do, indeed, have an anti-Christian bias, otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned about their ability, as a majority of voters, to have the power to elect those who agree with their values.
Ron |
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05/13/2004 12:00:21 PM · #285 |
First off, the left are not anti religion, or anti Christian. They are pro "the people" in general...the hard working people of this country.
Secondly, thank you for posting those quotes about it not being about religion or Christianity and it being about a SMALL group of people taking over government through religion.
Key word here is "small" and the real question is if their tactics really represent the true democratic, community and family values that they purport to embody. Have you read the article by Greg Palast about Pat Robertson? There seems to be a lot of illegal activity that is being done by some of these christian right groups.
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Btw...I posted some web sites about the Christian right and haven't heard a peep out of you about it. Silence here must be acceptance and acquiencence. |
I read the article you posted the link to, and it makes me wonder what point you are trying to make by linking to it.
The article SAYS that the site is NOT "about religion, nor about Christianity, nor about Republicans" but then goes on to say "This site is about how a small group of Republican strategists targeted a religious constituency to expand the base of their party, and how a small group of religious extremists targeted the Republican Party to bring the United States government under religious control." ( emphasis mine ).
The article says: "Since the Religious Right began to dominate the Republican Party, and the Republican Party won majorities in both Houses of the U.S. Congress, the influence of the Religious Right has become immense."
My question is, "What's wrong with that?".
That, my friend, is how our Democratic Republic works. If you get enough people to agree with your values, you, as a group, can use your right to vote to elect representatives to promote those values in the Congress. For YEARS, the anti-religious left had control of the Congress, and they want to have control again, don't they? But I don't hear you arguing against THEM. So, it would appear that you do, indeed, have an anti-Christian bias, otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned about their ability, as a majority of voters, to have the power to elect those who agree with their values.
Ron |
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05/13/2004 12:06:44 PM · #286 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
First off, the left are not anti religion, or anti Christian. They are pro "the people" in general...the hard working people of this country. |
So, are you ( or the left ) implying that Christians, or those who agree with the values of the "Christian Right", are NOT people, or are not "hard working people of this country"?
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Secondly, thank you for posting those quotes about it not being about religion or Christianity and it being about a SMALL group of people taking over government through religion.
Key word here is "small" and the real question is if their tactics really represent the true democratic, community and family values that they purport to embody. |
Please explain to me how a "small" group of people can take over government through religion. I thought that our government was set up to be a "one man, one vote" form of government, meaning that the MAJORITY of voters elected representatives. So, the only way a "small" group of people can take over government is if the "large" group fails to vote.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Have you read the article by Greg Palast about Pat Robertson? There seems to be a lot of illegal activity that is being done by some of these christian right groups. |
No, I haven't. Perhaps I missed your post with a link. I'll go back to see if I can find it.
Ron
Update: OK. I did miss that post, but found it and read the articles ( though I had to edit the url of the second link since it was incorrect ).
First, let me say that Pat Robertson is only one man - hence, he get's only one vote. Second, if HE and/or some of his advisors/cohorts has done anything illegal, it is HE and/or his advisors/cohorts that are guilty, not the "Christian Coalition" or the "Christian Right". It is unfair to generalize about the entire Christian Right because of the actions of one or two people. Third, I repeat, if you fear that the Christian Right is attempting to "theocratize" the country, then you had better mobilize the opposition. Because the only way that your fears will come true, is if the Christian Right can mobilize more voters than their opponents.
Ron
Message edited by author 2004-05-13 12:29:46. |
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05/13/2004 12:45:43 PM · #287 |
Bingo!
Ron, you are a very smart man. Yes, that's one of the points of one of the web sites I posted of how a small group can start to take over the gov't.
Certainly Pat Robertson is one , but there seems to be concern by others that the CR is trying to theocratize the country. My problem with this, and probably others in the left in general, is that it's another instance in this country, where a small group of people are trying to take over the machinery of our democracy. That's the danger in it.
I think that christian people in general are a wonderful people who are ethical, hard working and community minded. I am referring to the small group of exploiters who are the leaders in the CC and other RW religious groups, as well as, our govt.
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
First off, the left are not anti religion, or anti Christian. They are pro "the people" in general...the hard working people of this country. |
So, are you ( or the left ) implying that Christians, or those who agree with the values of the "Christian Right", are NOT people, or are not "hard working people of this country"?
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Secondly, thank you for posting those quotes about it not being about religion or Christianity and it being about a SMALL group of people taking over government through religion.
Key word here is "small" and the real question is if their tactics really represent the true democratic, community and family values that they purport to embody. |
Please explain to me how a "small" group of people can take over government through religion. I thought that our government was set up to be a "one man, one vote" form of government, meaning that the MAJORITY of voters elected representatives. So, the only way a "small" group of people can take over government is if the "large" group fails to vote.
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Have you read the article by Greg Palast about Pat Robertson? There seems to be a lot of illegal activity that is being done by some of these christian right groups. |
No, I haven't. Perhaps I missed your post with a link. I'll go back to see if I can find it.
Ron
Update: OK. I did miss that post, but found it and read the articles ( though I had to edit the url of the second link since it was incorrect ).
First, let me say that Pat Robertson is only one man - hence, he get's only one vote. Second, if HE and/or some of his advisors/cohorts has done anything illegal, it is HE and/or his advisors/cohorts that are guilty, not the "Christian Coalition" or the "Christian Right". It is unfair to generalize about the entire Christian Right because of the actions of one or two people. Third, I repeat, if you fear that the Christian Right is attempting to "theocratize" the country, then you had better mobilize the opposition. Because the only way that your fears will come true, is if the Christian Right can mobilize more voters than their opponents.
Ron |
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05/13/2004 01:34:45 PM · #288 |
| Another very interesting article about the religious right. Read it all the way through. |
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05/13/2004 01:42:08 PM · #289 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Bingo!
Ron, you are a very smart man. Yes, that's one of the points of one of the web sites I posted of how a small group can start to take over the gov't.
Certainly Pat Robertson is one , but there seems to be concern by others that the CR is trying to theocratize the country. My problem with this, and probably others in the left in general, is that it's another instance in this country, where a small group of people are trying to take over the machinery of our democracy. That's the danger in it.
I think that christian people in general are a wonderful people who are ethical, hard working and community minded. I am referring to the small group of exploiters who are the leaders in the CC and other RW religious groups, as well as, our govt. |
Hmmm. If you hold the German people, in general, as being at least partially responsible for the holocaust, since they did not prevent Hitler's Party from coming to power, then you must hold those who are NOT members of the Christian Right ( they being in the majority according to you ) equally responsible if the CR does succeed in "taking control" of the government. And if the CR does take control, then it must mean that the message of the left is not very persuasive.
I will hold the Democratic Party and its constituents accountable if Kerry does NOT get elected as President. And, of course, will hold the Republican Party and its constituents accountable if he DOES get elected. Because it means that the losing party did not provide enough of an incentive to get supportive voters to the voting booth.
Ron |
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05/13/2004 01:57:23 PM · #290 |
Famous quotes, many pertain to these conversations.
"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'"
-from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.
"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."--Pat Robertson, 1993 interview with Molly Ivins
"I think 'one man, one vote,' just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 3/18/92
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians." -- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992
(talking about Planned Parenthood) "It is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism-everything that the Bible condemns."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 4/9/91
"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/8/92
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
George Bush Senior, during a conservative fundraiser
here are some sound bytes from jerry falwell and pat robertson
one of them is the clip from this quote:
"I really believe that the pagans, the abortionists, the feminists, and the gays, and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who tried to secularize America --- I point the finger in their face and say 'You helped this happen'."
Jerry Falwell
700 Club (Morning Edition), September 13, 2001
(on who is to blame for the September 11th terrorist attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon)
while im at it w/ the quotes i thought id add a few from some others:
"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
"The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them."
Mark Twain
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future."
Benjamin DisraeliBritish Leader
and one of my favorite religious quotes:
"For me, the different religions are beautiful flowers from the same garden, or they are branches of the same majestic tree. Therefore, they are equally true, though being received and interpreted through human instruments equally imperfect."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein
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05/13/2004 02:00:35 PM · #291 |
and i think this one:
"For me, the different religions are beautiful flowers from the same garden, or they are branches of the same majestic tree. Therefore, they are equally true, though being received and interpreted through human instruments equally imperfect."
Mahatma Gandhi
sums it all up pretty nicely. people tend to forget they are human and to be human is to be flawed. unless god comes down and says it himself, you can be sure human imperfections will skew it to some personal side. |
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05/13/2004 02:14:13 PM · #292 |
While much of the article is true ( that is, Christian fundamentalists DO believe in the Rapture, the Tribulation, Armegeddon, etc. ) most of the article is editorial in nature. The authore says that we ( Christian fundamentalists ) are "bonkers" and are "delusional". Gee, isn't that what the Catholic church said about Copernicus - BEFORE his statements that the earth was NOT the center of the universe and that it revolved around the sun were found to be true?
See, only the future will show whether we are bonkers or deluded. If the prophesies do NOT come true, then we are, but if they DO, than we are not. Only time will tell. It's premature to state either as FACT.
On another point, one must consider the author of the article you link to. From his rhetoric, it is obvious ( to me, at least ) that the auther is anti-Christian and anti-Capitalist. In fact, the author is, if anything, a communist. You need look no further than this interview for insight:
Interview with George Monbiot
In it, he says, among other things:
"We have to restrain those who have seized a disproportionate share of the world's resources. We have to remove some of the resources from their hands, and redistribute them to other people. We have to ensure that this becomes a world for all of its people, not just a fortunate few."
Ah, yes - the old redistribution of personal wealth. Sounds quite Democratic, doesn't it?
Ron |
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05/13/2004 02:20:30 PM · #293 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Famous quotes, many pertain to these conversations. |
Gosh, that's a lot of quotes. And quite interesting, too. You must have spent a LOT of time on Google to find them all.
Perhaps it would be more meaningful, however, if you could enlighten us with YOUR PERSONAL view of each of them. Do you agree with the quote or disagree with it, and can you offer up some logical reasoning why you hold the opinion you do?
Ron |
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05/13/2004 02:29:24 PM · #294 |
So this topic starts as; Look at these horrible photos
And turns into;
we should/shouldn't be at war
left vs right
Bush/Rumsfield is/isn't evil
What would it take for peace in the middle east
and now we are attacking/defending the religous right
Did I miss anything. It's been a fun ride. |
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05/13/2004 02:31:54 PM · #295 |
Originally posted by louddog:
So this topic starts as; Look at these horrible photos
And turns into;
we should/shouldn't be at war
left vs right
Bush/Rumsfield is/isn't evil
What would it take for peace in the middle east
and now we are attacking/defending the religous right
Did I miss anything. It's been a fun ride. |
I would have to say the last is more of a christian bashing fun fest in order to marginalize the horrors and attrocities commited by muslims!
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05/13/2004 03:58:59 PM · #296 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Famous quotes, many pertain to these conversations. |
Gosh, that's a lot of quotes. And quite interesting, too. You must have spent a LOT of time on Google to find them all.
Perhaps it would be more meaningful, however, if you could enlighten us with YOUR PERSONAL view of each of them. Do you agree with the quote or disagree with it, and can you offer up some logical reasoning why you hold the opinion you do?
Ron |
my more open religious opinion:
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
and i think this one:
"For me, the different religions are beautiful flowers from the same garden, or they are branches of the same majestic tree. Therefore, they are equally true, though being received and interpreted through human instruments equally imperfect."
Mahatma Gandhi
sums it all up pretty nicely. people tend to forget they are human and to be human is to be flawed. unless god comes down and says it himself, you can be sure human imperfections will skew it to some personal side. |
the pat robertson quotes are to show the insanity of taking religion to far, the others are other examples of extreme conservative views, both of which i think suck.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
George Bush Senior, during a conservative fundraiser
i mean, wtf is this crap? this man was president and his son is now president. how is such a small minded man able to have the highest seat in the land?
the other quotes from Einstein, Mark Twain, Mahatma Gandhi, Franklin Delano Roosevelt hold more true to my oppinions.
and it didnt take that long to put them together. all those quotes came from 2 websites.
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05/13/2004 04:02:12 PM · #297 |
Yesterday I ask the question: "George W. Bush calls a summit with Bin Laden, Saddam, Arafat and the other powerful leaders of the Jihad; what would be the terms of surrender and would you be willing to agree to them." So far no one has directly answered the question so I thought I would share my take on what the terms may look like.
1. America must stop supporting Israel and allow them to be destroyed.
2. America must withdraw all troops, close all military bases and relinquish all control of any civilian interests in the Muslim world.
3. America must acknowledge the divine right and inevitability of Muslims ruling the world.
4. America must surrender the concept of "separation of church and state".
5. America must convert to Islam and live under its rules.
6. All women will submit to men.
7. Failure to comply will result in punishment as determined in the Koran.
I'm basing this on my limited understanding of the radical fundamentalist that are calling for the Jihad in the first place and I'm basing it on what they are trying to do to Saudi Arabia and Iran and what they did do in Afghanistan.
This is my fear and explains why I am so passionate about what is happening and so afraid of what will happen if we lose. Please tell me where I am wrong.
Message edited by author 2004-05-13 16:10:02. |
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05/13/2004 04:05:57 PM · #298 |
| your 1st one is feesable.. |
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05/13/2004 04:07:45 PM · #299 |
Originally posted by rcrawford:
1. America must stop supporting Israel and allow them to be destroyed.
2. America must withdraw all troops, close all military bases and relinquish all control of any civilian interests in the Muslim world.
3. America must acknowledge the divine right and inevitability of Muslims ruling the world.
4. America must surrender the concept of "separation of church and state".
5. America must convert to Islam and live under its rules.
6. All women will submit to men.
7. Failure to comply will result in punishment as determined in the Koran.
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Wow,LOL !
You are right on money !
Don't forget that in 1999 Clinton sided with UCK (Muslim Albanian extrimist organisation ) which have similar rules,bombed Serbia into submission and gave Kosovo to be ruled by Muslim terrorist gang !
Since then ,2000 churches have been burned,200,000 Christians have been raped ,killed or expelled and their properties destroyed. |
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05/13/2004 04:12:29 PM · #300 |
Originally posted by pitsaman:
Originally posted by rcrawford:
1. America must stop supporting Israel and allow them to be destroyed.
2. America must withdraw all troops, close all military bases and relinquish all control of any civilian interests in the Muslim world.
3. America must acknowledge the divine right and inevitability of Muslims ruling the world.
4. America must surrender the concept of "separation of church and state".
5. America must convert to Islam and live under its rules.
6. All women will submit to men.
7. Failure to comply will result in punishment as determined in the Koran.
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Wow,LOL !
You are right on money !
Don't forget that in 1999 Clinton sided with UCK (Muslim Albanian extrimist organisation ) which have similar rules,bombed Serbia into submission and gave Kosovo to be ruled by Muslim terrorist gang !
Since then ,2000 churches have been burned,200,000 Christians have been raped ,killed or expelled and their properties destroyed. |
I don't understand. Is this sarcasm or are you serious? |
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