| Author | Thread |
|
|
06/18/2004 10:33:28 PM · #376 |
1) The nearest U.S. military facilitiy to Mecca was at Jeddah, about 50 miles away.
2) The nearest U.S. military facility to Medina was at Yanbu, about 100 miles away.
3) Very high ranking Islamic clerics have openly called for the destruction of the Jews. For example, Sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, the Saudi government appointed imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca calls Jews "scum of the earth" and "monkeys and pigs" who should be "annihilated." Another ranking Saudi Cleric, Mohammed Salah el-Munjeed, stated: "How can Moslems not be joyful in the killing of Jews and infidels? Allah will surely gladden the hearts of his followers as they kill and destroy all of them." I interpret those remarks as meaning that they want to destroy all Jews. Now, I grant that there is a difference between Jews and Israel. Jews are people, Israel is real estate. So in that context, you may be right - they don't want to destroy Israel - they want to occupy it.
There are atrocities on both sides in the conflict, but I don't think that the Israelis ever specifically targeted school buses and/or shopping malls, or offered rewards to the families of suicide bombers.
Ron |
|
|
|
06/18/2004 11:46:43 PM · #377 |
| Okay so we did not go into Iraq and now Saddam is still in power and you decide to join DP Challenge and talk some anti govt. trash in a chat room. All of a sudden your door is broken down you are dragged off to some mass grave shot dead by Saddams loyal forces and you are never heard from again... Do you really think for a second that life in Iraq is not much better now for the average Iraqi and will not be 100 times better for their children. This is the big picture.. trying to justify our interigation tactics vs the death and dismemberment of prisoners is just stupid. If you dont agree with President Bush then dont vote for him in November but in the meantime try not to sound like an asshole defending the actions of terrorists and Militant Islamic Fundementalists. |
|
|
|
06/18/2004 11:53:52 PM · #378 |
Originally posted by RonB:
1) The nearest U.S. military facilitiy to Mecca was at Jeddah, about 50 miles away.
2) The nearest U.S. military facility to Medina was at Yanbu, about 100 miles away.
3) Very high ranking Islamic clerics have openly called for the destruction of the Jews. For example, Sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, the Saudi government appointed imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca calls Jews "scum of the earth" and "monkeys and pigs" who should be "annihilated." Another ranking Saudi Cleric, Mohammed Salah el-Munjeed, stated: "How can Moslems not be joyful in the killing of Jews and infidels? Allah will surely gladden the hearts of his followers as they kill and destroy all of them." I interpret those remarks as meaning that they want to destroy all Jews. Now, I grant that there is a difference between Jews and Israel. Jews are people, Israel is real estate. So in that context, you may be right - they don't want to destroy Israel - they want to occupy it.
There are atrocities on both sides in the conflict, but I don't think that the Israelis ever specifically targeted school buses and/or shopping malls, or offered rewards to the families of suicide bombers.
Ron |
:) Hey, I agree with you on these points! Sibling rivalry is indeed awful ... really makes me wonder who this god of love and mercy is they keep praying to, and what that god would think of all the killing. |
|
|
|
06/19/2004 12:23:13 AM · #379 |
From today's New York Times:
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
How the Holy Warriors Learned to Hate
By WALEED ZIAD
Published: June 18, 2004
...
So where did the "Islamic" political parties and their militants emerge from?
The turning point was the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The West and its allies decided the best resistance to Moscow would come through presenting the war as a religious struggle. While Pakistani religious leaders had little political power, they did have considerable influence over the madrasas in Pakistan's northwestern frontier region and in Afghanistan. Even the most benign found this to be an opportunity to finally win recognition (and a fortune), and they set up their own militant subsidiaries. Madrasas were converted overnight into training grounds for mujahedeen. In exchange for political power and global recognition, these impoverished students readily became cannon fodder in Afghanistan.
Of course, the eventual Soviet withdrawal meant an end to all that Western attention and money. The mujahedeen needed a new cause. International events — including the Persian Gulf war and the Palestinian intifada — provided one: hatred of America. An ethnic Pashtun militia, which metamorphosed into the Taliban, provided a rallying point for the unemployed mujahedeen. The rest is history.
Today, Western politicians, academics and intelligence experts continue to search through the annals of history to determine the sources of this jihadist mindset. But the truth is, it is just another ideology adopted by so-called religious parties in the former British Empire for short-term political gains, and fueled by the frustrations of a disaffected lower class.
To battle this phenomenon, then, we need to open a new front on the war on terrorism. Permanently dislodging these extremists calls for educational, economic and cultural development. A first step should be working with Afghanistan and Pakistan to move the focus of the madrasas away from holy war. Equally important is providing more Western money for new schools to provide functional education, coupled with real economic opportunities for graduates. Education and jobs, not rooting out some faux-religious doctrine, are the means by which the disenfranchised may be brought back into the fold.
Considering the vast populations of the underclasses in these countries, changing their lot may take longer than war, but it would be cheaper and is the only long-term solution. And in doing so, America would be seen not as an occupier but as a purveyor of prosperity, winning the hearts and minds of generations to come.
Waleed Ziad, an economist consultant, contributes to The News, a Pakistani daily. |
|
|
|
06/19/2004 06:00:27 AM · #380 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
From today's New York Times:
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
How the Holy Warriors Learned to Hate
By WALEED ZIAD
Published: June 18, 2004
Equally important is providing more Western money for new schools to provide functional education, coupled with real economic opportunities for graduates. Education and jobs, not rooting out some faux-religious doctrine, are the means by which the disenfranchised may be brought back into the fold.
|
Doing the same with the Palestinians would also go a long way to furthering the reduction of terrorism from Islamic extremists and is a sure way to a LASTING peace, and a lot cheaper too, in the long run.
Just like you have had leaders in the US who misled their countrymen into war, the cleric leaders of the Islamists do the same with their follower and it's a vicious cycle that needs to be stopped. |
|
|
|
06/19/2004 09:23:48 AM · #381 |
Originally posted by NYTIMES:
To battle this phenomenon, then, we need to open a new front on the war on terrorism. Permanently dislodging these extremists calls for educational, economic and cultural development. A first step should be working with Afghanistan and Pakistan to move the focus of the madrasas away from holy war. Equally important is providing more Western money for new schools to provide functional education, coupled with real economic opportunities for graduates. Education and jobs, not rooting out some faux-religious doctrine, are the means by which the disenfranchised may be brought back into the fold. |
I came across a very interesting article in the Jerusalem Post that supports that premise. The article points to the changes that have taken place in the towns just inside the West-Bank fence. To quote just one statement - from a Palestinian, ( Umm el-Fahm City Manager ) Tawfiq Karaman: "God be blessed, the fence ended the parade of terrorists through this city and gave us an economic boom and increased security." The truth, say Karaman and leaders of the Islamic Movement, is that the security fence has significantly improved their lives.
You can read the entire article HERE
Ron |
|
|
|
06/21/2004 09:28:31 PM · #382 |
US Holding Prisoners In More Than Two Dozen Secret Detention Facilities Worldwide
Some excerpts from this article appearing in the Human Rights First web site:
"WASHINGTON, D.C. (June 17) – A new report from Human Rights First (the new name of the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) outlines the scope of the global network of U.S. detention facilities holding suspects in the "war on terror." The report lists more than two dozen facilities that have been reported by Human Rights First sources and the media; at least half of these operate in total secrecy.
In addition to listing known detention facilities – including prisons at Guantanamo Bay, Bagram Air Force Base, and Abu Ghraib – the report, "Ending Secret Detentions" provides an accounting of U.S. military detention facilities reported in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Jordan, and aboard U.S. ships at sea (see attached list)."
"The abuses at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib cannot be addressed in isolation," said Deborah Pearlstein, the Director of Human Rights First's U.S. Law and Security Program. "The United States government is holding prisoners in a secret system of off-shore prisons beyond the reach of adequate supervision, accountability, or law."
"The report, called "Ending Secret Detention," concludes that the secrecy surrounding this network of detention facilities, as it has been constructed and operated by the United States, makes "inappropriate detention and abuse not only likely, but inevitable." Human Rights First calls on the Administration to give the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) immediate access to all those it is holding in custody in the "war on terror."
"...the report argues that the United States' illegal treatment of detainees puts U.S. forces abroad at greater risk of the same kinds of torture and ill treatment. It also describes how these illegal practices seriously undermine the United States' ability to forge alliances throughout the international community – a goal essential to defeating terrorism over the long term. "The United States' practices in its global network of detention facilities also has a deeply negative effect on the U.S. ability to combat the threat of terrorism," the report finds, "which depends critically on a visible demonstration that U.S. deeds match its words in supporting democracy and human rights."
|
|
|
|
07/19/2004 06:37:59 PM · #383 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frychikn:
You, like most of the media, forgot to give equal exposure to the photos of charred bodies dragged around by cars and hanging from bridges. The rest of the world should have seen that too. |
Not to excuse the atrocities on either side, but we invaded their country; an as such they have somewhat more a defensible position since they are actually defending themselves from attackers. |
exactly.
not to mention, we are suppost to be a 'liberating' force and we are suppost to uphold our great 'american morals'.
also, please dont confuse 'terrorists' with 'freedom fighters'. if the united states was being invaded and we were sabatoging the invading force every chance we got would we be terrorists? |
True!!!! but who is to say that these guys did not just blow up some of there friends.... i would have to say that if these prisoners just killed someone in my Unit.. I would be the one taking pictures...Sorry if you think its wrong... But spend some time in the Armed Forces and tell me how you feel about this... Dont blame the Soldiers... Balme spending time away from home from your Family for one year and seeing some of your best friends getting killed because of the people in the pictures.. Yes im very bad at spelling and grammer =) |
|
|
|
07/19/2004 07:04:11 PM · #384 |
Originally posted by A Weaver:
But spend some time in the Armed Forces and tell me how you feel about this... Dont blame the Soldiers... Balme spending time away from home from your Family for one year and seeing some of your best friends getting killed because of the people in the pictures.. |
Indeed. Which is why spreading the army thin by starting a second war when the 1st was not done was such a bad idea. Now guys who have been there too long and need to come home are going to be staying longer, being exposed to more violence and death.
I do believe the men doing that torturing where ordered to, but I dont believe they were ordered to take pictures and enjoy it. That comes from the nature of war and what it does to humans. |
|
|
|
08/30/2004 07:15:19 PM · #385 |
|
|
|
08/31/2004 09:49:12 PM · #386 |
| Get a life Mad...what in hell do you know about being under fire from some bastard trying to kill you. You are bright enough to research the internet for other people's opinions and experience, and you should understand that those of us who have been there do not want to listen to those of you who have not! |
|
|
|
08/31/2004 10:08:34 PM · #387 |
I realize you think because "you̢۪ve been around" and im a "young punk who takes his freedom for granted" that I must not understand what im talking about.
Maybe you could enlighten me?
Piling together naked Iraqi̢۪s who tried to fight an invading force to their country is normal military practice and I should STFU on stuff I don̢۪t understand?
Maybe I don̢۪t understand that after extreme traumatic situations like watching your buddies get there arms and dicks shot off, a person might want to retaliate viciously?
Maybe you could explain to me why things like this should not be discussed and a commander should not be held accountable for them? Maybe I should listen to my leaders and 'shut up̢۪? |
|
|
|
08/31/2004 10:47:48 PM · #388 |
Originally posted by JEM:
Get a life Mad...what in hell do you know about being under fire from some bastard trying to kill you. You are bright enough to research the internet for other people's opinions and experience, and you should understand that those of us who have been there do not want to listen to those of you who have not! |
***I'll bet that there are plenty of enlisted men/women (and their families that would be very happy to come home. Besides, the American Red Cross has already came out with a report that 90% of the people in Abu Ghraib were innocent and did not take part in any kind of attacks against the coalition forces and were not taking part in any kinds of terrorist activities.
And, if you're going to tell other people that they have no right to talk out against what's going on because they lack military experience (at least that's how I understand you...correct me if I'm wrong) then the Bush administration have no right to be sending men and women off to fight in Iraq in an unneeded war, as no one in the Bush administration has served in any kind of war. |
|
|
|
08/31/2004 11:19:25 PM · #389 |
Mad, Oly, you do not misunderstand my point. Bitch, bitch, bitch...fine if you are under fire, or even under stress of being killed. But what is the excuse for the incessant drumbeat of whining from people who simply take advantage of living in our free country without having done anything other than breathe the air of freedom.
You abuse the sacrifice of people who have suffered to extend those freedoms which you feel are your RIGHT to enjoy.
Message edited by author 2004-08-31 23:24:47. |
|
|
|
08/31/2004 11:43:43 PM · #390 |
Originally posted by JEM:
Mad, Oly, you do not misunderstand my point. Bitch, bitch, bitch...fine if you are under fire, or even under stress of being killed. But what is the excuse for the incessant drumbeat of whining from people who simply take advantage of living in our free country without having done anything other than breathe the air of freedom.
You abuse the sacrifice of people who have suffered to extend those freedoms which you feel are your RIGHT to enjoy. |
***Why don't you explain your point then, JEM?
I would love to hear it.
|
|
|
|
08/31/2004 11:48:36 PM · #391 |
Can't we all just....get a long! :) Okay.....Why did the cowboy buy a Dachshund?
Someone told him to "get a long little doggy!" :) |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 12:45:14 AM · #392 |
| I have explained my point Oly. Which part do you not understand? |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 12:57:45 AM · #393 |
Originally posted by JEM:
I have explained my point Oly. Which part do you not understand? |
***JEM...you were the one who stated that neither I, nor Madmordegon, understand your point...look above...So, explain what you want us to understand that we fail to get. |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 12:57:46 AM · #394 |
And, returning to segment 1 of this thread, and Paul Marcus' remark about asking John McCain about being "hazed". Captain McCain is a remarkable man, and a hero to me. He, and too many others of our American prisoners were brutally tortured by the North Vietnamese. The intimidation and humiliation of Iraqui prisoners at Abu Grahib was incorrect by our American standards, and those responsible will be tried for their conduct.
You should not be misled to believe that Abu Grahib was remotely related to the real torture dealt to Americans, and their allies, in WWll by the Japanese and Germans. |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 01:13:32 AM · #395 |
A portion of my point is really quite simple...you cannot understand the stress of armed combat unless you have been there. Enemy trying to kill YOU at every opportunity is stressful. Seeing friends and comrades horribly wounded and killed is stressful.
Being critical of conduct, unless you have been there, is ignorant and indefensible. Spare me the political platitudes about the status of our civilian government. An additional element of the point you question is my antipathy to solutions, or lack of, from people with no basis of experience in the subject in question.
Opinions are just that...opinions. |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 01:39:02 AM · #396 |
Originally posted by JEM:
A portion of my point is really quite simple...you cannot understand the stress of armed combat unless you have been there. Enemy trying to kill YOU at every opportunity is stressful. Seeing friends and comrades horribly wounded and killed is stressful.
Being critical of conduct, unless you have been there, is ignorant and indefensible. Spare me the political platitudes about the status of our civilian government. An additional element of the point you question is my antipathy to solutions, or lack of, from people with no basis of experience in the subject in question.
Opinions are just that...opinions. |
***Whose conduct do you think I'm criticizing? I have only criticized the president's and his administrations', not the enlisted man/woman's conduct. They are the heros.
I'm glad we seem to agree on one thing...that is war is horrible...and why I have been screaming to send our troops home and not face these horrors...Are you saying that I"m not entitled to criticize the president for this very thing we agree on? |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 09:09:00 AM · #397 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
***Whose conduct do you think I'm criticizing? I have only criticized the president's and his administrations', not the enlisted man/woman's conduct. They are the heros.
I'm glad we seem to agree on one thing...that is war is horrible...and why I have been screaming to send our troops home and not face these horrors...Are you saying that I"m not entitled to criticize the president for this very thing we agree on? |
Olyuzi, let me ask you a serious question. I'd really like to know what you think would happen in Iraq and Afghanistan if the U.S. were to immediately pulled all of its troops out?
Ron |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 10:04:27 AM · #398 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
***Whose conduct do you think I'm criticizing? I have only criticized the president's and his administrations', not the enlisted man/woman's conduct. They are the heros.
I'm glad we seem to agree on one thing...that is war is horrible...and why I have been screaming to send our troops home and not face these horrors...Are you saying that I"m not entitled to criticize the president for this very thing we agree on? |
Olyuzi, let me ask you a serious question. I'd really like to know what you think would happen in Iraq and Afghanistan if the U.S. were to immediately pulled all of its troops out?
Ron |
***I think there would be continued fighting for political control of the country and that civil war would break out if the US pulled out completely. |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 10:31:21 AM · #399 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
***Whose conduct do you think I'm criticizing? I have only criticized the president's and his administrations', not the enlisted man/woman's conduct. They are the heros.
I'm glad we seem to agree on one thing...that is war is horrible...and why I have been screaming to send our troops home and not face these horrors...Are you saying that I"m not entitled to criticize the president for this very thing we agree on? |
Olyuzi, let me ask you a serious question. I'd really like to know what you think would happen in Iraq and Afghanistan if the U.S. were to immediately pulled all of its troops out?
Ron |
***I think there would be continued fighting for political control of the country and that civil war would break out if the US pulled out completely. |
I agree.
So, my next question to you is this: if that is what were to happen, how many deaths would you predict would occur as
a) a direct result of the escalated fighting and/or civil war, and
b) as an indirect result of that war ( e.g. deaths caused by air-borne, soil-borne, and water-borne diseases exacerbated by the actions of war )? |
|
|
|
09/01/2004 10:46:16 AM · #400 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
***Whose conduct do you think I'm criticizing? I have only criticized the president's and his administrations', not the enlisted man/woman's conduct. They are the heros.
I'm glad we seem to agree on one thing...that is war is horrible...and why I have been screaming to send our troops home and not face these horrors...Are you saying that I"m not entitled to criticize the president for this very thing we agree on? |
Olyuzi, let me ask you a serious question. I'd really like to know what you think would happen in Iraq and Afghanistan if the U.S. were to immediately pulled all of its troops out?
Ron |
***I think there would be continued fighting for political control of the country and that civil war would break out if the US pulled out completely. |
I agree.
So, my next question to you is this: if that is what were to happen, how many deaths would you predict would occur as
a) a direct result of the escalated fighting and/or civil war, and
b) as an indirect result of that war ( e.g. deaths caused by air-borne, soil-borne, and water-borne diseases exacerbated by the actions of war )? |
***I'm not saying that we need to just drop the ball and let things go as they may. We need to get other countries and the United Nations involved to start the process towards making Iraq a more stable country, in how Iraqis decide to run their country. As it stands now, Ron, Iraqis see that a CIA man has been made president of their country, and before that, anotehr CIA man was slated for that position until his corruption came out and the US turned against him. They see that John Negroponte has been appointed as US ambassador to Iraq. His history in Central America during the Reagan/Bush I years has been to terrorize the native populations in Honduras and Nicaragua. As it stands now, it appears that Iraq is getting out of control and more and more deaths will ensue on both sides. The American government has completely destablized the region and Saudi Arabia is soon to follow. We need to start getting more countries and the UN involved. My opinion. |
|
