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07/06/2009 05:08:15 PM · #1 |
I thought it may be an interesting discussion that will likely ruffle a few feathers.
I think this is one of the disconnects on this site and in many other pursuits where there is a migration from the "pure", or "antiquated" form. I experience this with fly fishing for example and photography is no different ...... in my opinion. Yes, my opinion.
I'd say to be a strong photographer, you need skills behind the camera extending into the "darkroom". Now to what extent you'll depend on either skill is up to the individual.
I see basic editing as encouragement to only rely on half of what is needed to be a "photographer". Its limiting, and in many cases, debilitating.
Fire away. |
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07/06/2009 05:11:55 PM · #2 |
I STRONGLY disagree. I rarely do advanced editing, I have no idea how to use layers, 90% of my editing is basic. About the only advanced editing I do is to clone out minor (very minor) distractions.
So if I were to agree with you, then that would mean I am a weak photographer? You have a look at my photos and decide if that's the case. Maybe it is, maybe my photos are only half as good as they could be. But I'm happy with them and with basic editing. |
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07/06/2009 05:13:39 PM · #3 |
Valid point. 'Wrong" I might add, but valid never the less!
Just messin! |
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07/06/2009 05:32:02 PM · #4 |
I like the basic editing. I am self taught in photoshop, and I am also a slow learner, so if everything was advanced editing, I dont think I could compete as well.
But I also like the purity of minimal and basic editing. More strength is necessary in composition than in finishing, as you are not always able to 'fix' problem areas in the photo.
I think this site does a good job of representing different types of editing. Expert editing is the only one that doesnt come up regularly, which I think is fair because it borders on digital art rather than photography IMO. |
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07/06/2009 05:33:27 PM · #5 |
Now hold on here. Are you saying fly fishing is antiquated? IMO it is pure fishing where knowledge, technique and skill all merge to make it an art.
Likewise, relying on basic editing where you have to exercise good technique "in camera" and get it right from the start is it's own challenge/reward. While I like the advanced rule set and the wonders of PS, there is also something to be said for "pure" photography. |
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07/06/2009 05:38:39 PM · #6 |
If we only had a few members on DPC, it would make sense to try and go with the majority of opinions, since it wouldn't be feasible to run too many different challenges.
However, since we HUNDREDS of believers in every camp you can dream of, surely we could cater to ALL of them by having weekly challenges of all types to choose from.
It really doesn't matter who is more "right" - we should all get the chance to pick the type of challenge we believe in.
Who knows...... we might even learn something from the "others" in process. |
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07/06/2009 05:39:35 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by smichener:
Now hold on here. Are you saying fly fishing is antiquated? IMO it is pure fishing where knowledge, technique and skill all merge to make it an art.
Likewise, relying on basic editing where you have to exercise good technique "in camera" and get it right from the start is it's own challenge/reward. While I like the advanced rule set and the wonders of PS, there is also something to be said for "pure" photography. |
LOL, No worries about the fly fishing as I'm an avid fly tosser.
My point is that the emphasis upon basic editing defines a comfort zone that many will never stray from. Its like saying you are well read when you'll only ever read Steven King novels and nothing else.
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07/06/2009 05:40:02 PM · #8 |
I'm curious as well what you meant in regards to fly fishing.
Regarding basic editing though... maybe, but I think that it's useful because it keeps people who are new to digital from being overwhelmed. I agree that a well composed shot that is well edited is better, but having people focus on the product and view it from beginning to end is a bit much to expect for people who may or may not be accustomed to digital workflow. Having said that, it might sound like I think basic editing is only for beginners. This isn't what I mean, I'm just suggesting it is an easier jump in point for them. |
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07/06/2009 05:43:27 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I'm curious as well what you meant in regards to fly fishing? |
I'm speaking of the rabid purist that shun any hook that was not fashioned with natural fibers. |
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07/06/2009 06:01:09 PM · #10 |
| It seems a bit curious to speak of "purity" in such a relatively new medium. Digital photography is shunned by film photographers for that reason. The art is constantly changing. |
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07/06/2009 06:03:37 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
I'm curious as well what you meant in regards to fly fishing? |
I'm speaking of the rabid purist that shun any hook that was not fashioned with natural fibers. |
Ah. Gotcha. If you wanna see some REALLY rabid purists, you should check out the rockclimbing purists. It's like some weirdo religion or something that elevates them to higher levels of pomposity.
I do see the parallels for what you mean with fishing though. For the fly tyer, the darkroom is the tying stand, and limiting your materials is akin to limiting your software tools.
But like I said about photography... give a beginner fly tyer all the thousands of types of hair and what not and they'll just stare at you not knowing what the hell to make. Gotta start with a foundation. |
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07/06/2009 06:18:29 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by franktheyank:
It seems a bit curious to speak of "purity" in such a relatively new medium. Digital photography is shunned by film photographers for that reason. The art is constantly changing. |
Excellent point. Do we really point a "camera" at our subjects, in a traditional sense, or do we point a compact computer with a lens attached to it?? Seems sorta hypocritical in a way?
I'm certain that within the not too distant future, there will be a full editing suite available within the "cameras" anyhow.
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07/06/2009 06:30:26 PM · #13 |
I think basic and minimal editing require more work before the image is taken and I believe having those skills in your 'toolbox' are more important than the post editing ones. Good images require little editing to enhance them, even though DPC prefers a lot of editing. Post processing may make a good image great, but it rarely makes a mediocre image good (contrary to DPC scoring).
I cringe everytime I hear a photographer say, "Oh, it doesn't matter, I can fix that in photoshop." Well, if they took the picture correctly, they wouldn't need to fix it. They shouldn't need to fix it. Contrary to what some people think, it is easy to tell when you fake a polarizer, a lensbaby, a softening filter; it is easy to tell when you fix harsh and bad lighting; it is pretty easy to tell when something has been edited out. Granted DPC is at 720 max res - I can't imagine some images submitted look good any larger than that. I would guess, if your goal is solely to create images for DPC than yes, post processing is more important; outside of that, not so much.
Basic and minimal editing require a photographer to rely on their photography skills, not on their editing skills. A good photographer can do both and does not rely on one to compensate for the lack of skill in the other.
JMHO - you may continue... |
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07/06/2009 06:37:59 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Ivo:
My point is that the emphasis upon basic editing defines a comfort zone that many will never stray from. Its like saying you are well read when you'll only ever read Steven King novels and nothing else. |
The same can be said on the expert editing side of the camp as shown in another current post on this site.
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07/06/2009 06:46:51 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Granted DPC is at 720 max res |
If only that was the minimum too. I'm not a fan of basic editing, mainly because the image is just too small. I edit on a couple of 30" monitors and everything looks OK until I output at 640px and then it just looks dreadful. 720px looks much better, it is still a little restrictive but just about OK.
I can see the commercial appeal of only allowing members to post at 720 but the lure of advanced editing rules would probably be enough to bring in the punters who have tried their hand under the basic rule set. |
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07/06/2009 07:14:19 PM · #16 |
| I like the mix. As my post processing skills improve, advanced gives me room to try new things. Basic editing, however, means I don't have as many tricks I can use, so it encourages me to get it right in the camera. I would like to see the file and pixel sizes increased, however. |
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07/06/2009 08:02:32 PM · #17 |
Some photographers are "takers" and others are "makers."
The takers wander around with camera in hand until their mind's eye bumps into something interesting, unusual and they "take" the picture. The makers craft everything about their subjects, the lighting, the backdrops, the context and "make" whatever the camera captures.
The "takers," and I'm one, succeed by putting themselves in as many places as they can to bump into interesting pictures. The "makers" are masters of their craft and succeed by carefully constructing every aspect of the picture they capture.
Still, both "makers" and "takers" end up with the same thing in the camera ... an unborn photo - both them proceed to "make" a photograph by the way they prepare and present the fetal foto. When they graduate to making photos (however they captured them), they complete the process of becoming a photographer.
To paraphrase Professor Kingsfield in the TV version of the Paper Chase ... "DPCers come in here like tourists grabbing snapshots, and if they're lucky, they leave ... thinking like a photographer." |
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07/06/2009 08:26:27 PM · #18 |
| A place for everything, and everything has its place. |
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07/06/2009 08:50:44 PM · #19 |
| Basic editing is like being on a salt-free, sugar-free, fat-free diet. |
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07/06/2009 08:58:53 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Basic editing is like being on a salt-free, sugar-free, fat-free diet. |
Basic editing = rice cakes |
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07/06/2009 09:01:28 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Basic editing is like being on a salt-free, sugar-free, fat-free diet. |
Perfect analogy! |
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07/06/2009 09:08:29 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
Basic editing is like being on a salt-free, sugar-free, fat-free diet. |
LOL ..... brilliant!!! |
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07/06/2009 09:21:29 PM · #23 |
| hehehe. I can do it...for about 24 hours. Then, I need CHOCOLATE & COFFEE!!!! Expert editing is Godiva! |
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07/06/2009 11:39:14 PM · #24 |
| Regardless of the editing, the best image will be obtained if the best possible capture in camera is done. |
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07/06/2009 11:46:49 PM · #25 |
| Me, I see getting the best possible capture as a completely separate activity from the best possible edit. The best possible capture is like going to the market for the freshest ingredients, editing is like cooking, critiquing is like gratefully savoring every bite. |
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