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05/31/2004 09:46:26 PM · #1 |
| Everyone it seems likes to get comments. But are they really useful? Isn't the vote the difinitive comment. Trying to explain why I gave someone a ten seems paradoxical. Trying to explain to someone why I like a photograph seems like "If I have to tell ya.... then...." I am a new photographer and I can use all the technical help I can get. But as I review some of the comments it seems that its not just the "final product" that gets points. Dont get me wrong. I know I can use helpful criticisim and I haven't submitted any photos yet , but somtimes I can't help but think we are critiqing art. That said, I am hopelessly addicted to DP challenge. |
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05/31/2004 09:52:52 PM · #2 |
Yes, I think they are. I've had some on my photos that have really helped me. Also, I've been PM'd in the past by people that said that comments I gave them helped them with theirs.
Also, it's nice when people tell you they like your photo :)
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05/31/2004 09:57:18 PM · #3 |
To me comments are more helpful then votes. Votes can be wrong because with 200+ pictures to vote in a challenge, I belive most voters don't watch a shot for more then a few seconds. Where you get a comment atleast you know that person watched it indepth. I said this a few times and I say it again. My best shot I submitted here in a challenge is not the one I got higher score for, even if that resulted in a ribbon, it's a shot with what I scored lower but alot of people seemed to be interested in it. I got so many comments on that. Also a shot to be good doesn't have to be liked by the majority, if you manage to be hated by the majority that could be also a good shot. To me my whorse shots are the most overlooked ones.
PS the fact that most people probably don't watch a shot long enough to notice could also be the reason why some shots with a more subtle hidden story can do bad wile all the cute postcards where everything is obvious from the first look always seems to win here.
Message edited by author 2004-05-31 22:01:19. |
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05/31/2004 09:59:00 PM · #4 |
I agree with frumo.
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
To me comments are more helpful then votes. Votes can be wrong because with 200+ pictures to vote in a challenge, I belive most voters don't watch a shot for more then a few seconds. Where you get a comment atleast you know that person watched it indepth. I said this a few times and I say it again. My best shot I submitted here in a challenge is not the one I got higher score for, even if that resulted in a ribbon, it's a shot with what I scored lower but alot of people seemed to be interested in it. I got so many comments on that. Also a shot to be good doesn't have to be liked by the majority, if you manage to be hated by the majority that could be also a good shot. To me my whorse shots are the most overlooked ones. |
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05/31/2004 10:00:25 PM · #5 |
Yes they are...Some comments may need a little bit more, but the many comments that do give constructive ideas...try this, maybe look at it this way...etc, really do go along way in helping the struggling novice's like me to see where we can improve, and that is what it is all about.
And hey if someone comments means that they have taken time to really view and ponder over your work.
All comments have a positive spin. |
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05/31/2004 10:33:05 PM · #6 |
I think they are (for the most part) quite useful. I have had things brought to my attention that I hadn't noticed, and had suggestions made that helped me to do things better the next time. I have only had one or two comments out of some 195 or so that have been blatantly rude or in bad taste. I appreciate the assistance and the insight that comments bring, and it makes me want to do a better job knowing that someone takes the time to speak to me and my picture because of some reason or another. Just my 2 cents! :o)
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05/31/2004 10:39:14 PM · #7 |
| Yes but dont you ever get the feeling that trying to comment on why you like something is hard. Dont get me wrong. I know that feedback about taking better pictures is priceless, but my point is how can you really explain what it is about the "Mona Lisa" that makes it a 10. IMO photography is just as much about art as it is technique. I guess I have always felt that comments made at art exhibits sound so "huh??" and I can see some of those comments made here. |
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05/31/2004 10:48:29 PM · #8 |
| I truly appreciate comments. I am new to this site, and fairly new with photography/photo editing. I am looking for comments/criticsm to help me improve. |
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05/31/2004 10:57:20 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by slingshot:
Yes but dont you ever get the feeling that trying to comment on why you like something is hard. Dont get me wrong. I know that feedback about taking better pictures is priceless, but my point is how can you really explain what it is about the "Mona Lisa" that makes it a 10. IMO photography is just as much about art as it is technique. I guess I have always felt that comments made at art exhibits sound so "huh??" and I can see some of those comments made here. |
I understand what you mean...especially if the artist or photographer goes into some soliloquy about the meaning and the artist's vision or what they were expressing. I don't know why I'd give the Mona Lisa a 10, or even if I would. I like some photos for concrete reasons, others just because I like them. In comments, you don't have to say why you like it. You can just say, "Hey, that's cool. I like it." But it is most helpful to give comments that explain why you DON'T like it. At least those are most helpful to me. Especially as my score in Threes is tanking so badly (and no comments yet). Take it all in stride, appreciate the ones you get, and hope that we all get better along the way. :o)
PS...hope that didn't sound preachy or anything. It's late! :o)
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05/31/2004 10:59:19 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by slingshot:
Yes but dont you ever get the feeling that trying to comment on why you like something is hard. Dont get me wrong. I know that feedback about taking better pictures is priceless, but my point is how can you really explain what it is about the "Mona Lisa" that makes it a 10. IMO photography is just as much about art as it is technique. I guess I have always felt that comments made at art exhibits sound so "huh??" and I can see some of those comments made here. |
Thanks for starting this interesting thread. I think maybe you're taking a different approach to comments than I am. My comments fall into three categories:
1. I love a shot and just wanted to let the person know. Positive feedback is always nice.
2. I like a shot, but think that something specific could have been done to improve it, so I suggest that to the photographer.
3. I like a shot, but thought it was wrong for a particular challenge, so I tell the person that it's a nice photo in spite of its score.
I don't see any reason to try and explain why I think a photo is truly outstanding. It should be pretty self-evident. If there's some detail in particular that I like about the photo, I might call attention to it, but I usually just limit myself to something like, "Great shot!"
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05/31/2004 11:07:40 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by slingshot:
Yes but dont you ever get the feeling that trying to comment on why you like something is hard. Dont get me wrong. I know that feedback about taking better pictures is priceless, but my point is how can you really explain what it is about the "Mona Lisa" that makes it a 10. IMO photography is just as much about art as it is technique. I guess I have always felt that comments made at art exhibits sound so "huh??" and I can see some of those comments made here. |
About monalisa 1 million words were already written, and in my opinion photography is (should be) alot less about tehnique than about art. I give alot more on a shot that has a story but may be not as good tehnically, than on one that is perfectly executed, but has no story to tell. This is me others may feel different about it.
Still I understand how you feel, when I first started here, I had your problem too, not having much experience with photography, I found my words to comment a photo verry hard. I knew I like one or that I didn't like another but couldn't really tell why. I guess when you are new to a field, you can't really have so many bulding blocks for opinions. That comes with time, experience, comments of others to your shots, study, the more obsessed you become with it, the more you will start having a personal scale, personal likes, dislikes and such. But also as long as you make them polite, :) don't be afraid to have any opinions, they are yours, and if you feel a way it is probably so, from your point of view. |
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05/31/2004 11:31:56 PM · #12 |
Scores approach meaningless numbers, but provide a "global view" of perception.
Comments are priceless thoughts of a viewer's mind as they contemplated our piece of art.
When I first got serious in this business, I took many, many nature workshops from the best in the business.
The workshop format I found MOST helpful were the ones where the students (and instructor) got together a couple weeks after the workshop to share their thoughts with each other and critique each others' images.
If we can improve this site, which is a hard assignment, it would be to invent a way to foster more "personal" comments. These personal insights are the best present we can give each other.
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05/31/2004 11:39:47 PM · #13 |
I'm actually pretty bored and disappointed to read a comment that just says, "Nice shot." I like to know what it was that pulled a viewer in. Often, the same thing that turns one person off is what another person specifically liked. It is much easier to determine whether something is simply a matter of taste at that point if you specify what really grabs you about a shot.
It isn't too hard to say a few words about why you like a shot. It just requires a bit of thought. I'm reluctant to bring up art again but in an art class (this includes photography) students are generally required to critique each other's work. My former figure drawing teachers would never let a student get away with a comment like, "Nice drawing." The same is true for my former photography teacher (although she was one to go a bit overboard in the analysis --- she was kind of loopy).
I sometimes find suggestions helpful but really the only one of the suggestions I've taken to heart so far is in regards to wrinkles in the backdrop. This was emphasized for me in an old NYI class booklet I found recently. Another suggestion I have stored away until I figure out how to use cloning tools. This is a suggestion to clean up some dirty snow in a picture in my portfolio. It was a very good suggestion but I haven't figured out the use of that darn tool. I'm going to have to actually look it up. ;-D
I really didn't need the suggestions about my Centered entry because I knew it was a bit fuzzy already. I really shouldn't have entered it. The repetition of that comment hammered this home.
I don't mind receiving suggestions on my images but I don't feel just because someone suggests something I have to blindly follow his advice either. I usually look at his portfolio and that gives me an idea of how seriously I want to consider the suggestions. |
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05/31/2004 11:47:04 PM · #14 |
I like good conversation, women, horses and the wind, and sometimes an intelligence, a piano, especially a black one, black and shiny like some pebble in the rain. I like taking pitchers, especially those I haven't seen anyone take or if someone has I would want to find out who she or he was or is, what it is that drives them to the kind of restless appetite after every shred of evidence of our brief existence in the tragic paradise we cannot leave without knowing and singing it.
When people come to my pictures and comment on them, I don't want them to come in bunches and empty-headed with a rope in their hand, like a posse. I want them to come one by one bearing no gifts but the ones that were given them when they entered the garden. I want them to speak of things that only they can know, of that which moves and excites them and of that which prevents us from being who we could be.
When people come to my pitchers I want them to look at them and consider them honestly without prejudice and preconceived ideas as to what these should conform to.
I want to invite those who wish to criticize my pictures to restrict their criticism to facts they find either in the pitchers or in their own experience and sense. I will always welcome a competent critic. A sincere one, however, will be more likely to move me to action.
I am growing increasingly weary of guests who feel a need to relieve themselves under my Picassos.
I'd like to redirect those who feel that I have failed to meet a challenge to the offending picture or, alternately, to the buffet.
I myself have sampled a little crow and found it quite nourishing.
Message edited by author 2004-05-31 23:58:38.
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06/01/2004 12:18:24 AM · #15 |
I received a comment recently that made all the benign comments worth it. The comment pointed out a specific artifact in my current challenge photo, speculated (correctly) as to the cause, and offered tips to avoid in the future.
I REALLY am trying to improve my photos. This particular comment really helped.
I guess we might be in it for the ego gratification, or we might be in it for the lessons ... but face it, we're "in it." Let's help each other raise the quality of what we have some passion for. |
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06/01/2004 12:57:07 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
I guess we might be in it for the ego gratification, or we might be in it for the lessons ... but face it, we're "in it." Let's help each other raise the quality of what we have some passion for. |
Hear hear, totally agree ... |
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06/01/2004 01:14:46 AM · #17 |
Comments are only helpful if YOU allow them to be! I can give all the constructive criticism in the world about your shot, but if you are so stuck on your shot being the greatest ever, you won't hear the message in my sermon...
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06/01/2004 01:25:55 AM · #18 |
I check almost ever comment I get as helpful since they really are for me. Even if I don't learn something from many of them, atleast I know there is something in my shot made a person stop and say something.
The only comment I'm not sure if I should take it as helpful or not, I recived it in my point of view shot and it just says this "Grainy.". Well not that that's not even a sentence, but it would be more interesting to know weather that's good or bad for that person. To me that's good since I did it on purpouse, and I want it to be that way. Makes me feel like i'm blind and without that comment I wouldn't realise my shot is grainy if I'd check it as helpful. :)
This is my first and only unhelpful comment I recived, everything else helped me with atleast knowing that my shot has a bit of impact if someone took some time to say a few words. |
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06/01/2004 08:32:36 AM · #19 |
I like comments, in general. What puzzles me, though, is when I get a comment like: "Great shot, get's a 7" Uh...hello ? If you are saying it's great and giving a 7, I'd really like a bit more criticism... what elements swayed you from a 9 or 10 ? I wish that more people who score it low would actually say why. THAT would be extremely helpful. I suppose they think it's "obvious" ?? Well, guess what? ..it isn't obvious to the photographer unless he posted an image that wasn't really his best; maybe just pushed for time and posted what he had... his fault, then.
I think that typically when one gets low scores it confuses them, as we all probably think our image is an 8-10 or we would have gone with a different one.. right? I know for a fact that I don't always post an image that I think is a 1st place winner... it's just usually the best I have at that moment. Like anyone, I get frustrated.. sometimes the lights don't cooperate, the camera isn't set-up correctly, yada yada and you go ahead and post the best you have anyway.. knowing it's not the "winner". What you hope for is some feedback that will TEACH, so that next time your learning curve is a little better.
I tremendously appreciate it when someone actually likes an image of mine (and says so).. that is feedback that tells me that I'm on the right track.."try that again", play with the concept, etc.
Of course I also realize that a lot of scoring is strictly "personal" and has very little to do with composition, contrast, and other elements of a "good photograph". It's the "like it" or "don't like it" judgement of, typically, the subject of the photograph. While this is also a bonifide score (this is a contest) it is far less valuable as a learning tool. No photographer is ever going to take an image that totally 100% of viewers will love. That just isn't human nature. It would be very interesting if TWO scores were given for a photograph: 1) technical merit 2) subject .. or something like that. More like how ice skaters are judged. It might be cool to also try a competition where there were distinct scoring rules whereas you are asked to ONLY score on technical merit. There would be some bizarre results from that !!
Rick
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06/01/2004 10:11:24 AM · #20 |
I look at 7/8 as images that are really good, but not as good as the 9/10. Usually that's a function of my mood and how the image speaks to me. I take any 7/8s in the same vein.
The cool thing about comments is they tell you if you are reaching people. It takes time and energy to comment. Even if they only say nice shot. Something moved them to comment. And that is always appreciated. :)
Clara
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06/01/2004 10:57:38 AM · #21 |
| Thank you to all for your "comments" It is very interesting to see what comments mean to diffrent people. Having said all that I cant wait to get some. Again thanks for all your comments. |
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06/01/2004 11:00:56 AM · #22 |
Comments are more useful to the person who makes them than those who get them I think.
But only if you put effort in to commenting on what you see, how it works or doesn't work for you and how you'd like to see it improved - this is more of a learning experience about what the commentor likes than about the picture being commented upon.
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06/01/2004 11:21:27 AM · #23 |
Gordon:
With respect, I disagree. Once you have mastered this craft, I think you might be right. But, for the vast majority of us that are just learning, all feedback is useful feedback.
I also agree with much of the idea behind this thread: well formed comments are more appreciated than quick comments. But, any well intentioned comment is better than no comment.
Best,
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06/01/2004 11:31:55 AM · #24 |
I think there is more than one category of comment.
When receiving a positive comment that is not necessarily critical (i.e., Nice shot, beautiful bird, etc.), then no, it may not be useful in the sense of providing instruction. But I for one appreciate these comments immensely all the same. Feedback like that is very supportive and encouraging; it does not always have to be a critique.
While I try to provide constructive criticism to the best of my ability, many times I do not know what is missing in a shot to take it from a 6 or a 7 to an 8 or a 9, or even a 10. Something feels like it is missing in those cases, or not quite right, but I don't necessarily know what it is. So, in some cases I simply provide positive feedback that is not necessarily instructional or accompanied by a suggestion. I think most people still appreciate that.
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06/01/2004 11:33:41 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by slingshot:
Everyone it seems likes to get comments. But are they really useful? Isn't the vote the difinitive comment. Trying to explain why I gave someone a ten seems paradoxical. Trying to explain to someone why I like a photograph seems like "If I have to tell ya.... then...." I am a new photographer and I can use all the technical help I can get. But as I review some of the comments it seems that its not just the "final product" that gets points. Dont get me wrong. I know I can use helpful criticisim and I haven't submitted any photos yet , but somtimes I can't help but think we are critiqing art. That said, I am hopelessly addicted to DP challenge. |
In general I agree that comments provide little information useful for improving your photography. Mostly they are just for ego. But there are the occasional useful ones.
I agree that the rating number is the most important comment on your work. It gives you a good idea how your image will be liked by a general audience. The difference between an 8 and a 10 probably is more toward the personal taste of the voter rather than any photographic quality of the image for which a suggested improvement could be made.
I strongly disagree that a great idea for a photograph makes a great photograph. Photography is an art form much like painting. Painting has techniques that the painter learns then chooses to apply what they learned to create an image. Photography has techniques as well. The photographer learns those techniques and applies them (or creats their own style) to creat great images.
Even the greatest idea for a photograph, when shot poorly, is still bad photography.
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