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 03/16/2010 11:37:28 AM · #126
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I guess I'll never understand the attitude that I'm too ignorant to appreciate art.

Who the hell said that?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...I don't necessarily feel that I should have to acquire a degree to appreciate everything in life.

Or that?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If I miss some deep-seated symbolism by living rather than studying, oh well, I guess I will remain ignorant.

Are you aware that you are ironically demeaning the kinds of people you seem to think are demeaning you?

Nobody is attempting to make anyone feel stupid, for crying out loud. But just because there's a portion of the population whose reflex is to find offense at subtext doesn't mean that those who enjoy stories in their photos shouldn't let others know what they're seeing.

Incidentally, sometimes the symbols aren't found in books or higher learning of any kind. Sometimes they're straight from the gutter. As in...
 03/16/2010 11:57:08 AM · #127
Jeb, Jeb, Jeb... :-{

1. It is sufficient to love a thing on whatever terms you love it. Nobody's quibbling with your personal likes and dislikes. I was discussing the deeper level of symbolism that happens to live in the work of the artists you mentioned. Everything is in there for a REASON, and it's *FUN* to decipher the code and see it all revealed; just like back in our Ovaltine days.

2. "Degrees" have nothing to do with it. I don't have any kind of degree in art or art history, I never took a class that taught me this stuff, but I have read and I have learned my whole life long. I once wondered why so many of the Old Masters and Renaissance artists were painting the same stuff over and over, so I started reading on it and I learned. It was fun! My horizons were broadened! No snob made me do it, it didn't gain me any broader acceptance anywhere, but it was fun.

3. Regarding "deep-seated symbolism", see above. I'm as good an example as you of "living rather than studying"; I made a conscious choice to abandon the academic environment I'd been destined for and live in the real world instead.

There've been times in the past when you've chastised me, saying, basically, "you know me well enough to know that's not me." And I say to you now, you definitely know me well enough to know I wouldn't be demeaning you in public, I wouldn't be putting you down for ignorance, lack of refinement, or any of that BS. That's not my world, and that's not my attitude.

R.
 03/16/2010 12:18:44 PM · #128
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Sometimes I feel like I'm on the outside looking in through the window. The natural questions get asked, "Am I missing some fun in there? or are the people just the same but prefer a different cup of tea?"


Jason, so much has been written in this thread overnight, please forgive my tardy response to you and I hope I haven't missed my opportunity to contribute. When I was young, people loved to visit my family's home and catch a glimpse of what is referred to as the "artist's lifestyle." I do not profess to understand "art" by definition, but I do understand the artist's lifestyle intimately because I was born into an artistic family and raised, nurtured and loved in a community of artists.

Does that make me an artist?...NO!...but I am stamped by this world nonetheless. Whenever you feel like you are on the outside looking in...remember this...what you really are is a member of an extended family full of drama, eccentricities, and all the quirky behaviors this life has to offer.

Artists who have "staying power" do not engender a sense of control in their message as much as they communicate a sense of trust. As a doctor, you will understand the sacred nature of trust and the weight of it's responsibility as well. So, at the artist's table, pull up a chair and enjoy a good meal, fine wine, and throw out on the table all that is within you.

Oh...and the family kitty cat is often underfoot, so please watch out for his tail. ;-)
03/16/2010 12:24:38 PM · #129
Does anybody know whether any of the pictures in this challenge has made it into 1x yet?

03/16/2010 12:31:47 PM · #130
Mine's in screening! Will post the result in the 1X rejects thread, as I expect that's where it will end up!

Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Does anybody know whether any of the pictures in this challenge has made it into 1x yet?
03/16/2010 12:46:41 PM · #131
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I guess I'll never understand the attitude that I'm too ignorant to appreciate art.

Originally posted by Louis:
Who the hell said that?

Read this......it's not a derogatory thing I meant when I said what I said, it is what it is. I don't know any of what Robert is saying. Should I have to to like it?
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
But, out of curiosity, are you aware that on the Old Masters there's an entire layer of iconography, of symbology, imposed upon them beyond the purely aesthetic? That any educated person of that time would know how to "read" that iconography and "decode" the image, that each image is saying some very specific things if you can do this?

If this work is of sufficient delight to me that I'd want to procure it for my enjoyment, in a print, then yeah, I'd probably research it.....I dunno if this sounds strange or not, but the only things I hang in my house are my own works. I replace it as I capture things I like better than what's there now.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...I don't necessarily feel that I should have to acquire a degree to appreciate everything in life.

Originally posted by Louis:
Or that?

Originally posted by wheeledd:
It is always nice when a work of art can be appreciated for its aesthetic qualities without any deep knowledge of the meaning in context. But I think that much contemporary art is NOT appreciated by those who do not understand the context in which the work is done.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And that by studying art history one can come to understand the layering on these images, and understanding the layering utterly deepens our appreciation of them?

I would so much rather be 43 miles from home on a rainy Sunday afternoon with the grey light coming through a torn section of roof gently illuminating the moss and deterioration of the wall in the upper mineshaft building on the side of a mountain, than buried in an art history book.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
If I miss some deep-seated symbolism by living rather than studying, oh well, I guess I will remain ignorant.

Originally posted by Louis:
Are you aware that you are ironically demeaning the kinds of people you seem to think are demeaning you?

No, I'm not......I'm simply pointing out that some people talk about this need of knowledge in order to appreciate, or understand art.
Originally posted by Louis:
Nobody is attempting to make anyone feel stupid, for crying out loud. But just because there's a portion of the population whose reflex is to find offense at subtext doesn't mean that those who enjoy stories in their photos shouldn't let others know what they're seeing.

It's not really up to you how the discussion here, or anywhere makes someone feel. I'm not trying to find offense at subtext, either, I just don't like to be told I'm missing something because I don't see what you, or someone else sees. Maybe it's just different, maybe I like something about it that you don't.

To tell you the truth, I'm figuring from your comment on my image that you saw more in it than I did, yet I'll bet a nickel you really haven't a clue what it's all about 'cause you didn't ask. How could you know without asking?

That was why I asked if anyone had any interest in another thread where we would talk about the story behind our images. The only respose put forth was from the same guy who said if you got anything deep out of his work, it wasn't his fault. I was mildly surprised there was no interest. But I will prolly ask some of the entrants later if they'd mind telling me about their entries. There were some I really liked, and I'd love to know what inspired them.

When someone sounds like they have it all figured out, I just want to know if they had a personal relationship with the artist and had the artist describe exactly what he/she was feeling. Isn't it really supposed to be about what you take away from the impression you get, and that's kind of it? Yeah, it may just be an expression, and it's over for the artist once the last mouse click is done, stroke of the brush, that last bit of stone that doesn't belong in the sculpture is chipped off. So does there have to be symbolism? Or can it just be beautiful?

It's something that is prevalent among many people and they, for the most part, aren't even aware that they're doing it. I'm sure it's not necessarily intentional, either, it just happens to make some of us feel lesser, or question what we think or feel. I've been around long enough, and have enough knowledge in general to have a serious grasp of how little I know. When someone makes a point of calling out that one needs to have some prior knowledge, experience, training, education, whatever, to appreciate this or that, of course I'm going to wonder if I'm missing out.

Look, I shouldn't, obviously, have tried to express my angst and frustration at the constant struggle it is for me to understand and appreciate art. I guess that's partly why I really never was comfortable in anything that really went down the path of artistic pursuit. Yet I have experienced so much wonder and beauty in life that I cannot understand on any level how it can be anything but personal and subjective. I'm not trying to be confrontational, or argumentative.....I really had hoped that this community that has helped me so much in the pursuit of discovery of who I am might shed some light on this subject that has always been a source of frustration, but I guess it's just different people with the same varied thoughts......if that makes any sense.
 03/16/2010 12:57:31 PM · #132
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
And I say to you now, you definitely know me well enough to know I wouldn't be demeaning you in public, I wouldn't be putting you down for ignorance, lack of refinement, or any of that BS. That's not my world, and that's not my attitude.

I didn't mean that you were telling me I was ignorant because I'm ignorant, capisce?

It's funny how that word got all screwed up. I was referring to the type of ignorance that I have in much of life. Simply a lack of knowledge.

Let me give you a f'rinstance. If you're going down a 40 degree slope in a third world country in Latin America in an old, recycled school bus, twisting and turning 'round corners on a dirt road, do you *really* want to know how intimately, and on how many different levels something can fail and send you plunging over the edge? The knowledge that I have about automotive & truck machinery made the trip up and down that mountain every day for five days when I was in Honduras a year ago a white-knuckle nightmare.

Sometimes.......ignorance *IS* bliss, and not necessarily a bad thing.
 03/16/2010 12:57:47 PM · #133
Jeb, the problem is that you're expressing your angst in a way that many of us are interpreting as condemnation. You keep saying you don't want anyone telling you how to see a thing or what to see in it, for example, and it reads like a condemnation of those of us who are publicly exploring and expressing what we see.

Look, if a sculpture were made by a Finnish artist, and it was a beautiful and enigmatic piece of work, and you loved it just for that, and it had carved into its base a phrase in the Finnish language that you could not read, would you take umbrage at someone who asked you if you were aware what the phrase was saying, and translated it into English for you?

R.
 03/16/2010 12:59:36 PM · #134
Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Does anybody know whether any of the pictures in this challenge has made it into 1x yet?

Originally posted by salmiakki:
Mine's in screening! Will post the result in the 1X rejects thread, as I expect that's where it will end up!

Ditto!
 03/16/2010 01:01:38 PM · #135
Jeb,

I'm interested in your thread idea.

There is no definitive opinion on a piece of art, regardless of background or knowledge. We each bring our own background to it, affecting our interpretation.

I, for one, would be more interested in *your* appreciation of an old car rusting in a field than I would of my own. But each of us would have an appreciation. That being said, I admire the knowledge and experience that you would bring to yours.

The only time knowledge is a bad thing is when it makes a person prideful so that he stops really looking at it. For example, someone might see the old car, recognize the make and model, and then stop looking. What a shame. Someone might see a piece of art, decide it belongs to such-and-such a movement, and stop looking. What a shame. Knowledge should be the beginning of looking, not the end of looking.
 03/16/2010 01:30:08 PM · #136
Originally posted by salmiakki:
Mine's in screening! Will post the result in the 1X rejects thread, as I expect that's where it will end up!

Originally posted by senor_kasper:
Does anybody know whether any of the pictures in this challenge has made it into 1x yet?


Where's the reject thread, Sarah?
 03/16/2010 01:31:04 PM · #137
Each of us has a uniquely different mind. People with in-depth knowledge of something are usually willing, even eager, to share what they know without sitting in judgement on the inquiring mind. Sometimes the inquiring mind will see patronage where none was intended. Reading the discussion centering around Jeb's posts I started thinking about automobiles. For some, the most interesting feature of a car is the color of its paint--others are intimately familiar with the 10,000 ways it can experience mechanical failure, & others may have detailed knowledge of the history of its design. For me the best example is any serial drama on tv--if you've only seen the one episonde it can be pretty entertaining but if you've been watching it for 3 years since episode one then you're seeing the one episode on a whole different level. Not better, just different.
 03/16/2010 01:32:00 PM · #138
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Where's the reject thread, Sarah?

1x Reject Club

It's quite a big thread :)

ETA. I am really enjoying this discussion

Message edited by author 2010-03-16 13:36:34.
 03/16/2010 01:40:19 PM · #139
Well I didn't necessarily agree with a couple of comments about my image but I'm not going to play it out here. I loved my entry and for the most part, so did others. A few didn't like it and one, not at all! SO WHAT? This is LIFE. This thread is no place for all that drama.. (NOW, who are the winners????)
 03/16/2010 01:47:20 PM · #140
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Jeb, the problem is that you're expressing your angst in a way that many of us are interpreting as condemnation.

Hmm....the possibility that the interpretation might not be accurate. Let me chew on THAT one! LOL!!!
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
You keep saying you don't want anyone telling you how to see a thing or what to see in it, for example, and it reads like a condemnation of those of us who are publicly exploring and expressing what we see.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I have a problem with someone telling me I can't either appreciate a body of work fully, or at all because I am not trained, or informed on how to do so.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Look, if a sculpture were made by a Finnish artist, and it was a beautiful and enigmatic piece of work, and you loved it just for that, and it had carved into its base a phrase in the Finnish language that you could not read, would you take umbrage at someone who asked you if you were aware what the phrase was saying, and translated it into English for you?

I think that's a bad analogy, because I have my Google page crankin' during voting because I want to understand why people entitle their images what they do.....because I'm curious and want to know. I'd probably be appreciative that someone translated for me.
 03/16/2010 01:57:07 PM · #141
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
No, that's not what I'm saying. I have a problem with someone telling me I can't either appreciate a body of work fully, or at all because I am not trained, or informed on how to do so.

Only nobody actually said that. You just made that up. And this thread isn't about you, and how insulted you are.
 03/16/2010 02:04:07 PM · #142
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
No, that's not what I'm saying. I have a problem with someone telling me I can't either appreciate a body of work fully, or at all because I am not trained, or informed on how to do so.

Originally posted by Louis:
Only nobody actually said that. You just made that up. And this thread isn't about you, and how insulted you are.

Well, I wasn't just speaking of this tiny insular world here, solely, but the art world in general, and if you think that doesn't happen, then you're just plain flat wrong.

And I'm certainly not arrogant enough to presume that this thread is about me on any level.
 03/16/2010 02:06:09 PM · #143
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I have a problem with someone telling me I can't either appreciate a body of work fully, or at all because I am not trained, or informed on how to do so.


Well, Jeb, the problem with that is in the word "fully": sticking with your Old Masters for the sake of neutrality, it's a simple *fact* that no matter how much you love the expression on the girl's face, the purity of the light coming through the window and raking the tabletop, the virtuosity with which the artist rendered the subtle draping of the cloth across her bosom, and so forth; no matter how much you love all that; you can't "fully" appreciate this image if you can't decode the iconography that's part and parcel of it.

For an example that has nothing to do with the visual arts, consider Shakespeare: from Romeo and Juliet, "O Romeo, Romeo! wherefore art thou Romeo?" Your average American thinks this means "Where are you, Romeo?" as if Juliet is begging him to come to her side. In actuality, "wherefore" was common usage in Shakespeare's day and it means "why" or "for what reason"; she's asking somewhat plaintively, why the hell he had to be a member of the family with which HER family is engaged in a blood feud.

So, appreciation is one thing, full appreciation another. Speaking for myself, I'm always happy to get filled in on the details; be assured I'd tap you like a mother lode if we were talking cars :-)

R.
 03/16/2010 02:13:45 PM · #144
Originally posted by salmiakki:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Where's the reject thread, Sarah?

1x Reject Club

It's quite a big thread :)

ETA. I am really enjoying this discussion


As am I. :)
Ah, I misunderstood you thinking you were pointing to a thread internal to 1x. I'm familiar with the DPC one, of course.
 03/16/2010 02:15:14 PM · #145
from =================>

twas a great challenge and will be remembered forevah!
 03/16/2010 02:26:32 PM · #146
Come the day when I meet my maker I would love to go and look up one of the great artists about who so much has been written, and ask him
what it all meant.

I am sooooo hoping he just says, "you know it was just a picture of a girl with a nice expression nothing more, nothing less" oh how we would all laugh eh :)

No disrespect to artists, their work or opinion.
Your home may be at risk if you dont keep up voicing your opinion.
Terms and Conditions apply

Message edited by author 2010-03-16 14:26:58.
 03/16/2010 02:31:57 PM · #147
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Come the day when I meet my maker I would love to go and look up one of the great artists about who so much has been written, and ask him
what it all meant...


If, dead or alive, he knew what it meant, I doubt he would have been able to sustain an interest sufficient to create what he did in the first place.
The guy was an artist, after all, not a sage.

Message edited by author 2010-12-10 21:08:34.
 03/16/2010 02:56:54 PM · #148
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Come the day when I meet my maker I would love to go and look up one of the great artists about who so much has been written, and ask him
what it all meant...


If, dead or alive, he knew what it meant, I doubt he would have been able to sustain an interest sufficient to create what he did in the first place.
The guy was an artist, after all, no a sage.


I meant his picture not life life the universe and everything lol :)
 03/16/2010 03:04:55 PM · #149
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Lutchenko:
Come the day when I meet my maker I would love to go and look up one of the great artists about who so much has been written, and ask him
what it all meant...


If, dead or alive, he knew what it meant, I doubt he would have been able to sustain an interest sufficient to create what he did in the first place.
The guy was an artist, after all, no a sage.


I meant his picture not life life the universe and everything lol :)


So do I.
 03/16/2010 03:07:00 PM · #150
Filters, people, filters!

Each and every one of us has filters in place that affect our interpretations, reactions to everything we see, hear, and feel. These filters are personal and unique, though others may have similar filters, each of us has unique life experience that contributes to our filter set.

So, just as a red or blue filter can make a red rose appear very bright or very dark in a black and white image, our respective filters can and do dramatically alter our experience of images, art, musicâ€Â¦.

Any idea that any of us as photographers can create an image that will manipulate all or most viewers to have the same, desired response is pure self-delusion. We put our images out there and hope for a certain kind of response. With useful feedback, we can improve our "transmissions" so that the "reception" is closer to intention.

Certain styles/genres of imagery are able to pierce thru filters less-affected than are other types. Some experiences are more "universal". Others are deeply affected by the viewers' filters utterly altering the reception as compared with the image transmitted thru the photographers' filters. There are filters in place on both sides....

The more simple (not simplistic), direct, images may be less susceptible to reception filtering and interpretation differences (the very old soft drink commercial with a little boy surrounded by leaping licking puppies while he laughed in pure delight might be generally received in the same manner--but someone who hates dogs, loves dogs and just lost a puppy, someone who cannot have children, etc, etc. might have different responses even so).

The more complex (not complicated) the image, the more abstract, the more symbol-laden or reference-filled the image, then the more opportunity for incredibly different reception, the more "wildly" varying interpretations and reactions.

So, the more we understand this, the more possibilities exist for us, both as producers of imagery, and as viewers of imagery.

The more we contemplate and understand our own filter-sets, the better we can understand how they affect us, and how we can then choose to apply them or take them off of our internal lenses.

We can also better understand both those viewers who love our work and those who do not. We can understand that viewers may love our work for reasons utterly different than we ourselves love it. We can recognize the futility of trying to force or control responses so that viewers love our work for the same reasons.

If our purpose with any given image is to communicate a message, understanding and allowing for the variances can help us send the message more clearly, with less noise or distractions that can be churned by other filters.

If we view imagery with a better self knowledge of our own filter-sets, we can then better understand why an image works for us, or why it does not. We can also "acquire" new filters and try them out. We can separate ourselves, to some degree, and with some effort, from our own filters and attempt to see the image in a less-filtered way.

We can, if we choose, learn more about the original photographer's filters in terms of his/her history, background, style, and the kinds of references, symbology, they do or do not employ, the things that inspire them, and so forth. This is not necessary or expected, and no one should be told they must do this, but doing so can add to our filter-sets, give us more tools in our tool bags. We might discover a new appreciation for the image, or appreciate an image we previously dismissed (or we may find we suddenly dislike an image that we previously loved).

I find, for myself, that this last approach is the most risky & volatile: there are people out there who insist on describing this in self-aggrandizing terms: "developing sophisticated tastes" and things like that so as to seem (or feel, or both) somehow superior, at the same time defining those who do not as somehow inferior. There is, as a result, a need felt by some to speak of art in the most excruciatingly forced and flagrantly falsified ways ("artspeak") so as to make certain that all know they are superior, and to attempt to impose a way of seeing upon others. Others, quite naturally, rebel against being cast as somehow "inferior".

I recently visited the San Francisco MOMA: my wife and I explored every floor, every nook. It was exhilarating! And it was exhausting. The "oddest" of art (sculptures, paintings, photography) causes such a wide variety of responses: some really Strange Stuff worked very well for me, and some other Similarly Strange Stuff worked not at all. But the only offensive thing (among a lot of "potentially" offensive art) was a tour-guide telling a passing group how a particular, & very abstract, installation "must be seen" in a very self-important way.

Another reason that deeply understanding our own filter-set, and choosing to temporarily attempt to remove or add filters is "risky" is simply what we may or may not learn about ourselves: we might discover a filter in place that has been affecting us all along, and might find that we missed out on a lot of things, or have been communicatiing poorly all along because of it. We might find a filter that we are not proud of, but are also not able or willing to remove. We might try a new filter, find that it shows a completely new interpretation that makes something suddenly more attractive or interesting, but that change makes us uncomfortable.

I think the hardest aspect of this whole thing is this: opening ourselves to other possible interpretations, both in viewing and creating. Changing, adding, removing filters may lead to dramatically different feelings, thoughts, emotions--with all the associated risks. Some of them may not be reversible.

Of course there is No Need At All to study or have a degree or listen to those who proclaim to know more about Art and Merit. No one should be attempting to compel us to do so, and we should not feel inferior (even if they incorrectly attempt to impose that). We need not even be troubled to be introspective with regard to our feelings, our filters. However, it might prove to be worthwhile--or it might not. We might add alternatives to our experience that we are grateful for--or we might not.

I don't see any attempted imposition in this thread (based on my filters) but apparently some do feel imposed upon. This is DPC, after all :-) I should probably insert a link to one of dozes of "how to vote [like I think you should vote, dammit!]" threads here, but I suspect the point is taken without that :-)

If we can make attempts to see something from another perspective, we may learn something interesting at the least, possibly useful to us, but without any requirement to adopt that perspective as part of our own core set.

To paraphrase Ray Bradbury (since I cannot remember it perfectly from, I think, his novel Something Wicked This Way Comes):

"â€Â¦but isn't that the purpose of life? To be able to go around and look out at the world through someone else's eyes and say 'So that's how you see it? Well isn't that interesting! I must remember that!'"

Cheers, and Apologies for the lengthy post....

Message edited by author 2010-03-16 16:27:12.
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