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11/09/2007 12:20:31 PM · #1
Originally posted by ryand:

You are exactly correct. The Roman Catholic Church believes that works are what get us into Heaven. I don't believe that, I know that it is absolutely impossible for me to be good enough to get into Heaven. The only way I'm getting into Heaven is by believing that Jesus died on the cross and accepting His forgiveness.

General E may be correct, but you might want to double check your sources. The RCC teaches that Works without Faith (in "Jesus", presumably), is dead. And then there's those sticky passages from Revelation (22:12) and 2 Corinthians (5:10), both NT scripture last time I checked. In other words, Faith Alone is not enough, according to the Word...
11/09/2007 09:00:51 AM · #2
Originally posted by zxaar:

You said it correctly. I haven't read bible or kuran or even books of my religion. But I understood one fact that if we want to look for the positive from them. They all teach us one thing that is how to be a good human being.

Religious texts tell you how you should live your life, under threat of not getting to paradise when you die if you don't live your life the prescribed way.

Thankfully, modern society allows us to live our life in a moral and decent way without having to fall back on religion as a reference point in the hope we're going to get to Heaven if we've been good enough.
11/08/2007 11:21:52 PM · #3
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by ryand:

I see that this thread can go on forever, with people debating the point or around the point, but i have one thing to explain about the Bible, just so everyone understands this point, because this will clear up an incredible amount of seeming "contradictions" in the Bible...

No, that doesn't do anything to clear up the contradictions. But with or without contradictions, the bible is merely one document in a long litany of documents describing some or other system of belief. And the religions that it describes are only two out of dozens in the historical record, and countless untold others history has forgotten. And your interpretation of what the bible says is one out of myriad others.


You said it correctly. I haven't read bible or kuran or even books of my religion. But I understood one fact that if we want to look for the positive from them. They all teach us one thing that is how to be a good human being.
I am not a religious person and I do believe that as human being I shall be kind to other human beings. And not only to other human beings but to other animals too. This is my religion and I practice this.
And I feel evolution theory or any science does not stop other people to do this.
As far as bible or any other text goes on explaination of what we are and why we are. I feel they will always fail, because they are also written by humans like us. And we are fallible animal.

Can we have more pictures now.

11/08/2007 11:20:53 PM · #4
Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Louis:

So, which part of the bible doesn't condone slavery now?

The parts I quoted.
The New Testament does not APPROVE of slavery, as you say. It merely acknowledges it as something that was practiced AT THE TIME, and proposes that existing slaves be treated humanely and that slaves be obedient to their masters. Christ was NOT an advocate of overthrowing the social orders of the time - including those related to marriage, family, culture, food, religion, etc.

Wait a minute. First, when it was suggested to you without support of quotes that the bible tacitly approved of slavery, you offered quotes seeming to show the reverse (but in my opinion not really). Then, when a slew of quotes were provided that demonstrate in no uncertain terms that the people of the bible not merely approved of, but practiced slavery, including selling their own children into slavery, you suddenly say that, well, yes, the people of the bible practiced it, but clearly the bible tells people how to practice it.

Brrrr.....
11/08/2007 11:10:30 PM · #5
Originally posted by ryand:

I see that this thread can go on forever, with people debating the point or around the point, but i have one thing to explain about the Bible, just so everyone understands this point, because this will clear up an incredible amount of seeming "contradictions" in the Bible...

No, that doesn't do anything to clear up the contradictions. But with or without contradictions, the bible is merely one document in a long litany of documents describing some or other system of belief. And the religions that it describes are only two out of dozens in the historical record, and countless untold others history has forgotten. And your interpretation of what the bible says is one out of myriad others.
11/08/2007 10:33:26 PM · #6
Originally posted by ryand:

... our relationship with Him wasn't just a set of rules, but a loving relationship where we can interact with Him rather than simply having to follow a bunch of old laws.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

The Inquisition seemed to think we should be following a bunch of silly old laws -- or else ...

Originally posted by ryand:

You are exactly correct. The Roman Catholic Church believes that works are what get us into Heaven. I don't believe that, I know that it is absolutely impossible for me to be good enough to get into Heaven. The only way I'm getting into Heaven is by believing that Jesus died on the cross and accepting His forgiveness.

Dude, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and remind myself that being in a religious institution has insulated you from the real world.

And in spite of your youth, you comport yourself pretty well in a discussion.

But you seriously lack time and mileage and you are seriously lacking in real world experience.

The first time you run into someone, get to know them, and find out that the family that seems so normal is a new dynamic after picking up the pieces of a car wreck that took the father and the twin sister of the little girl you know, and that she died in Mom's arms, and you discover that these are the nicest people you've ever met, then all that "God's Will", and "this is not for us to understand" doesn't really mean shit when it strikes down a family who never did one wrong thing in their lives. It's just wrong and it happened.....life goes on.

My wife's father just died unexpectedly, and her mom has Alzheimer's, something really let go when he died, and she's now the nastiest person I know. The mom I knew is gone. In two days time my wife went from having nice loving parents to nothing. Sometimes bad stuff just happens, and that's what we have to live with in our day to day existence.

It's okay to have faith, but I don't for one second after believing that God gave me free will, believe that he's going to stop us from screwing up our lives if we so choose. That's such an arrogant thought that we would be that important. And it seems pretty obvious to me that the measure of our eternal gift will be based on how we act and treat our fellow man, as Jesus taught, not the idolization of the man. That seems to miss the point entirely as I understand what Jesus stood for in the first place. For me, the jury's still out on Jesus, but what I do know is that to me it doesn't matter because it is his lessons that are important, not whether he was/is the son of God or not. So rather than worshipping a dead guy, I'd rather do what I can to help a friend or stranger in need, be good to my fellow man, be as honest and decent as I can, and do my best to be a better person in what I feel to be God's ideal for us. So it's not so much that we do the works, but how we go about it IMO. And I sure as heck can't be that best person I can be by trying to live by a book that's a couple thousand years old, that was translated by any number of people, has more spins on it than a planet, and is used as much for a weapon as it is for good. I feel that the Bible has done more harm than good in the past 2000 years.

You do realize that the breadth of the Inquisition and its related beliefs and consequences spanned more than 700 years, don't you?

And you know what? One thing that God has done, as I see it, is to have gifted us with the intelligence and the inquisitiveness to grow, change, learn, and question everything that is life and to move forward.

But I'm really rambling now. Suffice it to say that I've been through a lot in life, almost died a couple of times, had a lot of really terrific things hapopen and a lot of awful things happen.

But I'm the one who has to live my life, and IMO, God has given me the tools to do so pretty well, so I'll soldier on for a while.....learning, and growing, and making note of the everchanging ways that occur each and every day. And I won't try and contradict what is incontrovertable fact like the timeframe of the dinosaurs based on some screwball belief that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

That'd make me a fool, wouldn't it?

But you do what it is that you feel and believe to be right and I wish you all the luck in the world.

God Bless!
11/08/2007 08:52:30 PM · #7
Originally posted by scalvert:



"Noah way!"

"Yah, weh!

;-)


You're killing me! :-))

LMF(fanny)O

:-P
11/08/2007 07:32:41 PM · #8
I'm sorry, but I'm still cracking up over the thought of baby dinosaurs on a big wooden boat. Seriously, I find that absolutely hilarious.

Of course just explaining how they might fit on the boat doesn't address the question of where they were before, what happened to them after the boat landed, or how they all got to the loading dock in the first place. I mean, all these animals didn't walk from distant continents, and charter boat service wouldn't be available for a few thousand years. I've asked that question before, and the only explanation offered was that the animals either swam or floated on natural rafts. That got me thinking about what such a scene must've looked like. Picture a couple of local guys chatting in a hut back then...

"Dude, yer never gonna believe this..."

"Whuh?"

"Me and Ephraim, we wuz out fishing at the point, and alluva sudden all these crazy animals started driftin by on logs and matted vegetation. I mean, CRAZY animals... stuff you never see around here."

"Noah way!"

"Yah, weh! We saw, like, kangaroos, giant tortoises, polar bears, mooses, dinosaurs, and a couple that looked like ducks with furry butts. I couldn't find them weird things in the Field Guide to Unclean Animals, but Ephraim sez they was prolly just mallardjusted beavers."

"Oh my Zeus... what'd ya do?"

"Well, they wuz all in little pairs, like, so we figgured they wuz prolly aliens going to an invasion or sumthin, and we started whackin as many as we could to sink em."

"Whoa, dude. That's awesome!

"Yah, I think we got all the dinosaurs, and the unicorns, but then it started getting dark, and a coupla skunks drifted in as I wuz beatin the dragons, so we had to stop."

"Oh, man! Well, maybe I can go out tomorrow and help you. I wuz gonna build a deck, but all the Home Depots around here have been backordered on lumber for, like, months."

"I dunno, man, from the looks of them clouds rolling in, we prolly won't get out tomorrow, but we sure could use the rain."

;-)
11/08/2007 07:22:22 PM · #9
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by ryand:

...The only way I'm getting into Heaven is by believing that Jesus died on the cross and accepting His forgiveness.


Does that mean that if I believe at the last minute I'm in... it's gotta be so, he is after all a forgiving God... OK I'll sign up later.

Ray

OOPS... Needed a big G...


Actually yes (technically), however the problem there is that there is no way of knowing what your last minute is. But yes you are correct in the fact that you can "sign up" anytime you want to. God doesn't expect us to be perfect, He just wants us to believe in Him and have a relationship with Him. But probably if you don't want a relationship you aren't going to want one later in life.

Message edited by author 2007-11-08 20:54:05.
11/08/2007 07:15:22 PM · #10
Originally posted by ryand:

...The only way I'm getting into Heaven is by believing that Jesus died on the cross and accepting His forgiveness.


Does that mean that if I believe at the last minute I'm in... it's gotta be so, he is after all a forgiving God... OK I'll sign up later.

Ray

OOPS... Needed a big G...

Message edited by author 2007-11-08 19:16:26.
11/08/2007 06:53:33 PM · #11
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by ryand:

... our relationship with Him wasn't just a set of rules, but a loving relationship where we can interact with Him rather than simply having to follow a bunch of old laws.

The Inquisition seemed to think we should be following a bunch of silly old laws -- or else ...


You are exactly correct. The Roman Catholic Church believes that works are what get us into Heaven. I don't believe that, I know that it is absolutely impossible for me to be good enough to get into Heaven. The only way I'm getting into Heaven is by believing that Jesus died on the cross and accepting His forgiveness.
11/08/2007 06:39:03 PM · #12
Originally posted by ryand:

... our relationship with Him wasn't just a set of rules, but a loving relationship where we can interact with Him rather than simply having to follow a bunch of old laws.

The Inquisition seemed to think we should be following a bunch of silly old laws -- or else ...
11/08/2007 06:15:13 PM · #13
I see that this thread can go on forever, with people debating the point or around the point, but i have one thing to explain about the Bible, just so everyone understands this point, because this will clear up an incredible amount of seeming "contradictions" in the Bible. The Old Testament is all under the Old Covenant between God and man. When He came to earth and died, He broke the Old Covenant, and made a New Covenant with man. The Old Covenant was full of Rules that you had to live by because there wasn't a way for us to completely connect to God. When He died we were offered a connection to God, so that our relationship with Him wasn't just a set of rules, but a loving relationship where we can interact with Him rather than simply having to follow a bunch of old laws.

Message edited by author 2007-11-08 18:15:33.
11/08/2007 06:14:58 PM · #14
Originally posted by goc:

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I hear yaa

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Message edited by L2 - Please see Forum Rule #7.
11/08/2007 06:03:29 PM · #15
Originally posted by scalvert:

There's nothing quite like using evolution to refute those darn evolutionists. ;-)

Yes - that was going to be my response to Ron, but really, what on earth could possibly be the point?
11/08/2007 05:43:37 PM · #16
Originally posted by RonB:

let me just refer you to the Answers in Genesis page that explains how all the requisite animals could have fit into the ark.


Wow! Thanks for that... I may not need another laugh for months! One of my favorite gems:

"Another problem often raised by atheists and theistic evolutionists is ‘how did disease germs survive the flood?’ This is a leading question—it presumes that germs were as specialized and infectious as they are now, so all the Ark’s inhabitants must have been infected with every disease on earth. But germs were probably more robust in the past, and have only fairly recently lost the ability to survive in different hosts or independently of a host."

There's nothing quite like using evolution to refute those darn evolutionists. ;-)
11/08/2007 05:31:26 PM · #17
Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Scalvert:

You also make in plainly obvious that you still don't understand what a scientific theory is.

A scientific theory is a "best guess" based on the evidence available to date.


Nicely demonstrated. "Best guess" is exactly what a scientific theory ISN'T.

Originally posted by RonB:

...it is not beyond belief that IF dinosaurs coexisted with man, AND that the story of Noah is true, that several pairs of pre-pubescent dinosaurs COULD have been kept on the ark.


Mmmph...ack... somebody call 911...giggle... hurry! ;-)

I didn't think anyone with a driver's license still entertained the possibility that titanosaurs and humans ever co-existed (Raquel Welch notwithstanding). Nevertheless, that still doesn't explain why there's not a single mention of lifeforms- from trilobites to mastodons- that dominated most of this planet's history (with remains found on every continent) in a document that purports to explain the creation of life. Instead, this account seems to start with "In the beginning," and then skip straight from page one to contemporary animals of the last chapter.
11/08/2007 05:23:13 PM · #18
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11/08/2007 05:20:25 PM · #19
Originally posted by RonB:

The New Testament does not APPROVE of slavery, as you say. It merely acknowledges it as something that was practiced AT THE TIME, and proposes that existing slaves be treated humanely and that slaves be obedient to their masters.


In other words, "it's immoral to have slaves, but, if you were going to have slaves, here's the moral way to do it"?

(Edited: to make it more relevant to the discussion at hand. (Could have sidetracked things.)

Message edited by author 2007-11-08 17:28:09.
11/08/2007 05:19:25 PM · #20
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by RonB:

On the other hand, it is not beyond belief that IF dinosaurs coexisted with man, AND that the story of Noah is true, that several pairs of pre-pubescent dinosaurs COULD have been kept on the ark.

Whoa. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that. How... erm... unique.

Since we're on this topic, did the ark also hold all ten million species of insects? Or did the fly-y ones just flit around for forty days, so that only about, say, five million species had to be on board?
Rather than engage in a Well, what about? . . .Well, what about?. . .Well, what about? round and round and round - let me just refer you to the Answers in Genesis page that explains how all the requisite animals could have fit into the ark.
11/08/2007 05:16:46 PM · #21
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by RonB:

On the other hand, it is not beyond belief that IF dinosaurs coexisted with man, AND that the story of Noah is true, that several pairs of pre-pubescent dinosaurs COULD have been kept on the ark.

Whoa. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that. How... erm... unique.


Unfortunatly, not unique. Also check out Noah's Ark: A Feasability Study by John Woodmorappe (aka Jan Peczkis).
11/08/2007 05:06:32 PM · #22
Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by RonB:

Scripture says [passages denouncing slavery]

Scripture also says:

And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Gen.9:20-25

But every man's servant that is bought for money.... Ex.12:44

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant.... Ex.20:17

If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. ... and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. Ex.21:2-6

And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master.... Ex.21:7-8

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. Ex.21:20-21

And in case you thought the New Testament did not approve of slavery:

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Eph.6:5

Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. Col.3:22

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. 1 Tim.6:1

Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. Titus 2:10-11

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. 1 Pet.2:18

So, which part of the bible doesn't condone slavery now?

The parts I quoted.
The New Testament does not APPROVE of slavery, as you say. It merely acknowledges it as something that was practiced AT THE TIME, and proposes that existing slaves be treated humanely and that slaves be obedient to their masters.

Christ was NOT an advocate of overthrowing the social orders of the time - including those related to marriage, family, culture, food, religion, etc.
11/08/2007 04:54:25 PM · #23
Originally posted by RonB:

On the other hand, it is not beyond belief that IF dinosaurs coexisted with man, AND that the story of Noah is true, that several pairs of pre-pubescent dinosaurs COULD have been kept on the ark.

Whoa. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that. How... erm... unique.

Since we're on this topic, did the ark also hold all ten million species of insects? Or did the fly-y ones just flit around for forty days, so that only about, say, five million species had to be on board?
11/08/2007 04:49:39 PM · #24
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Scalvert:

Ah, so 100 ton dinosaurs (creatures that moves along the ground) WERE on the Ark alongside woolly mammoths, but simply weren't mentioned. That's priceless. :-)

If you say so.
Because, surely, I didn't.


Did I misunderstand or did you not answer the question? Where exactly do the dinosaurs fit in biblical accounts of history? If you say dinosaurs never existed or were some sort of unproven theory, I'm going to laugh myself into a coma. If you suggest that extinct 100 ton animals were kept on a wooden boat with humans during the worst storm in recorded history, it'll probably result in the same coma. If you claim that the vast majority of biodiversity that ever existed on this planet just popped into existence after humans, without a single historical mention of animals as impressive and unmistakable as an Apatosaur, and then became magically buried under hundreds of feet of rock much older than the earliest evidence of man... well, I'll try to contain my laughter, but the aforementioned coma still looms. Hopefully you have a better explanation. ;-)

1) Dinosaurs did exist
2) Extinct 100-ton animals were NOT kept on a wooden boat with humans during the worst storm in recorded history. On the other hand, it is not beyond belief that IF dinosaurs coexisted with man, AND that the story of Noah is true, that several pairs of pre-pubescent dinosaurs COULD have been kept on the ark. It is "generally accepted" ( Nature 412 ) that dinosaurs exhibited an adolescent "growth spurt". In the case of apatosaurus, the growth spurt is thought to have occurred at about 5 years of age. If a pair of apatosauri were to enter the ark at age 1, they wouldn't hit their growth spurt for another 3-4 years, well after the ark had been unloaded.

11/08/2007 03:58:50 PM · #25
Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by RonB:

Then, too, your arguments are illogical. For example, your argument that the faith of the Aztecs being rooted in deeply held beliefs and carrying their civilization for centuries gives it legitimacy and validity.

That's not what I said. I said the two beliefs were as legitimate as each other, with one not being less valid than the other. It is merely a historical fact that Aztecs had deeply held religious beliefs, and that their very civilization depended on them. In that context, it is irrelevant what those beliefs actually were.

If not meant as support for your position, why did you include that "historical fact"?

Picking on this point mires us in a morass of detail irrelevant to refuting your supposition that faith in God is constant, but I'll humour you.

I say that Aztecs sacrificed children as part of their religious faith. I say that their religious faith is rooted in deeply held beliefs - obviously. Isn't every faith? I say that their practice of sacrifice and religion in general sustained their particular culture, on which their civilization rested, for centuries. You conclude that these statements legitimize and validate those very religious practices. I say byoo-lawx. :-)

Because you have committed a deductive logical fallacy. It went something like this:

Aztecs sacrificed children.
Aztecs had faith that this sacrifice appeased their gods.
Aztecs had other, deeply rooted beliefs based on this faith.
These beliefs were an important part of their culture for centuries.
The sacrifice of the children was therefore legitimate and valid.

[Insert emoticon of a frowny with rolling eyes, all confused - I don't have one.]
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