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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Drawing Muhammad
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09/09/2010 10:23:59 AM · #1
...and the burning of the Qu'ran...to those that are Muslim, is this as big a deal as the media is making it out to be? I ask because we have so many artists here with so many interpretations of right and wrong. While it might not be right, is it something a non-Muslim nation should have the right to do? Should a non-Muslim nation be able to draw Muhammad and then burn the picture without repercussions?? We see everything burned on TV, flags, portraits of leaders past and present...how can you say one is different from the other? Is this a purely an extremist view?
09/09/2010 10:36:46 AM · #2
just saw an NBC report saying it would recruit more Al-Qeda...really?? If someone in some far unknown country (Or known) bought my own personal book, faith or photo, would not get any reaction out of me. Why make a big deal??
09/09/2010 10:40:33 AM · #3
I don't want this to be a debate between what "I believe" and what "you believe"...it really doesn't matter, nobody is going to change faiths via DPchallenge, but I do believe that some people here are smarter than I am when it comes to these things...and I would like to hear from them, Muslim or not...
09/09/2010 10:42:08 AM · #4
It's an interesting paradox. Americans don't react if extremists burn their flags or bibles, but get all upset when there are skyscrapers involved. Whereas Muslims brush off the odd drone attack or invasion of their country, but throw tantrums over a book burning.
09/09/2010 10:46:26 AM · #5
Originally posted by JH:

It's an interesting paradox. Americans don't react if extremists burn their flags or bibles, but get all upset when there are skyscrapers involved. Whereas Muslims brush off the odd drone attack or invasion of their country, but throw tantrums over a book burning.


Americans don't get upset at flag burning? Why is it a law not to burn flags then? It became law when an American burned a flag and got world wide attention for doing it in the 70s, or was it the 80s? Any one remember this?

As for burning a Koran. I agree with the pastor in that Muslims seem to have an agenda of increasing their populace worldwide to expand Islam but burning a Koran will only make things worse. He actually has already sent a message and should stop there. But he's from a state that thinks the next President will be another bush. (no capital B for a bush).

Message edited by author 2010-09-09 10:50:59.
09/09/2010 10:49:04 AM · #6
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by JH:

It's an interesting paradox. Americans don't react if extremists burn their flags or bibles, but get all upset when there are skyscrapers involved. Whereas Muslims brush off the odd drone attack or invasion of their country, but throw tantrums over a book burning.


Americans don't get upset at flag burning? Why is it a law not to burn flags then? It became law when an American burned a flag and got world wide attention for doing it in the 70s, or was it the 80s? Any one remember this?

I'm referring specifically to gangs of Muslims burning American flags over in ... wherever America are upsetting muslims on any given day.

That type of footage never seems to get mentioned or get any response in the US.
09/09/2010 10:56:54 AM · #7
Originally posted by Jac:

Originally posted by JH:

It's an interesting paradox. Americans don't react if extremists burn their flags or bibles, but get all upset when there are skyscrapers involved. Whereas Muslims brush off the odd drone attack or invasion of their country, but throw tantrums over a book burning.


Americans don't get upset at flag burning? Why is it a law not to burn flags then? It became law when an American burned a flag and got world wide attention for doing it in the 70s, or was it the 80s? Any one remember this?

It depends on the spirit of the burning event. When a US flag is retired, it is proper to burn it with ceremony.
If the flag is burned in spite and disrespect, as the event you are talking about, that's a different matter. That is covered by the First Amendment though, as freedom of speech.

This Qu'ran burning is making people more aware of the radicals because of their reaction to it, which is a good thing from my viewpoint.
If they had a Bible burning in Iran, would the world be up in arms and threatening to attack all muslims? Probably not.
09/09/2010 11:26:55 AM · #8
In a perfect world, we would all respect each other.

Failing that, while I do have a quarrel with the extremists, there are many more followers of Islam that have no ill will towards others and have done nothing to deserve that their most sacred beliefs be desecrated. Therefore no images of Muhammed, nor burnings from me.

I refuse to let my disagreement with another lower me to the level I believe they occupy. I refuse to become what I believe you are.
09/09/2010 12:06:20 PM · #9
There are two issues here.

Should he have the right to do it ? Arguably yes - although I can also see that freedom of expression will often be subject to certain limits. The fact that something will cause offence should not be enough to limit freedom of expression. Does this do more than cause offence ? I think it does - I think it is intended to engender hatred. It will cause harm to others. For this reason I would have no problem with the burning being banned (if it were in the UK).

Should he do it ? I cannot think of a more crass, objectionable, inflammatory action. It is indefensible. It raises no awaremess of anything. It is the act of a bigot and an extremist and will be responded to in kind and worse by other bigots and extremists all round the world - thus bigots and extremists set the agenda and the rest of us pick up the pieces and mop up the blood.
09/09/2010 12:12:42 PM · #10
It's interesting, because in this country we do have a category of things called "hate crimes" and they technically override the right to free speech. You can be prosecuted for standing on a street corner and screaming "F*ck all n*gg*rs!" It seems to me this Koran burning is in the same category, that it's a hate crime, that it's tantamount to screaming "F*ck all t*welh*ads and bugger their prophet too!", but what do I know?

R.
09/09/2010 12:19:13 PM · #11
From a purely religious point of view, the burning of the bible I read, or the religious texts I may read, unless actually specified in the book, I would not make any attempt to attack. I do believe the minister who is doing the book burning is doing so for publicity, and the presidents opinion on this matter only makes things for this pastor better. My question is how do you burn the political and religious figures of the west like it was the 4th of July and not expect that a small portion of the world would do something that would be meaningful to you? I love video games and photography but if someone burned a PS3 or a camera WAY out of my budget I would say "As much as I would have wanted this I will do without it. I will do my best to live without it and live in a meaningful way." If a non-Christian or non-Buddhist burns my Holy scriptures, I don't try to organize a crowd to kill this person or people.

In terms of Christianity, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the depiction of Christ and God is actually forbidden. Only since the church recognized the money that could be made with these paintings that it was 'legal' to actually paint anything Holy such as the Last Supper etc. I know even less about Buddhism or stricter forms of Christianity.

The Mosque that is in the process of being built is something I disagree with. I don't care if you are Muslim. This is also a publicity stunt IMO. While it might be legal and therefor out of my power to protest, I think the Mosque would better serve it's religion outside the grounds of 'Ground Zero'. If a church of any kind were to open up in Japan in an area hostile to that faith, I would suggest to it's leaders to move it elsewhere where it could better serve it's people. The same would go for Islam, Buddhism or any other religion.

Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on the Muslims of our DP community, however I don't believe that your religion excludes you from a debate. I don't believe that your religion should scare me from making any protest. If you think my religion is 'this' and you think 'this' then say it, be strong in your commitment and don't back off because of popular belief. Am I a Christian, a Catholic, a Jew or a Buddhist...tell me?? Does it matter...yes...no...does that fact matter??
09/09/2010 12:21:09 PM · #12
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It's interesting, because in this country we do have a category of things called "hate crimes" and they technically override the right to free speech. You can be prosecuted for standing on a street corner and screaming "F*ck all n*gg*rs!" It seems to me this Koran burning is in the same category, that it's a hate crime, that it's tantamount to screaming "F*ck all t*welh*ads and bugger their prophet too!", but what do I know?

R.


In your first example you're attacking a person. In your second example you're attacking a belief system. If those who believe this system are insulted isn't it up to them to use what is written in their belief system and act accordingly? As in tolerance, which most religions seem to want to promote.
09/09/2010 12:30:35 PM · #13
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It's interesting, because in this country we do have a category of things called "hate crimes" and they technically override the right to free speech. You can be prosecuted for standing on a street corner and screaming "F*ck all n*gg*rs!" It seems to me this Koran burning is in the same category, that it's a hate crime, that it's tantamount to screaming "F*ck all t*welh*ads and bugger their prophet too!", but what do I know?

R.


Would you consider burning a bible or dunking a cross in urine a hate crime?
09/09/2010 12:32:10 PM · #14
Originally posted by heavyj:

Am I a Christian, a Catholic, a Jew or a Buddhist...tell me?? Does it matter...yes...no...does that fact matter??

It doesn't matter. If you are a non-Muslim, then to Muslims you are kafir (an infidel) regardless of your religion.
09/09/2010 12:34:03 PM · #15
Originally posted by ambaker:

In a perfect world, we would all respect each other.


Agreed, but I'd go a step further and also say we'd all tolerate each other too.
09/09/2010 12:35:00 PM · #16
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Would you consider burning a bible or dunking a cross in urine a hate crime?


I need to clarify something; it's not the fact that he's burning a Koran, per se, it's the very public way he's going about it, trying to rile people up, trying to create dramatic consequences, that's got me worried. So I'm really just speculating it might fit under that umbrella. I donno. I'm a pretty liberal guy, I pretty much believe in leaving people alone and just controlling your own reactions to them, but...

This is so EXTREME. I donno what to think, honestly.

R.
09/09/2010 12:41:05 PM · #17
If we're going to put the Koran burning in the category of "hate crime", would it, likewise be a hate crime to photograph a crucifix immersed in urine? Seems to be similarly offensive, but I don't see the kooky pastor in Florida getting any NEA grants...

I see Louddog is on a similar line of thinking. I sense double standard in the media with this one. What could be a first amendment issue instead is a hate crime issue.

Message edited by author 2010-09-09 12:42:48.
09/09/2010 12:42:29 PM · #18
Is said kooky pastor acting on artistic impetus, or religious?
09/09/2010 12:43:11 PM · #19
Originally posted by Louis:

Is said kooky pastor acting on artistic impetus, or religious?


I didn't realize the constitution drew a distinction...
09/09/2010 12:45:16 PM · #20
Do what you want to a Bible or a Cross...I live in Japan and in this country, at least, you can do this without being put on TV. I too believe that the pastor is looking for attention. I wish he weren't. The media on the left and right are responsible for enabling this person. However, if the entire country of Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan were to hold a meeting, a day where they would dunk or a cross into anything...or a Bible...anything non-violent, let them do so. I doubt you would see much hostility from this part of the world, or any other religion. I hate it when one religion becomes 'taboo' to talk about...
09/09/2010 12:45:46 PM · #21
Who said anything about the constitution? You asked if he was getting an arts grant in the same way that Serrano got one for "Piss Christ", and wondered if art was as much a hate crime as religious expression. I answered (in the best way I could) that religious expression is usually much more hateful and exclusionary than art.
09/09/2010 12:46:58 PM · #22
Originally posted by Louis:

Is said kooky pastor acting on artistic impetus, or religious?


Does one make the act better or less offensive then the other?

If said kooky pastor was a kooky artist would all be okay?

The artist that called for a draw muhammad day, the cartoonist that drew muhammad, and the south park guys would say no.
09/09/2010 12:48:55 PM · #23
It's not a like for like comparison - A crucifix in urine might be as equally insulting to Christians as burning a Koran or drawing a cartoon of Muhammed would be to Muslims.

However... It's the reaction of either party which is the issue. We saw how irrational the Muslims in Europe were over the cartoons of Muhammed; out on the streets screaming, waving banners and demanding the heads of the infidels on a plate. I can't see a bunch of Christians acting the same way if they were similarly offended.

So, what is it about muslims? Where does their irrationality come from, that makes us so afraid of offending them? - Is it that they've got a chip on their shoulder? That they feel so hard-done-by that they use any excuse to act all offended and get out on the streets baying for blood?
09/09/2010 12:49:28 PM · #24
Originally posted by Louis:

Who said anything about the constitution? You asked if he was getting an arts grant in the same way that Serrano got one for "Piss Christ", and wondered if art was as much a hate crime as religious expression. I answered (in the best way I could) that religious expression is usually much more hateful and exclusionary than art.


The NEA comment was a sarcastic one. The point is to draw similar lines between an action that is viewed as highly offensive to a sectarian portion of the public. The secondary point is to draw distinctions between how the media is portraying each story. Personally I don't see a distinction between the two actions and if you embrace one you embrace the other. If you reject one, you reject the other.

My opinion, I think both actions are completely unhelpful. I'm waffling on whether or not I agree with Voltaire.
09/09/2010 12:49:38 PM · #25
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by LoudDog:

Would you consider burning a bible or dunking a cross in urine a hate crime?


I need to clarify something; it's not the fact that he's burning a Koran, per se, it's the very public way he's going about it, trying to rile people up, trying to create dramatic consequences, that's got me worried. So I'm really just speculating it might fit under that umbrella. I donno. I'm a pretty liberal guy, I pretty much believe in leaving people alone and just controlling your own reactions to them, but...

This is so EXTREME. I donno what to think, honestly.

R.


Why would burning a koran be any more extreme the burning a bible?
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