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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Fishy results in the Weston challenge
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04/08/2011 01:07:00 PM · #101
Originally posted by Neil:

It can take 2-3 days to validate a photo (also depending on when we get it). We have a number of problems in this challenge however, and we have chosen to do it in one "recalc".

(ETA: In general, if a photo is borderline legal/illegal, it can take longer to validate while we discuss it and try to reach consensus.)


Thanks for the update Neil - I was wondering why it was taking so long. It probably wouldn't be a great idea to just DQ the Blue and post the results only to have to post another revised list of ribbon winners after a recalc when the illegal votes are scrubbed.

Message edited by author 2011-04-08 13:07:41.
04/08/2011 01:15:57 PM · #102
Originally posted by vawendy:

I know that I wasn't able to submit my validation until later last night. They might not have received the validations until very recently.

So it is all your fault - get the pitch forks everyone :-)
04/08/2011 01:31:30 PM · #103
Originally posted by Silent-Shooter:

Originally posted by vawendy:

I know that I wasn't able to submit my validation until later last night. They might not have received the validations until very recently.

So it is all your fault - get the pitch forks everyone :-)


I'm not afraid of art!!!

Oh wait, yes I am!
04/08/2011 02:14:29 PM · #104
Wow, I missed all the excitement... and OMG "She who shall not be mentioned" is all over the place, She forged accounts on the Hallmark Card contests,not to mention passed around evil emails about other contestand entrants. I almost yaked when I saw that she had already done her stuff on here... WOW evil don't give it a rest!

I have to give [user]danokeys[/user] some kudos, he had good eyes on the Weston challenge, telling me my dof and crop weren't in the Weston style, as did several other commentators, and they were all SO right....
04/08/2011 03:23:08 PM · #105
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I believe, and I may be off base here, but I believe that the take-home from this is that "emulate the masters" challenges should be for paid members only, because I think they are a little more likely to vote this kind of challenge thoughtfully. It doesn't feel like a majority of the voters in this challenge really understood what makes a Weston special.

R.


Seconded. Or thirded, or however many times he's been agreed with on this point, I agree with him on it again.
04/08/2011 03:27:29 PM · #106
I still think the results should be pulled until the SC has it sorted and recalculated. Then post them and leave them for a week. Leaving the current results up is not good for the site.
04/08/2011 06:27:22 PM · #107
Originally posted by bohemka:

I still think the results should be pulled until the SC has it sorted and recalculated. Then post them and leave them for a week. Leaving the current results up is not good for the site.

I agree with this statement. Too much time has now elapsed. If there are going to be DQs based on rules violations (known for days), then the display on the front page, or other display of ill-gotten placement in the regular standings, should have been truncated before now.
04/08/2011 07:24:31 PM · #108
Originally posted by bohemka:

I still think the results should be pulled until the SC has it sorted and recalculated. Then post them and leave them for a week. Leaving the current results up is not good for the site.

Originally posted by hahn23:

I agree with this statement. Too much time has now elapsed. If there are going to be DQs based on rules violations (known for days), then the display on the front page, or other display of ill-gotten placement in the regular standings, should have been truncated before now.

I'm usually very much in SC's court with their processes and thankless job, but that first place image up on Facebook for all the world to see is pretty much of a disgrace. It'd be nice to see the display of that challenge pulled 'til it's sorted out.....
04/08/2011 07:27:16 PM · #109
Originally posted by skewsme:

it's kinda weird that the troll votes made it through the scrubber in the first place


Well, the scrubber doesn't eliminate ALL troll votes. Who knows how the algorithm is designed, but I'm sure it weights SOME high and low votes against the mean average, and decides which votes to drop. It has to take into account that some votes..when even against the voting trend for that particular shot can be seen as valid. Obviously people do have different tastes, and for some...a shot that most gave a 5 their are others who are really going to either love it or hate it and score it accordingly.

The biggest wrench in the gears that throws people off when looking at the scrubber and their final votes is not having a way to know how many points or votes were lost due to people not meeting the 20 percent minimum for voting on challenges. So that nice 10 you thought you had disappears if the voter who gave it to you voted on less photos than required to make ALL their votes count. Sometimes the scrubber doesn't eliminate any votes, but you THINK it did when you lose votes that could have been helpful to you...or hurt you for that matter. So let's hope that people who vote low never meet the minimum requirements LOL.

So, yes...it would really be nice to have that count separated from the scrubber adjustment. You could have your scrubber adjusted score...if any changes reflected, and also know somewhere on your photo page how many points and votes were lost due to voters not voting the required percentage of shots. Would be nice, but wishful thinking I'm sure.

Dave
04/08/2011 08:31:52 PM · #110
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by bohemka:

I still think the results should be pulled until the SC has it sorted and recalculated. Then post them and leave them for a week. Leaving the current results up is not good for the site.

Originally posted by hahn23:

I agree with this statement. Too much time has now elapsed. If there are going to be DQs based on rules violations (known for days), then the display on the front page, or other display of ill-gotten placement in the regular standings, should have been truncated before now.

I'm usually very much in SC's court with their processes and thankless job, but that first place image up on Facebook for all the world to see is pretty much of a disgrace. It'd be nice to see the display of that challenge pulled 'til it's sorted out.....

SC members don't have access to the site which would enable removing the results temporarily. This has been mentioned in the SC discussion thread, but must await the boss' personal attention.
04/08/2011 08:46:09 PM · #111
I guess the no.1 photo is the one in question? Why?
04/08/2011 08:54:15 PM · #112
Originally posted by David Ey:

I guess the no.1 photo is the one in question? Why?


Same image on Facebook in January....
04/08/2011 08:55:30 PM · #113
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by David Ey:

I guess the no.1 photo is the one in question? Why?


Same image on Facebook in January....

And, a Lithuanian photo website in January. //fotokudra.lt/img.php?img=386885&nav=aut&page=
It shouldn't have had to come to this.

Message edited by author 2011-04-08 20:55:47.
04/08/2011 10:17:14 PM · #114
For me, the strangest thing about that blue ribbon image is that it doesn't resemble, or call to mind, Edward Weston's work in any way at all. The tonalities are wrong, the pose is wrong, the light is wrong, the makeup would have been anathema to EW, and he'd never have used the props (flowers) because they just *reek* of the pictorialist tradition the f/64 group was breaking away from. It's about as un-Weston as any image entered in the challenge.

So how did it win? What were the voters thinking? I was stunned when I looked at the front page after rollover, I couldn't believe it.

I mean, it's a nice portrait and all, but it absolutely is not responsive to the challenge...

R.
04/08/2011 10:33:14 PM · #115
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

For me, the strangest thing about that blue ribbon image is that it doesn't resemble, or call to mind, Edward Weston's work in any way at all. The tonalities are wrong, the pose is wrong, the light is wrong, the makeup would have been anathema to EW, and he'd never have used the props (flowers) because they just *reek* of the pictorialist tradition the f/64 group was breaking away from. It's about as un-Weston as any image entered in the challenge.

So how did it win? What were the voters thinking? I was stunned when I looked at the front page after rollover, I couldn't believe it.

I mean, it's a nice portrait and all, but it absolutely is not responsive to the challenge...

R.


+1 I even braved it an went without makeup for my self portrait. I looked though most of his portraits and with the exception of a few they were wearing little to no make-up, and not adorned in anyway.
04/08/2011 10:48:04 PM · #116
Originally posted by sjhuls:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

For me, the strangest thing about that blue ribbon image is that it doesn't resemble, or call to mind, Edward Weston's work in any way at all. The tonalities are wrong, the pose is wrong, the light is wrong, the makeup would have been anathema to EW, and he'd never have used the props (flowers) because they just *reek* of the pictorialist tradition the f/64 group was breaking away from. It's about as un-Weston as any image entered in the challenge.

So how did it win? What were the voters thinking? I was stunned when I looked at the front page after rollover, I couldn't believe it.

I mean, it's a nice portrait and all, but it absolutely is not responsive to the challenge...

R.


+1 I even braved it an went without makeup for my self portrait. I looked though most of his portraits and with the exception of a few they were wearing little to no make-up, and not adorned in anyway.


I agree with you Bear as to the un-Weston characteristics of the blue ribbon portrait. Lovely as it is, after looking at hundreds of Weston images, it did not strike me as anything resembling his style.

Jennifer, yours was a wonderful example of Weston's style and should be in the top 10 at the very least!
04/08/2011 10:56:29 PM · #117
Originally posted by mycelium:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I believe, and I may be off base here, but I believe that the take-home from this is that "emulate the masters" challenges should be for paid members only, because I think they are a little more likely to vote this kind of challenge thoughtfully. It doesn't feel like a majority of the voters in this challenge really understood what makes a Weston special.

R.


Seconded. Or thirded, or however many times he's been agreed with on this point, I agree with him on it again.


So you are implying that paid members can vote more thoughtfully and understand the challenge better?
04/08/2011 10:58:17 PM · #118
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

For me, the strangest thing about that blue ribbon image is that it doesn't resemble, or call to mind, Edward Weston's work in any way at all. The tonalities are wrong, the pose is wrong, the light is wrong, the makeup would have been anathema to EW, and he'd never have used the props (flowers) because they just *reek* of the pictorialist tradition the f/64 group was breaking away from. It's about as un-Weston as any image entered in the challenge.

So how did it win? What were the voters thinking? I was stunned when I looked at the front page after rollover, I couldn't believe it.

I mean, it's a nice portrait and all, but it absolutely is not responsive to the challenge...

R.


When has meeting the challenge ever mattered here at DPC?
04/08/2011 11:04:57 PM · #119
Originally posted by JustinM:

Originally posted by mycelium:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I believe, and I may be off base here, but I believe that the take-home from this is that "emulate the masters" challenges should be for paid members only, because I think they are a little more likely to vote this kind of challenge thoughtfully. It doesn't feel like a majority of the voters in this challenge really understood what makes a Weston special.

R.


Seconded. Or thirded, or however many times he's been agreed with on this point, I agree with him on it again.


So you are implying that paid members can vote more thoughtfully and understand the challenge better?


I think that's pretty much what the evidence points to. The more serious members are likely to take the time to research the topic before casting their votes, as they, um, well, are more serious about this sort of thing. Some of those more serious members are certainly just registered users, but there are also many registered users who are much more casual about the whole thing. When it comes to paid members, you can pretty much count on the fact that their average investment and interest in this whole DPC thing is much higher, and as such, they are more likely to research the challenge themes more thoroughly on this sort of "emulate the masters" challenge. Bear is spot on..

04/08/2011 11:11:17 PM · #120
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by JustinM:

Originally posted by mycelium:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I believe, and I may be off base here, but I believe that the take-home from this is that "emulate the masters" challenges should be for paid members only, because I think they are a little more likely to vote this kind of challenge thoughtfully. It doesn't feel like a majority of the voters in this challenge really understood what makes a Weston special.

R.


Seconded. Or thirded, or however many times he's been agreed with on this point, I agree with him on it again.


So you are implying that paid members can vote more thoughtfully and understand the challenge better?


I think that's pretty much what the evidence points to. The more serious members are likely to take the time to research the topic before casting their votes, as they, um, well, are more serious about this sort of thing. Some of those more serious members are certainly just registered users, but there are also many registered users who are much more casual about the whole thing. When it comes to paid members, you can pretty much count on the fact that their average investment and interest in this whole DPC thing is much higher, and as such, they are more likely to research the challenge themes more thoroughly on this sort of "emulate the masters" challenge. Bear is spot on..


Yeah I think I agree with this... And Robert makes an excellent point! By limiting it to more serious members, hopefully you'd be able to get more serious voters. I wish everyone that votes/enters would really take some time to study a specific topic, and definitely a tribute challenge.
04/09/2011 02:26:49 AM · #121
Originally posted by JustinM:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by JustinM:

Originally posted by mycelium:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I believe, and I may be off base here, but I believe that the take-home from this is that "emulate the masters" challenges should be for paid members only, because I think they are a little more likely to vote this kind of challenge thoughtfully. It doesn't feel like a majority of the voters in this challenge really understood what makes a Weston special.

R.


Seconded. Or thirded, or however many times he's been agreed with on this point, I agree with him on it again.


So you are implying that paid members can vote more thoughtfully and understand the challenge better?


I think that's pretty much what the evidence points to. The more serious members are likely to take the time to research the topic before casting their votes, as they, um, well, are more serious about this sort of thing. Some of those more serious members are certainly just registered users, but there are also many registered users who are much more casual about the whole thing. When it comes to paid members, you can pretty much count on the fact that their average investment and interest in this whole DPC thing is much higher, and as such, they are more likely to research the challenge themes more thoroughly on this sort of "emulate the masters" challenge. Bear is spot on..


Yeah I think I agree with this... And Robert makes an excellent point! By limiting it to more serious members, hopefully you'd be able to get more serious voters. I wish everyone that votes/enters would really take some time to study a specific topic, and definitely a tribute challenge.


Also, you wouldn't have this kind of voter mess where accounts are made to just score 1s. Because who wants to spend that much money on different accounts? Not many, I wager
04/09/2011 10:57:51 AM · #122
I responded to this idea earlier. I'm still relatively new here, so I don't have the experience observing participation/voting quality of paid vs non-paid members. Reading over the forums some, it seems clear to me that there have been issues with groups of students and with she who will not be named. And sure it looks like there have been some spurts of mischievous activity by one or more folks at a time using free accounts.

But, reading over the forums and doing by best to analyze entries comparing paid vs non-paid status and correlating that with how seriously/effectively/accurately folks took on the Weston challenge, I'm not convinced that there is a problem where non-paid members ruin "in the style of" challenges. There is a problem where dishonest people do stuff they shouldn't. I think the damage is no more in the "in the style of" challenges vs, say, challenges like Chips or Birds in Flight.

Meanwhile, I am taking this all in in the context of the winning entry as voted on this site was not very Westony in the first place (according to my assessment as well as a couple of others on this thread). I saw a comment earlier implying that it is not necessarily important to DPC for entries to match the challenge. I voted and commented very much from the perspective of the challenge as a non-paid member. I invite anyone to look at a few of my many comments on this challenge and explain to me why I shouldn't have entered. Even my inferior entry would only need to be taken with focus adjusted to make it a decent entry. Again, the one that won would have to be reconsidered from scratch to make it a good entry for the Weston challenge (although I have to admit I find it to be an amazingly good portrait and that I love it).

So, I feel like I'm getting mixed messages. "Non-paid members bring down 'in the style of' challenges because they don't take the time to research," versus "We vote high for great photographs regardless of how well they match the challenge."

I mentioned earlier that if the challenges offered to non-paid members are stripped down, I may lose interest in this site and drift away. Meanwhile, I am very motivated by the site within the confines of the non-paid challenges so far; and I may grow with this community and decide to upgrade to paid (I have been encouraged to do so by some paid members already). I am not ready to take that leap yet, though.

If there is compelling data that suggests that non-paid members in general detract from 'in the style of' challenges *in particular*, then I will just accept that I am (in my opinion) an exception. I am definitely not convinced.

-Dan
04/09/2011 11:18:00 AM · #123
Originally posted by danonkeys:



If there is compelling data that suggests that non-paid members in general detract from 'in the style of' challenges *in particular*, then I will just accept that I am (in my opinion) an exception. I am definitely not convinced.

-Dan


Several "Paid Members" were suspended/Banned/removed of varying degrees for friend voting, vote fixing, free accounts and such. This instance just happens to be from mostly(maybe all) free members. Sadly they let some of them people back on the site. Luckily some never chose to come back.

04/09/2011 06:37:52 PM · #124
I just saw it ! Come on...the DPC photo should have been DQ'd and pulled from the front page in 30 seconds !

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by David Ey:

I guess the no.1 photo is the one in question? Why?


Same image on Facebook in January....
04/09/2011 07:09:16 PM · #125
A lot of people are either not reading the whole thread or are missing the point. It wasn't just about the blue winner being DQ'ed. It was also about questionable voting practices that needed extra time to investigate. There was no logic in pulling the image, re-posting results, then investigating the voting, and recalculating the results...again.

It was ALL taken care of at the same time so the results only had to be recalculated ONCE.

With that said...even if the shooting date was obvious to all including the SC I believe they still go through the formal process of requesting validation shots to be uploaded. This covers all the bases, and of course the photographer has a time period to do so.

Dave
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