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08/06/2011 10:32:05 AM · #1
Now that America has lost it's AAA credit rating, who thinks America is no longer a superpower ?
I may or may not comment, I really just want to find out how everyone feels about the economic crisis now occuring before our eyes are people starting to panic, how is the general consensus of the people.
08/06/2011 11:30:45 AM · #2
You could look at it as an historic event, but I think not. The real question, IMO, is whether we deserved the AAA rating for some time. While the markets reacted strongly, in fact nothing has really changed. Perhaps the rating now more accurately reflects that there is an economic crisis in progress, not just in the US but elsewhere as well. As such, there is more risk than in more stable times.
08/06/2011 11:39:03 AM · #3
I have to agree with kirbic. The rating system is a sham, anyway. If the US (and other governments that are in serious debt) can enjoy the top credit rating in such a financial situation, I'll take them with a grain of salt, thank you.
08/06/2011 12:49:12 PM · #4
Ditto the above. Somebody was getting paid well, or blackmailed to say " AAA " for a long time. The situation finally became obvious enough that S&P would completely lose it's cred if it continued to say it so they had to drop it down a notch.
08/06/2011 01:50:10 PM · #5
Of course the United States is still a super power. If all it took was a drop in it's so called credit rating to change that status it would have been done many years ago.

There is a lot to being a super power then just that such as being the worlds strongest military, world wide political influence, a large world wide economy, technology, the Arts, etc.

To think that the US went from a being a super power over night to not being one because of the swipe of a pen is pretty silly, and I'm sure wishful thinking on the part of some.

Dave

Message edited by author 2011-08-06 13:51:51.
08/06/2011 02:35:02 PM · #6
Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

Of course the United States is still a super power. If all it took was a drop in it's so called credit rating to change that status it would have been done many years ago.

There is a lot to being a super power then just that such as being the worlds strongest military, world wide political influence, a large world wide economy, technology, the Arts, etc.

To think that the US went from a being a super power over night to not being one because of the swipe of a pen is pretty silly, and I'm sure wishful thinking on the part of some.

Dave


Ditto
08/06/2011 02:41:02 PM · #7
Originally posted by dswann:

Originally posted by DCNUTTER:

Of course the United States is still a super power. If all it took was a drop in it's so called credit rating to change that status it would have been done many years ago.

There is a lot to being a super power then just that such as being the worlds strongest military, world wide political influence, a large world wide economy, technology, the Arts, etc.

To think that the US went from a being a super power over night to not being one because of the swipe of a pen is pretty silly, and I'm sure wishful thinking on the part of some.

Dave


Ditto


Ditto, A super power with bad credit.......:)
08/06/2011 03:04:04 PM · #8
I watched my beloved country of birth decay most of my life (I'm a '66). I have said for many years the US peaked during the Apollo days.
It just took a few decades for the bad to catch up, so far ahead the nation had once been. This is my third year away, and I can not
feel I made a mistake so far. Clinton balanced the budget and there was all that BS talk about a dreaded surplus so they gave the farm to the rich
and their corporate friends who sell campaign donations as if they were heroin to the politician junkies. Obama plans to spend a Billion dollars on a
election campaign, that is whats wrong with America. How can any of them listen to the people, the poor people, when they are so busy being whores for money?
08/06/2011 03:46:23 PM · #9
There is a Dave Ramsey quote being passed around Facebook now (I believe paraphrased from here) that says:

"If the US Government was a family, they would be making $58,000 a year, they spend $75,000 a year, & are $327,000 in credit card debt. They are currently proposing BIG spending cuts to reduce their spending to $72,000 a year. These are the actual proportions of the federal budget & debt, reduced to a level that we can understand."

ETA: I commented on a friend's post that the policy maker's IQs were below normal by the exact same proportions.

Message edited by author 2011-08-06 15:51:00.
08/06/2011 03:50:36 PM · #10
I am always amazed how Americans cannot see the problem with their country. To me it is like the fall of the Roman Empire. Once almighty then totally gone. Same as the British Empire. I agree the S&P and other rating systems are unimportant, just a small measure of a symptom. America has now not just economic but also political crisis at its core. I don't believe it can go away. The poverty in the USA is shocking. The political system is a circus. I just can't believe the Americans cannot see the problem. Unfortunately since the American consumption has driven the world economy for most of the 20th century the rest of the world will suffer from America's fall. Let's just hope that China can replace America as the world's biggest superpower and consumer. Sorry that it sounds so pessimistic but I no longer believe that Americans can fix the problem with their country. The events of the past few years have proven so.

I am sure I will be blasted for saying this. But as an outside observer directly affected by America's crisis by having lost a lot of our retirement money since 2008 I believe I have the right to say this. To our American friends - wake up and see that you are poor and driven by a totally ineffective political system. It is a crisis in which only the few rich people will win, everybody else will lose, including most people of Australia (and Europe).

Ha! So sad. I am expecting a lot of denial in response. That's the American Way.
08/06/2011 03:54:32 PM · #11


Originally posted by MargaretN:

I am always amazed how Americans cannot see the problem with their country. To me it is like the fall of the Roman Empire.


It's funny you should post this. After reading this thread initially, I commented to my wife that the only people who can't see the current fall of America as a power, never mind a Superpower, are the Americans.

Unfortunately I think you are correct in your second point too, the world economies are going to be driven now by China, India and other emerging markets.
08/06/2011 03:56:22 PM · #12
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' MargaretN, I totally agree. It's downright frightening.

It's possible that such a drastic change in the past 100 years in technology, culture and economy would cause the economy to get "top-heavy" and collapse back down, but it seems that the whole world has so drastically improved in the past 100 years that it would be impossible to go back down.

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but such rapid advances will and do require a shift in the "old" economy, and perhaps this is that shift.

ETA, what's frightening is not that it's happening, but that so many in power seem to oblivious to it, or in denial. It's beyond partisan politics and well into raw stupidity.

Message edited by author 2011-08-06 15:58:09.
08/06/2011 04:42:18 PM · #13
Corruption is deadly to the free market concept. In the USA they "legalized" corrupt acts so its no longer illegal corruption,
but some odd form of legal corruption that has eaten the bottom from the nation like rust on a boat.

The truth is money is a shell game that can be manipulated when you have enough of it in one place or set of hands. With one million to use
as an investment, the interest on even a simple bond will be more than most people earn a year at a job, $50,000 a year at 5%.
So the rich are mathematically in economic orbit at birth, its a question of want, greed and waste not one of need that drives them to invest.

I'm all for wealth, but the fact that hedge fund managers making literally more than a Billion dollars a year pay under 12% in taxes is not just wrong,
it is breaking the system itself and may just expose money as the social agreement that it is, worthless paper that means nothing but intent.
Zimbabwe recently showed what currency is actually worth: much, much less than a single skinny chicken.

America's decline is completely self inflicted, there is nothing structurally wrong with the nation, they just changed many laws that used to regulate
and prevent some of this, the banking collapse goes directly back to repeal of laws in place since the Great Depression, with both parties leading in gutting.
08/06/2011 04:58:50 PM · #14
America and the world are too far displaced from some of the economic events of America's history such as the Great Depression and the oil crisis of the 70's. Don't count America out just yet. We are capable of great things. We are second to none in innovation and this is what sets us apart. Keep in mind - we are the REASON that countries like China and India are succeeding in the world economy. What will happen if companies like Apple stop sourcing their iPads, iPhones and iPods to China for manufacturing? We are the superpower we have always been. It is serious that our credit rating has dropped, but this has nothing to do with our perceived "failure" of our political system. Actually, this system is what makes us great. We simply have a generation of young people that are voting right now that do not know the pain of the past and how to properly vote. However, with the downgrade and the poor job market, the young people will begin to feel the pinch and will have to make life changes they are not used to. This will cause them to take their voting responsibilities very seriously and will change the face of our representatives and this will fix our current issues over time. We do have time. This, too, shall pass. Keep your eyes open, America is coming back.
08/06/2011 05:03:20 PM · #15
What to say? Nothing new under the sun? Still I have the appalling feeling that we (my generation) have raised a brave new batch of moral imbeciles.

edited for grammar, alas.

Message edited by author 2011-08-06 17:03:57.
08/06/2011 05:06:09 PM · #16
Originally posted by amsterdamman:


I'm all for wealth, but the fact that hedge fund managers making literally more than a Billion dollars a year pay under 12% in taxes is not just wrong,
it is breaking the system itself and may just expose money as the social agreement that it is, worthless paper that means nothing but intent.


Remember why we broke away from the Mother country to begin with? Taxation without representation. Most of our taxes were designed to be sunset when they were created to begin with. We have forgotten that over the years. Taxes were put in place to help us with national projects like the railroads, telephones, etc.

There is nothing wrong with personal wealth - America is the land of opportunity. Just because I have a large personal wealth does not mean that I did not earn it and should be punished any more than those that earn less than me. In fact, the wealthy create jobs. The wealthy work to create more wealth and they do so by taking risks and investing their wealth in order to do so.
08/06/2011 05:11:44 PM · #17
Originally posted by tnun:

What to say? Nothing new under the sun? Still I have the appalling feeling that we (my generation) have raised a brave new batch of moral imbeciles.


I agree that our greatest generation (which you are part of) has contributed to the failures of the present generation. HOWEVER, you were sheltering your children and grandchildren from the pain and anxiety of your past. You wanted for them to have all the things you couldn't have when growing up. The important thing to remember, though, is that this country was built on the backs of your generation! We have to get back to that way of thinking.
08/06/2011 05:12:34 PM · #18
Originally posted by stupidcat:

America and the world are too far displaced from some of the economic events of America's history such as the Great Depression and the oil crisis of the 70's. Don't count America out just yet. We are capable of great things. We are second to none in innovation and this is what sets us apart. Keep in mind - we are the REASON that countries like China and India are succeeding in the world economy. What will happen if companies like Apple stop sourcing their iPads, iPhones and iPods to China for manufacturing? We are the superpower we have always been. It is serious that our credit rating has dropped, but this has nothing to do with our perceived "failure" of our political system. Actually, this system is what makes us great. We simply have a generation of young people that are voting right now that do not know the pain of the past and how to properly vote. However, with the downgrade and the poor job market, the young people will begin to feel the pinch and will have to make life changes they are not used to. This will cause them to take their voting responsibilities very seriously and will change the face of our representatives and this will fix our current issues over time. We do have time. This, too, shall pass. Keep your eyes open, America is coming back.

This is exactly why I am so worried. Your manufacturing industry has been shipped to China. Your R&D is being shipped to India. Your government is bankrupt. What kind of jobs are left for young Americans?
08/06/2011 05:21:14 PM · #19
Originally posted by MargaretN:


This is exactly why I am so worried. Your manufacturing industry has been shipped to China. Your R&D is being shipped to India. Your government is bankrupt. What kind of jobs are left for young Americans?


I want you to be worried. It is my hope that our young people will be worried. This red flag of worry will cause us all to take a good long look at our responsibilities as voters. There are honest and capable people left in our country that can turn this around. We need to feel the pain first in order to know that change has to happen. As I said, though, if we are not here to fund the manufacturing in China that we sent there, or to fund the R&D in India (that we sent there), then those economies also fail. So instead of betting against us Americans, the world over should be praying for us to succeed. Do this, and the world benefits.

We need smaller Government. We need to stop with the entitlements and go back to being the land of opportunity and not the land of hand outs. We need to regain our manufacturing and infuse our innovation and exercise our R&D activities. We have to stop the madness and we will recover. Uncontrolled spending by our Government has driven us to where we are. Spending has to stop.

We are on the verge of recovery here - educating our young people who vote on the errors of their ways and they are beginning to feel the pinch. It is true they don't have jobs, but this is what they need to see and feel in order to adjust their personal power in the voting booths. This will go a long way to fixing what is broke in America.

Message edited by author 2011-08-06 17:21:33.
08/06/2011 05:28:46 PM · #20
Originally posted by stupidcat:

We are on the verge of recovery here - educating our young people who vote on the errors of their ways and they are beginning to feel the pinch. It is true they don't have jobs, but this is what they need to see and feel in order to adjust their personal power in the voting booths. This will go a long way to fixing what is broke in America.

Who should they vote for? Tea Party? Sorry but I am being a bit ironic here :/ I wish I had your confidence.

Now I'd better worry what to do with whatever is left of our retirement money. Put it in cash? Cash has performed much better in the past 7 years than any investment involving shares or property. But all banking is now securitized so you just can't win :( A rather frightening future.
08/06/2011 05:48:00 PM · #21
Originally posted by MargaretN:


Who should they vote for? Tea Party? Sorry but I am being a bit ironic here :/ I wish I had your confidence.

Now I'd better worry what to do with whatever is left of our retirement money. Put it in cash? Cash has performed much better in the past 7 years than any investment involving shares or property. But all banking is now securitized so you just can't win :( A rather frightening future.


I am not a supporter of the Tea Party - instead, I believe in the two parties we have - we simply need to send a message by choosing representatives that closely match our concerns and beliefs. If we have a problem with finding people to match our base to represent us, we should NOT start a new party - simply fix the one we already have. I do have confidence. I can certainly understand your concern and sympethize with your pain. I wish you had not lost your retirement and I hope we course-correct soon and contribute your gains. Much luck and good wishes to you. I would love to go to Australia with my camera at my side! :)
08/06/2011 06:11:48 PM · #22
Im preparing for the worst actually. Im just hoping that I can get through my mechanical engineering degree before it happens. I figure it will come in handy if all hell breaks loose and the infrastructure fails. :)

I sound like im crazy and paranoid, but it just seems like more than just a possibility, it seems like it WILL happen eventually.

08/06/2011 07:19:23 PM · #23
Originally posted by stupidcat:


I am not a supporter of the Tea Party - instead, I believe in the two parties we have - we simply need to send a message by choosing representatives that closely match our concerns and beliefs.

Well you'll never find that in a two-party system. False dichotomy.

Edit to clean up the quote.

Message edited by author 2011-08-06 19:19:58.
08/06/2011 07:40:41 PM · #24
Both parties are sick to the core, afflicted by the illness called 'the establishment'. Individuals in power (from either party) behave firstly as members of the ruling class and only secondly as representatives of the people. They are much more concerned about their own political futures (such as their chances of being re-elected over and over) than they are about the long term health (and even survival) of our nation. Last week's 'deal' is only the latest example of a 'stick up' perpetrated by BOTH parties against the rest of us. Don't you think the great majority of citizens would like to mandate that budgets be balanced? but not our ruling class, they know 'better'. I am finding it harder and harder to accept ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' stupidcat's optimism regarding our ability to reform/rehabilitate/cure the existing parties.
08/06/2011 09:01:08 PM · #25
All these comments are very interesting, but is anyone noticing Europe, especially Germany !
Are the Americans aware of the power shift thats happening around the globe.
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