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12/21/2011 03:15:35 AM · #1
Voting bar here set very high because of very high quality photos published over the years. So, once we went "WOW?" for some photos, we now go "Meh".

I suggest that we should have "Starters" challenge instead of subject related challenges sometimes.

How this work? easy, if you're new here in DPC and never had ribbon before, you'll be able to enter to that challenge and only new members without ribbon will be able to vote for those.

why? because this place supposed to be a encouraging place, but for some it started to be a discouraging place instead... and I think new people who are starting photography think they will never get high votes or ribbons. Remember this photo?

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/4/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_106.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/4/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_106.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
8.6

I am not asking everyone should get that high vote, but let's have challenges once a while which might bring some new paid members... and make this website an encouraging place once again.

I have nothing to gain from this idea and if you think other wise I hope you'll receive the smallest box (filled with nuts) for the Christmas }:-\

ok... that's it... everyone, go away.. find something to do now.
12/21/2011 07:27:15 AM · #2
Not sure what I think of this as I believe the competition promotes personal growth. But maybe a rare special challenge every so often (like perhaps a master free study and the opposite as well) but I don't think we should limit voting, it is becoming scarce as is.

Also I think a lot of what new members can get and take from the site has more to do with what they put in such as messaging members they look up to and getting critiques. I believe in general life there are too many people that have the social media syndrome, they want to post photos and get the great pic, nice work blah blah comments that do nothing to encourage growth rather than have a critical eye offer help.

In my first 10 challenges I received an average vote of 4.86217; the last ten challenges it was 5.8331. Much of that growth was practice but also so much of it was studying the shots of those that do well here and learning from them and asking for help, advice and hard critiques. And while success at dpc does not relate to success in real world photography or art alot of the technicals do ring true. So should we make it easier to score high or win a ribbon? I don't think so, that is too much like giving everyone who played on a team a trophy for nothing. A special Free Study or similar running along side a Masters Free Study or similar would be fun but I think everyone should be able to vote as they do now, imho.
12/21/2011 08:05:07 AM · #3
hmmm. so instead of expecting people to raise their level, we lower the bar for them. interesting concept.

I wonder how well this would translate to other areas, like education...
12/21/2011 08:25:40 AM · #4
And why not limit the voting range for the challenge to 8 to 10 while your at it to boost the feeling of those who enter....

Yeah...my response is very sarcastic but that is my initial gut reaction to this proposal.

When I started here almost 5 years ago, I was inspired by the best photogs on the site to improve. Having a challenge that the expectations are lower would not have interested me in the least.

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 08:34:44.
12/21/2011 08:27:55 AM · #5
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:

Not sure what I think of this as I believe the competition promotes personal growth. But maybe a rare special challenge every so often (like perhaps a master free study and the opposite as well) but I don't think we should limit voting, it is becoming scarce as is.

Also I think a lot of what new members can get and take from the site has more to do with what they put in such as messaging members they look up to and getting critiques. I believe in general life there are too many people that have the social media syndrome, they want to post photos and get the great pic, nice work blah blah comments that do nothing to encourage growth rather than have a critical eye offer help.

In my first 10 challenges I received an average vote of 4.86217; the last ten challenges it was 5.8331. Much of that growth was practice but also so much of it was studying the shots of those that do well here and learning from them and asking for help, advice and hard critiques. And while success at dpc does not relate to success in real world photography or art alot of the technicals do ring true. So should we make it easier to score high or win a ribbon? I don't think so, that is too much like giving everyone who played on a team a trophy for nothing. A special Free Study or similar running along side a Masters Free Study or similar would be fun but I think everyone should be able to vote as they do now, imho.


+1
graphers.
I agree with every single word. I hope that beginners could learn from the best photographers here and not only search for ribbons.

In any case there could be a challenge like that, but how can we know if a new member is a beginner in photography? Lots of new members are already very good photographers. But a challenge for the photographers with no ribbons could be a good idea - but with voting open to everyone IMHO.
12/21/2011 08:44:07 AM · #6
Originally posted by bassbone:

And why not limit the voting range for the challenge to 8 to 10 while your at it to boost the feeling of those who enter....

Yeah...my response is very sarcastic but that is my initial gut reaction to this proposal.

When I started here almost 5 years ago, I was inspired by the best photogs on the site to improve. Having a challenge that the expectations are lower would not have interested me in the least.


who wants to win a medal in a handicapped race. I've been here almost two years and i agree with this. It was making my images look as good as what i saw that was the driving force, and still is, behind my motivation. when i nearly got that first ribbon its was a rush all during voting week and when i finally got a ribbon it felt great. to say what you propose would have taken the away from the experience is an understatement.
12/21/2011 09:05:56 AM · #7
Originally posted by mike_311:

hmmm. so instead of expecting people to raise their level, we lower the bar for them. interesting concept.

I wonder how well this would translate to other areas, like education...

Already done that in the U.S., which is why we now have teachers that can't spell or construct a grammatically correct sentence.
My apologies to all who are or know competent teachers - thankfully there are still quite a few out there.
12/21/2011 09:07:36 AM · #8
Originally posted by mike_311:

hmmm. so instead of expecting people to raise their level, we lower the bar for them. interesting concept.

I wonder how well this would translate to other areas, like education...


This is not a school, because we don't have classes, everyone from first starter to pros enters to the challenges. When this site first started (looking at the images) everyone was a beginner. So, they voted higher and impressed by almost every image... Years went by, and very good pros started to join, and very good photos started to entered. There still are starters (first grades, for your comment) running with pros. I am not saying NOT learning from them, that's good thing, but what is the goal here? Getting higher votes and a ribbon. DP"Challenge" not DP"School". However getting there is now much difficult, which makes it discouraging.

...I am not offering to change the whole system. Just once a while, maybe once a month a beginners challenge would be nice. New members (probably year long or newer) with no ribbons. Voting only between those guys will be higher, just like DPC once young, that also will encourage new members, and people to join.

Ok, I said enough. I am sure you all disagree with everything I say, nothing unusual here...

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 09:08:48.
12/21/2011 09:15:10 AM · #9
I can't understand why for you the score is so important. I wouldn't like an 8 that I don't deserve. I'd prefer a 6 from Gyaban than a 10 from mr. Pincopallino :)
12/21/2011 09:17:36 AM · #10
easy there, it was a joke.

I can see the point you are making but the issue here is that the images used to get voted higher. Relatively speaking, the image you linked doesn't hold up against the current crop, but it did hold up against its competition.

if you make the ribbons easier to get you will be diluting their worth and if people are getting discouraged they need to either up their game or quit.

holding everyone to the same high standard makes us all better.
12/21/2011 09:24:44 AM · #11
Originally posted by mike_311:

...holding everyone to the same high standard makes us all better.


You may think that, but I disagree. Goal here to achieve higher votes, which starters won't get most likely, and get a ribbon, also very difficult for new photographers... and I am not saying let's change the whole system, once a while challenge, maybe once a month, should do the trick. Pros go sideline and watch others fight within their weights. That will not change "makes us better" comment at all.
12/21/2011 09:25:54 AM · #12
I suggested this when I first joined DPC - a beginners challenge to compete against my peers rather than against all the great ribbon winners and experienced photogs (look back at challenges over the last year or two and most of the ribbons are won by a small group of people - that makes it very daunting for people to jump in, and we do have an issue with the numbers of new entrants at the moment).

At the time one of the most voiced concerns was that if prople won ribbons in those beginners challenges, it would devalue the ribbon system overall. I never really saw how myself as people would only ever be able to earn 1 ribbon this way before being automatically excluded from future beginner challenges.

But now I have a wizard idea!

Let's introduce a GREEN ribbon :-)

Green to denote a newbie, and on the profile page would rank below yellow. That way everyone has the chance to earn 1 green ribbon and it doesn't devalue from the existing ribbon structure.
12/21/2011 09:32:50 AM · #13
Originally posted by lawrysimm:

...At the time one of the most voiced concerns was that if prople won ribbons in those beginners challenges, it would devalue the ribbon system overall....


If a ribbon won't get more sparkly on "Experts Challenge", it won't look dimmer with "Beginners" challenge once a month. And the green ribbon thing! let's others say something about that one.

I offer once a month, because you want to encourage starters and get more members here... so ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/1.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/1.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Langdon also could afford his time to achieve our other goals/changes for DPC.
12/21/2011 09:36:18 AM · #14
Originally posted by lawrysimm:


But now I have a wizard idea!

Let's introduce a GREEN ribbon :-)

Green to denote a newbie, and on the profile page would rank below yellow. That way everyone has the chance to earn 1 green ribbon and it doesn't devalue from the existing ribbon structure.


+1

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 09:37:04.
12/21/2011 09:39:51 AM · #15
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Originally posted by mike_311:

...holding everyone to the same high standard makes us all better.


You may think that, but I disagree. Goal here to achieve higher votes, which starters won't get most likely, and get a ribbon, also very difficult for new photographers... and I am not saying let's change the whole system, once a while challenge, maybe once a month, should do the trick. Pros go sideline and watch others fight within their weights. That will not change "makes us better" comment at all.


I don't undertand your last comment ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' FocusPoint about how your proposal gets at achieving higher scores.

Many voters have set standards for voting and scoring and your proposal does nothing to change how people on DPC vote. My snide comment before about changing the voting range from the current 1-10 to an inflated 8-10 would be more realistic way to increase scores than limiting the entries and the voters.

To my point on voting, if I vote in a challenge that has 100 entries and all the images blow me away, I wouldn't be above giving every image a 10. If on the other hand, each entry in a challenge is poorly photographed and delivered and has no connection to the challenge, I would likely not give any image higher than a 3. By having a 'Newbie Challenge', you are not impacting the voting preferences of the voters, just the number of entries, the experience of the entrants, and the pool of voters.

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 09:41:03.
12/21/2011 09:41:33 AM · #16
Kind of reminds me of kids soccer where "everyone is a winner" and everyone gets a trophy. At the end of the day, does trophy mean anything, or does it do more harm than good.

If I could win a Ribbon in a handicapped contest, does that really help me grow as a photographer? Did I learn anything?

As much as I would like to win a ribbon one day, I would rather win it knowing I beat the best, or not win it at all. That slim chance of ever doing so is what drives me to get better and better. Every challenge, trying to close the gap between me and the ones at the top. Some days I succeed, other days I fail, but I never stop learning. That's what counts.

12/21/2011 09:45:57 AM · #17
Originally posted by bassbone:

...I don't understand your last comment ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' FocusPoint about how your proposal gets at achieving higher scores...


Higher scores for beginner photos, not for the pro photos. Right now, where 5 lies, might be 7 with that kind of challenge. Which, encourages more beginners and new members. also, to get 7 for the 5 now, because we pros seen it all, I suggest voting between the beginners and new members. Otherwise it will be still stay in 5s and get a ribbon... which I think is not that encouraging either.
12/21/2011 09:48:33 AM · #18
Originally posted by gcoulson:

Kind of reminds me of kids soccer where "everyone is a winner" and everyone gets a trophy. At the end of the day, does trophy mean anything, or does it do more harm than good.

If I could win a Ribbon in a handicapped contest, does that really help me grow as a photographer? Did I learn anything?

As much as I would like to win a ribbon one day, I would rather win it knowing I beat the best, or not win it at all. That slim chance of ever doing so is what drives me to get better and better. Every challenge, trying to close the gap between me and the ones at the top. Some days I succeed, other days I fail, but I never stop learning. That's what counts.


You really have to read the whole thing here. I HATE those soccer games where no one wins. I want to see one team win always. If you started to soccer, would you want to play against pro players for a trophy? what would you learn about that?
12/21/2011 09:51:01 AM · #19
Why is the trophy (ribbon) the be all and end all?
12/21/2011 09:53:56 AM · #20
As a new member i have just one concern. It seems people do not take the category into account while they are voting. There are so many perfectly composed photos that would be a 10 in a different category but i will give a 1 to because it does NOT convey what the challenge is for. This is very frustrating for me because when i see a challenge posted i take the category quite literal. I think voters need to start scoring photos more this way to weed out beautiful shots that DONT BELONG! Let someone achieve a score that is TRUE to the structure of the challenge they entered. And as for you photogs who are guilty of this practice of submitting such photos shame on you!
12/21/2011 09:55:12 AM · #21
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Originally posted by bassbone:

...I don't understand your last comment ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' FocusPoint about how your proposal gets at achieving higher scores...


Higher scores for beginner photos, not for the pro photos. Right now, where 5 lies, might be 7 with that kind of challenge. Which, encourages more beginners and new members. also, to get 7 for the 5 now, because we pros seen it all, I suggest voting between the beginners and new members. Otherwise it will be still stay in 5s and get a ribbon... which I think is not that encouraging either.


Again, how are you going to make that happen? By having fewer voters and less experienced entrants, how are you going to get higher scores?
12/21/2011 09:58:04 AM · #22
I have not ribboned yet, or been in top ten, but I vote on every single image in just about every single competition since I have been here. I don't think there needs to be a curve, or a new bar. I enjoy knowing that the pros are pros, and I have a lot to learn to score what they do :) I read their techniques, and if/when there is ever a critique of any of my images I do listen and try to do better the next time.

So from a new guy with no awards or mentions yet, I say let's leave the scoring/challenges the way they are as it just means I need to learn more, and I have been since I got here thanks to all of you. The only thing I will say however... I am astonished after a challenge is over and the number of votes received isn't equal to even the amount of entries in the contest... I would figure it should be at least 1:1 in that regard.

Just my 2 bits.
12/21/2011 10:05:23 AM · #23
Originally posted by bassbone:

...Again, how are you going to make that happen? By having fewer voters and less experienced entrants, how are you going to get higher scores?


It's got to be my accent.

"I suggest voting between the beginners and new members. Otherwise it will be still stay in 5s and get a ribbon..."

I am sure there will be enough voting between beginners. It's not unusual to get low entries here, happens all the time.
12/21/2011 10:07:47 AM · #24
Originally posted by FocusPoint:



If you started to soccer, would you want to play against pro players for a trophy? what would you learn about that?
probably that you need to play better or try another sport if its too hard.
12/21/2011 10:08:58 AM · #25
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Originally posted by bassbone:

...Again, how are you going to make that happen? By having fewer voters and less experienced entrants, how are you going to get higher scores?


It's got to be my accent.

"I suggest voting between the beginners and new members. Otherwise it will be still stay in 5s and get a ribbon..."

I am sure there will be enough voting between beginners. It's not unusual to get low entries here, happens all the time.


I understand your proposal...newbies only. But, again, how does this get at your goal of higher scores?

You initially talked about how you wanted to allow new/ non-ribbon winners to experience the joys of higher scores and ribbons. I understand that three non-ribbon winners are going to get those in such a challenge, but the voting scores has not been addressed by your proposal.

I will try to ask the same question another way: Are you going to require that the voters in this challenge artificially inflate their scores given?
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