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12/21/2011 10:11:10 AM · #26
what you are proposing isnt going to increase scores, but people will get ribbons with lower scores. since the same people will still be comparing the images to the others they see.

what your really want is a tiered system. where after you get so many ribbons you move to the next tier
12/21/2011 10:13:17 AM · #27
Originally posted by bassbone:

...Are you going to require that the voters in this challenge artificially inflate their scores given?


Oh boy. It's the psychology. As I mentioned on my original post, our bar has raised because we are not impressed that easy anymore and started to give low votes to level of images. Now, where we, older members here, are not impressed a lot, new photographers will be, and they will automatically vote higher (that's the idea at least). Having vote between the beginners and new members should achieve that without bringing other rules you suggested.
12/21/2011 10:14:39 AM · #28
Originally posted by mike_311:

...what your really want is a tiered system. where after you get so many ribbons you move to the next tier


I also suggested that in the past, but doing that is much more complicated than my new suggestion here.
12/21/2011 10:40:59 AM · #29
Originally posted by mike_311:

what you are proposing isnt going to increase scores, but people will get ribbons with lower scores. since the same people will still be comparing the images to the others they see.

what your really want is a tiered system. where after you get so many ribbons you move to the next tier


I have been a member of DPC for 2 years. However, 1 year of that membership was almost six years ago. . .while the other has been this past year. That's right, a big giant gap in between.

What I can tell people (or remind people who have been here for a long period) is this: the expectations of a picture have gone through the sky--justifiably as quality has improved over time here at DPC. I can also say that as this effect has taken hold so have our standard number of votes and participants crashed through the floor per challenge. There can be little doubt these facts are somehow inter-related. This not only hurts the site and the money available to the owner for upgrades etc., but also harms the community by ridding itself of many potential members.

Trying to find a solution to this problem--be it a tiered voting system with a minor and/or major league, or having a noob contest occasionally couldn't hurt. I don't know if I would want a green ribbon on my page. . .I'm an elitist bastard that way. . .but, there are many people who might be more willing stay on the site if every photo they submitted was not a 4.8. Don't get me wrong, I don't think poor photos should get great scores, but there is a marked difference between a new photographer and even someone like me after some experience on the site. People need encouragment on occasion, and nor does this make them weak willed people. A tiered system, in effect would create the environment of sustaining high quality (a major league forum) while allowing the newer or less skilled photogs to compete in a minor league level where the quality is similar. Eventually as their quality improves they move on. It makes sense to me.

Or maybe I just miss the days when a standard contest had over 300 entrants, and almost as many voters as opposed to the 80 to 120 we seem to average anymore.
12/21/2011 10:45:04 AM · #30
Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Originally posted by bassbone:

...Are you going to require that the voters in this challenge artificially inflate their scores given?


Oh boy. It's the psychology. As I mentioned on my original post, our bar has raised because we are not impressed that easy anymore and started to give low votes to level of images. Now, where we, older members here, are not impressed a lot, new photographers will be, and they will automatically vote higher (that's the idea at least). Having vote between the beginners and new members should achieve that without bringing other rules you suggested.


I did a bit of homework to get at your 'psychology' comment.

Of the people that most recently joined the site as registered users or members, I reviewed the scoring averages of those that have given at least 5 votes. Here are their averages
6.3, 6.0, 5.7, 4.7, 7.8 (5 votes given), 5.0, 5.7, 3.55, 5.31.

It seems from this, that those newbies are in general not overly amazed at the work compared to those that are long standing members of DPC.

You may need to rethink how you intend to get those high scores given to newbies....

And to make one final comment on this subject...I am fine with a non-ribbon winner challenge. Why not have more opportunities for everyone to win some bling.

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 10:57:01.
12/21/2011 10:50:27 AM · #31
This whole idea was discussed ad nauseum not too long ago, I'm not really for the idea, but, playing devils advocate we do have a Masters challenge for ribbon winners at times so why not vice-versa?
12/21/2011 10:58:28 AM · #32
How *dare* you call out our Great Leader's photo as being somehow unworthy of an 8.6 !!!
12/21/2011 11:06:49 AM · #33
Originally posted by bassbone:

...I did a bit of homework to get at your 'psychology' comment.

Of the people that most recently joined the site as registered users or members, I reviewed the scoring averages of those that have given at least 5 votes. Here are their averages
6.3, 6.0, 5.7, 4.7, 7.8 (5 votes given), 5.0, 5.7, 3.55, 5.31.

It seems from this, that those newbies are in general not overly amazed at the work compared to those that are long standing members of DPC...


it still is the "psychology" because new people will not try to vote comparing to the great photos, rather to less great photos (ideally) and that will change the routine (that's the psychology at least). Just seeing "Beginners Challenge" in subject line should set the bar lower automatically... that would not affect old members too much (I am pretty sure about that) but new members and beginners the most.
12/21/2011 11:33:58 AM · #34
but if they are still able to compete with the big boys, wont there interpretation still be skewed? they'll just be handing out ribbons to lower scored photos.
12/21/2011 11:54:47 AM · #35
We can call them 'Sympathy Ribbons'
12/21/2011 12:07:59 PM · #36
Beginner would be a great challenge topic, but it should be open to everyone.
12/21/2011 12:54:44 PM · #37
Ok, I've read this whole thing and this is what I have gleaned from it and are my opinions only and directed at no one in particular:

* This is a learning site...thus don't dilute the learning process by making the learning easier for those new to the site.
New does NOT always equal...new to photography!

*If you don't know or need help....ASK QUESTIONS. I still do! :P (Everyone thinks I'm a moron, but who cares, lol!!!)

* The voting process for some is no longer to utilize 1-10, but sometimes has been bastardized to their own "terms", while still participating in challenges, hoping for that good score. You reap what you sow, so if you want a flipping 6-7+ score, you have to vote others at least that high when you vote on THEIR images.

* People are getting so hung up on numbers and ego stroking of late that they try to game the system. By this I mean, voting on a portion of the challenge entries and only those they will vote high to keep their own voting stat high. (Personally, I vote every single photo in a challenge I vote or it isn't a fair exercise and true to the voting system.)

* This is a learning site...thus don't dilute the learning process by making the learning easier for those new to the site.
New does NOT always equal...new to photography!

* As the site has grown, so has the talent of the photographers that have been here for awhile. Very few jumped into blue ribbons immediately and often as a new member. Practice! Practice! Practice!
(I do agree that many of those ribboning these days do NOT leave helpful (or any) comments on other's photographs, nor do they give any insight as to the process of the shot and that is a huge miss for those trying to learn.)

* As the site and talent here has grown, the scores in challenges still continue to climb. It's not like nothing ever gets a 7+ score, but the quality of those newer high scores shows a growth in the photographers and the competition.

* This is a learning site...utilizing as PART of the site, competition. It isn't the end all, be all of DPC and for those here only for that reason....beef up your game if you want a ribbon! Otherwise lurk or hit the side challenges as another way to improve.

* Commenting is down/lame of late and again, some are here for the ego stroking only. (If you join for this reason, I suggest Flickr instead.) Comments are one of the very best ways for others to learn and it CAN be an ego stroker, but we need to figure out a way for more critiquing (good and bad) rather than making people feel good.

* Equipment and software has also become better, thus giving even the least experienced here a boost in that the overall quality of images now being produced has the potential to be much better than it was 5 years ago. Learn your equipment and your photography will probably improve!

* This is a learning site...perhaps the stat many should focus first and foremost before challenges and average is the number of images viewed! Take a trip around the site, look at the images others produce, both challenge and non-challenge and try to absorb it. Fave those whose style (or lack there of, lol) appeals to you and then try
to emulate them. Fave photographs as well.

* Bottom line, this site is not TOTALLY about the ribbons and the scores, although that is part of the learning process. I've gotten a top 10 finish once by default, and I've lately been improving my average, but my photographs are improving by my standards as well as those voting the challenges. There is far too much useable information on DPC and elsewhere to "dumb down" the process for the sake of gaining more members. If we need to do this for someone to join, they probably aren't going to be the type of participating member desired to continue the site.

I'm tired of the sound of my own voice.....

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 17:49:40.
12/21/2011 01:09:11 PM · #38
Leo, I do understand the inspiration behind this suggestion. However, I have to disagree with you on a number of points:

1. ANY challenge whatsoever, whether it awards ribbons or not, be it for pros, newbies, whatever, is going to have the exact same issues: someone finishes at the top, someone finishes on the bottom. How will the newbies, who participated in the challenge just for them, feel about finishing last? How does that offer encouragement?
2. Ribbons is the only way to get validation. You did not say this, but it is clearly implied. I could not disagree more. For those who don't feel their shots are good enough for challenges, there are side challenges. They can also post a thread in the forums, seeking feedback. AND, they can reach out via PM to ask for personal feedback. I've done it NUMEROUS times, and am often asked for (and provide) my opinion on people's images.
3. DPC is a CHALLENGE site, not to mention a COMPETITIVE site. And yet the fact is that it offers SO much more. We cannot be responsible for other people's reticence in taking advantage of what else DPC has to offer. If they really only want "that's pretty" comments, then they have 500px, Flickr, and Facebook, to name just three other options.
4. Limiting who can vote (in ANY challenge) is always a slippery slope. And I don't know how you would enforce that.
5. (added after ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/1031.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/1031.gif', '/') + 1) . ' GeneralE's post) DPC ribbons are not the only way to receive recognition on DPC. Participants are also awarded all sorts of PH-style honors, and most usually for images that do not score "well" at all.

Finally, you should be posting this on the Satisfaction site. All this discussion would be more fruitful there, and will certainly be guaranteed to be read by those that make these sorts of decisions.

ETA that it looks like bergiekat beat me to posting most of what I'm saying, as well :-)

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 13:37:12.
12/21/2011 01:11:30 PM · #39
Originally posted by Alexkc:

I can't understand why for you the score is so important. I wouldn't like an 8 that I don't deserve. I'd prefer a 6 from Gyaban than a 10 from mr. Pincopallino :)


I'm right there with you brother! And yes...I had to look up Pincopallino!....great stuff! :-)
12/21/2011 01:12:59 PM · #40
Originally posted by dtremain:

Originally posted by mike_311:

hmmm. so instead of expecting people to raise their level, we lower the bar for them. interesting concept.

I wonder how well this would translate to other areas, like education...

Already done that in the U.S., which is why we now have teachers Presidents that can't spell or construct a grammatically correct sentence.

"Fixed" your previous reference ... ;-)

Originally posted by FocusPoint:

Originally posted by mike_311:

...holding everyone to the same high standard makes us all better.


You may think that, but I disagree. Goal here to achieve higher votes, which starters won't get most likely, and get a ribbon, also very difficult for new photographers...

I strongly disagree -- I think the GOAL is to become a "better" photographer (see the "About" page), the challenges are merely the format or mechanism used. I also think it's wrong to equate "good photography" with "high DPC score" -- especially for newbies; there are plenty of great photos which would score poorly here.

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 13:19:24.
12/21/2011 03:27:19 PM · #41
In regard to the OP - www.worth1000.com does this already. I think it is valid and helpful. I like their tiered system but don't like their pay method and don't know much about the community.

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 15:27:31.
12/21/2011 04:18:12 PM · #42
Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by bassbone:

And why not limit the voting range for the challenge to 8 to 10 while your at it to boost the feeling of those who enter....

Yeah...my response is very sarcastic but that is my initial gut reaction to this proposal.

When I started here almost 5 years ago, I was inspired by the best photogs on the site to improve. Having a challenge that the expectations are lower would not have interested me in the least.


who wants to win a medal in a handicapped race. I've been here almost two years and i agree with this. It was making my images look as good as what i saw that was the driving force, and still is, behind my motivation. when i nearly got that first ribbon its was a rush all during voting week and when i finally got a ribbon it felt great. to say what you propose would have taken the away from the experience is an understatement.


@mike_311

"who wants to win a medal in a handicapped race?" - Handicapped people? If you look at DPC's challenges as a competition, a sport, which the heavy hitters on this site do, then Leo's suggestion has merit. In sports and in most competitions you have different classes based on skill, equipment, gender, etc. When you're starting out and have low end equipment, no "instant wow" subjects to shoot, no photoshop or "instant wow processing" from plugins like NIK, Topaz, etc, then you're at an EXTREME disadvantage. We need to stop thinking that it's just the skill propelling ribbon hogs to victories because it most certainly isn't.

@bassbone

I don't get your comment at all. Inspiration comes from viewing the work not competing along side it. That's measuring your work against others. Both of which you could still do under Leo's suggestion, if I understood it correctly. He wasn't saying lets do away with the challenges as they are now and replace his version. He simply suggested an extra challenge with the added rule about there being no ribbon winners allowed, which is no different than the type of rules we used with the Master challenges.

Message edited by author 2011-12-21 16:20:37.
12/21/2011 04:30:09 PM · #43
Originally posted by GeneralE:

I also think it's wrong to equate "good photography" with "high DPC score" -- especially for newbies; there are plenty of great photos which would score poorly here.


True but that's a non-starter for a lot of people. Makes things too complicated. You might have to know something first. No, score is much easier.
12/21/2011 04:37:04 PM · #44
To add to my previous comment, I would like to thank & say I think it is great that some of the more seasoned members of this site take the time to give personal awards to photos in challenges that may or may not have scored well but in their eyes were good shots (IE: Posthumous Ribbons Thread). It is fun to go through there and see the ones chosen, and even more fun if you happen to get a ribbon however unofficial it may be :)

I would be against a tiered system as I said before, I am learning and enjoying being a part of the site. There is definitely some folks on here that are habitual icons with their works, but I enjoy seeing their photos for sure, and I appreciate it when they offer some info in their descriptions (when the do). One idea to toss out is much like when you vote… you must vote 20% to count, what about for those submitting in the challenges, for you image to submit you must in turn vote on a certain %? Just an idea to help the vote deficit :)
12/21/2011 05:27:29 PM · #45
The idea and suggestion was so simple. Even ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/1.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/1.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Langdon can do this in a minute or so with some editing in DB code. All I asked was, have a challenge, maybe once a month nothing more, only new members (year or newer) and no ribbon winners enter... an open challenge, advance editing. Everything else stays the same. This way people who think can't get anywhere and don't bother to join would have chance (which is the idea here, no matter what you guys say... it is called DP"CHALLENGE" and winners awarded with ribbons).

My reason entering challenges here to get as good as scores and hopefully win more ribbons. Learning comes with the work.
12/21/2011 06:13:15 PM · #46
I am all for a "newbie" challenge run alongside something like a Masters FS. But I don't think it should be a regular occurrence, maybe a couple times a year. What about setting up a side challenge with the criteria you have purposed and offer your own ribbons to see if there is even much interest?
12/21/2011 06:29:38 PM · #47
I think the whole crux of this issue is how to attract new participants to the site.

Things need to change, and hopefully Langdon's new board for suggestions for site improvements will help. There seems to be a lot of resistance to change manifestisting itself in this thread. I'm not talking about change just for the sake of it, but without change we stagnate. If we don't open ourselves up to new ideas and new ways of thinking, the site will continue it's steady decline as the good photogs move on to pastures new, and no new ones fall in to take the place.

We should all still have our standards, and no-one is talking about lowering the bar, but we have to make it easier for new blood to participate and be encouraged than it currently is.
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