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02/22/2012 09:54:55 PM · #1
Guns don't kill people, people kill people
So this 9-year-old should get the book thrown at him. It was not the fault of the inert bit of metal he brought to school. He then pointed this inert bit of metal at the 8-year-old and activated it.

The 8-year-old girl is in critical condition right now up there in the Seattle area.

So, tell me, why don't we enforce gun laws already on the books, and insist that guns are handled only by responsible citizens? why?

Okay, I'll stand aside now, and let the barrage fire.
02/22/2012 10:14:38 PM · #2
honestly, i know this i terrible.
but it is up to the people to keep their rights...
taking away the right to bear arms would take away a little bit of freedom, and no matter how small it may be that may grow..
it is not guns that should be punished, but the parents.
02/22/2012 10:26:04 PM · #3
We had these discussions before. The bottom line is that Americans have been brought up with certain ideas about freedom that the rest of the world just does not relate it. It is always weird for me to read about the "right to bear arms" notion when so many lunatics are walking around and using this right. How can you blame a mentally sick person for shooting to death 80 people? It must have been the fault of the shop that sold the guns to him! I just cannot understand nor believe this aspect of the American culture!
02/22/2012 10:32:29 PM · #4
Actually, most of us are idiots.

02/22/2012 10:38:01 PM · #5
Originally posted by MargaretN:

We had these discussions before. The bottom line is that Americans have been brought up with certain ideas about freedom that the rest of the world just does not relate it. It is always weird for me to read about the "right to bear arms" notion when so many lunatics are walking around and using this right. How can you blame a mentally sick person for shooting to death 80 people? It must have been the fault of the shop that sold the guns to him! I just cannot understand nor believe this aspect of the American culture!


+1

This is something people outside US can't understand. This concept of freedom related to weapons scares me. Guns are created to kill people and not to give them freedom... at least in my European vision. But I can say that here, where we don't have that amount of weapons, we have much less murders.
02/22/2012 10:39:26 PM · #6
Guns are machines, neither good nor evil.

Automobiles are also machines. Both are very dangerous if in the wrong hands. If the 9 year old had taken his parents car the would be less hew and cry, but she would be just as injured. Our society lokes to do everything except accept responsibility. The parents are responsible for not properly securing their gun and ammunition. I'm no lawyer, but I would vote for criminal megligemce and child endangerment, in this case. I'd also suggest CPS look at taking the child out of the home. Leaving gums and ammo where a child can get them is a recipe for disaster.

I do not see rights as absolute. If you are a convicted felon, you lose your right to vote, and possess weapons, among other things. The parents should never be allowed to own guns again. They have demonstrated their inability to properly secure the gums in their possession.
02/22/2012 10:40:48 PM · #7
Originally posted by MargaretN:

We had these discussions before. The bottom line is that Americans have been brought up with certain ideas about freedom that the rest of the world just does not relate it. It is always weird for me to read about the "right to bear arms" notion when so many lunatics are walking around and using this right. How can you blame a mentally sick person for shooting to death 80 people? It must have been the fault of the shop that sold the guns to him! I just cannot understand nor believe this aspect of the American culture!


I couldn't agree with you more, and I'm American.
02/22/2012 10:41:44 PM · #8
Originally posted by ambaker:

They have demonstrated their inability to properly secure the gums in their possession.

What did they need the guns for in the first place??
02/22/2012 10:44:46 PM · #9
I comes as a bit of a shock to read this, but honestly, the article is a bit lacking as for details.
So the reasons why a 9 years old might find himself in possession of a gun are not stated, and we are left speculating..
Did he get it from a usually locked drawer while dad wasn't looking?
Does his family encourage playing with firearms?
Are his parents criminals, gullible, simply idiots, innocent?
Or did he get the gun somewhere else? A 9 year old?

I would dispute that all children of that age have a clear idea of what death his, or the real consequences of pulling a trigger, or that they eventually care.
Some will, not all. Many might express whatever problems they have in ways that are nothing short of pure hysteria. They will kick, bite, throw stones, say awful things as they come to their mind.

Perhaps I'll come across as the usual foreigner that makes things too simple and knows nothing of the USA, but I think that firearms are not for responsible citizens. Firearms are for nobody but a very limited number of people with very clear, demonstrable reasons for owning them, and a licence specifying when they are authorized to carry them.
I mean, I happened to read fascinating discussions between people bragging that they have bought 4 or 5 $400 scopes because they fall apart soon, such is the calibre and kick of the automatic guns they are mounted on. What are they teaching to their children, by example and explicitly, one might wonder?
That's a bit mental.
02/22/2012 10:50:05 PM · #10
Originally posted by MargaretN:

We had these discussions before. The bottom line is that Americans have been brought up with certain ideas about freedom that the rest of the world just does not relate it. It is always weird for me to read about the "right to bear arms" notion when so many lunatics are walking around and using this right. How can you blame a mentally sick person for shooting to death 80 people? It must have been the fault of the shop that sold the guns to him! I just cannot understand nor believe this aspect of the American culture!


Stop being hysterical and look at what you've written. The mentally ill, felons etc. by law, do not have the right to bear arms. So, your post is senseless. As a country, drunk drivers cause so many deaths. We should save far more lives by outlawing cars. If you take away the right to bear arms the only ones with guns will be the criminals who, by definition don't care about breaking the law. They will have absolute power. What would you do if someone broke into your house? Don't say "Oh, I'd call 911." because the police simply take too long unless you live next to the police station. You can choose not to defend yourself if you like.

Were it not for the right to bear arms, there is no doubt in my mind, I would be dead.

Message edited by author 2012-02-22 22:52:01.
02/22/2012 10:54:41 PM · #11
Originally posted by Spork99:

Stop being hysterical and look at what you've written. The mentally ill, felons etc. by law, do not have the right to bear arms. So, your post is senseless. As a country, drunk drivers cause so many deaths. We should save far more lives by outlawing cars. If you take away the right to bear arms the only ones with guns will be the criminals who, by definition don't care about breaking the law. They will have absolute power. What would you do if someone broke into your house? Don't say "Oh, I'd call 911." because the police simply take too long unless you live next to the police station. You can choose not to defend yourself if you like.

Were it not for the right to bear arms, there is no doubt in my mind, I would be dead.


I completely disagree. In countries where it is much more difficult to have a gun there are less murders. How do you explain that?
02/22/2012 10:57:20 PM · #12
Originally posted by ambaker:

Guns are machines, neither good nor evil.
The parents should never be allowed to own guns again. They have demonstrated their inability to properly secure the gums in their possession.


Guns are devices designed to kill, specifically and uniquely.
Their widespread and legalized diffusion in a nation which outlaws manslaughter sounds like a bit of a contradiction.
Likewise, in a number of other countries a similar situation would configure a criminal, albeit indirect, responsibility on the parents. Therefore, a good chance to wind up in jail. The fact that such parents should not be allowed any firearm and should be subjected to frequent controls by the police, well, I hope it can given for granted
02/22/2012 11:03:18 PM · #13
Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Stop being hysterical and look at what you've written. The mentally ill, felons etc. by law, do not have the right to bear arms. So, your post is senseless. As a country, drunk drivers cause so many deaths. We should save far more lives by outlawing cars. If you take away the right to bear arms the only ones with guns will be the criminals who, by definition don't care about breaking the law. They will have absolute power. What would you do if someone broke into your house? Don't say "Oh, I'd call 911." because the police simply take too long unless you live next to the police station. You can choose not to defend yourself if you like.

Were it not for the right to bear arms, there is no doubt in my mind, I would be dead.


I completely disagree. In countries where it is much more difficult to have a gun there are less murders. How do you explain that?


Less gun murders, perhaps. Countries with stricter gun laws tend to have higher overall crime rates.

If you're talking about countries like the UK, the murder rates were already low before the strict gun laws went into effect.

Here in the US, cities where there are lax gun laws are among those with the highest murder rates.
02/22/2012 11:04:31 PM · #14
There are two families up in Seattle who will hurt for a long time.

In a small town in upstate New York, a long time ago, my husband's father taught girls and boys how to handle guns including rifles. Eventually they named the place where he taught this art "The Bob Steele Memorial rifle range." It's not there anymore. Probably replaced by a bunch of condos.

Still, at that time (and perhaps still) in New York state to carry a gun, you had to get a license you had to prove proficiency,and have your picture and finger print taken and placed on it. Something like a driver's license, don't you know.

So, what's wrong with this picture? Why not do this now? what's the harm. Just asking.

02/22/2012 11:07:22 PM · #15
Originally posted by mcaldo:

Originally posted by ambaker:

Guns are machines, neither good nor evil.
The parents should never be allowed to own guns again. They have demonstrated their inability to properly secure the gums in their possession.


Guns are devices designed to kill, specifically and uniquely.
Their widespread and legalized diffusion in a nation which outlaws manslaughter sounds like a bit of a contradiction.
Likewise, in a number of other countries a similar situation would configure a criminal, albeit indirect, responsibility on the parents. Therefore, a good chance to wind up in jail. The fact that such parents should not be allowed any firearm and should be subjected to frequent controls by the police, well, I hope it can given for granted


No. Guns are designed for many purposes. One of which is to level the playing field between two otherwise mismatched opponents. Like a young mom with an infant whose home is broken into by two knife wielding assailants looking for money.
02/22/2012 11:07:37 PM · #16
Originally posted by Spork99:

[quote=MargaretN]

Were it not for the right to bear arms, there is no doubt in my mind, I would be dead.


Uhh, sorry, are you basically saying that criminals broke into your house and you saved your life by killing them?
If that's the case, I a honestly sorry for what happened to you, I woudl never want to find myself in a situation like that.
However, this reminds of places like South Africa, no offence meant to the South Africans.
Places where the police presence and effectiveness is limited and criminality ferocious.

Perhaps you would need a stronger police presence, or the army to help out, if that's really the case.

02/22/2012 11:14:08 PM · #17
Originally posted by Spork99:

Less gun murders, perhaps. Countries with stricter gun laws tend to have higher overall crime rates.


Not only less gun murders. Here in Italy, not the safest place in the world compared with Finland, Sweden, Norway or Iceland, there are not so many murders. I would be scared at living in a place where everyone has a gun...
02/22/2012 11:15:13 PM · #18
Originally posted by MargaretN:

Originally posted by ambaker:

They have demonstrated their inability to properly secure the gums in their possession.

What did they need the guns for in the first place??


I don't think anyone said that they needed a gun. I don't know if they owned more than one gun. So guns, plural, may be incorrect. Do most people really need a car, particularly where public transit is available? Yet we let people who drive drunk, and hirt or kill others drive again. Many more people die each year as the result of alcohol related "accidents", yet there is much less emotion and call for change. We still sell alcohol to people who will be attempting to drive a car in the next few minutes, and nobody asks why people need alcohol away from home.

The real issue is that two little kids were involved in this tragedy. If it was a 29 year old boy and grl, it would never have gone beyond the local papers.

As a product of US education, I believe that law abiding citizens have the right to own leagal weapons, if they so chose. If they do not exercise that right responsibly, then it is subject to forefit.

I do find it interesting that every time a photographer is stopped or questioned by police, in the name of security, we are crticised for trampling on the rights of others, yet they wonder why our government has not seized all the guns...
02/22/2012 11:18:44 PM · #19
Responsible gun owners, such as myself, are disgusted by stories like this. But blaming the guns or people's right to own them, is myopic.
Gun laws o nothing but keep guns out of law abiding citizens hands. Criminals don't obey laws, that's why they're criminals.
02/22/2012 11:20:15 PM · #20
Originally posted by mcaldo:

Originally posted by Spork99:

[quote=MargaretN]

Were it not for the right to bear arms, there is no doubt in my mind, I would be dead.


Uhh, sorry, are you basically saying that criminals broke into your house and you saved your life by killing them?
If that's the case, I a honestly sorry for what happened to you, I woudl never want to find myself in a situation like that.
However, this reminds of places like South Africa, no offence meant to the South Africans.
Places where the police presence and effectiveness is limited and criminality ferocious.

Perhaps you would need a stronger police presence, or the army to help out, if that's really the case.


I did not kill the intruders, they put on their brown trousers and ran, but I was about a millisecond away from a firefight in my living room.

It's funny that you mention the police. While their presence is reassuring, they don't really prevent crimes except by chance. They deal with the aftermath. They simply cannot respond fast enough. When seconds count, the police are minutes away. If fact it was a police officer who recommended I get my permit.
02/22/2012 11:20:24 PM · #21
Can't win this one. Have to Ignore.
02/22/2012 11:21:03 PM · #22
Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Less gun murders, perhaps. Countries with stricter gun laws tend to have higher overall crime rates.


Not only less gun murders. Here in Italy, not the safest place in the world compared with Finland, Sweden, Norway or Iceland, there are not so many murders. I would be scared at living in a place where everyone has a gun...


You've been watching too many movies. We don't all run around carrying guns.

Personally, I've seen all the God Father movies, and I would be more afraid of living in Italy where everyone is in the Mafia. :-)
02/22/2012 11:23:47 PM · #23
Originally posted by sfalice:

There are two families up in Seattle who will hurt for a long time.

In a small town in upstate New York, a long time ago, my husband's father taught girls and boys how to handle guns including rifles. Eventually they named the place where he taught this art "The Bob Steele Memorial rifle range." It's not there anymore. Probably replaced by a bunch of condos.

Still, at that time (and perhaps still) in New York state to carry a gun, you had to get a license you had to prove proficiency,and have your picture and finger print taken and placed on it. Something like a driver's license, don't you know.

So, what's wrong with this picture? Why not do this now? what's the harm. Just asking.


No argument from me...
02/22/2012 11:25:13 PM · #24
Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Less gun murders, perhaps. Countries with stricter gun laws tend to have higher overall crime rates.


Not only less gun murders. Here in Italy, not the safest place in the world compared with Finland, Sweden, Norway or Iceland, there are not so many murders. I would be scared at living in a place where everyone has a gun...


You should be more scared in the UK.
02/22/2012 11:26:52 PM · #25
Originally posted by Alexkc:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Stop being hysterical and look at what you've written. The mentally ill, felons etc. by law, do not have the right to bear arms. So, your post is senseless. As a country, drunk drivers cause so many deaths. We should save far more lives by outlawing cars. If you take away the right to bear arms the only ones with guns will be the criminals who, by definition don't care about breaking the law. They will have absolute power. What would you do if someone broke into your house? Don't say "Oh, I'd call 911." because the police simply take too long unless you live next to the police station. You can choose not to defend yourself if you like.

Were it not for the right to bear arms, there is no doubt in my mind, I would be dead.


I completely disagree. In countries where it is much more difficult to have a gun there are less murders. How do you explain that?

I wonder what stats are used in different countries. I just looked at on report that showed Europe (for example), did not included Vehicular homicide, Involuntary homicide, etc. in there figures. However, the US did. This could skew the reports of how may homicides or murders per 100000 are calculated.
With over 310,000,000 people in the US, the rates per 100,000 have came down to less than 1964 levels. The report also showed Europe dropped as well but Central America has risen.
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